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PartyMan Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 Jan 2016 Posts: 963 Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Can’t complain about refs when you get your ass kicked. Maybe a close game is more justified, not a blowout. _________________ We pour this booze and we drink this booze because we think it's yummy. YUMMY! So over the tounge and down the throat to party in our tummys.
DOWN THE HOLA BITC*OLA!!! |
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Wino Star Player
Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 9674 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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PartyMan wrote: | Can’t complain about refs when you get your ass kicked. Maybe a close game is more justified, not a blowout. |
Nobody is trying to say the refs threw the game and we would have won if they hadn't. We played like krap and I believe everyone complaining about the refs are owning that fact.
But that doesn't make those kinds of blown calls OK. IF those calls would have been made AGAINST Wall, they would STILL NOT be OK. Between that horrible call that screwed Ball and the horrible calls favoring Harden, we have been treated like complete Schit and it sucks, it sucks whenever the refs blow calls this badly. It's not good for the game.
The other thing going on here is that the league is simply trying too hard to condone the BS going in with Houston. It is complete BS and the fans need to start filing complaints to the league about it, over and over and over and over until they get it through their big fat heads that this is BS and bad for the game. _________________ Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:27 am Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | activeverb wrote: | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | Nothing new. Karl Malone even wrote about it in his book. When he came to the Lakers he just stopped getting the calls he was accustomed to getting. It was pretty obvious with Steve Nash's body language the same thing happened with him when he came here. And now watching leBron he is absolutely perplexed. They just don't call the Lakers the same. Always has been that way, always will be that way. Just like in 2001 when the refs stole game 5 from us against the kings. |
The average number of free-throw attempts that Malone had in relation to his field-goal attempts was pretty consistent throughout most of his career. And it really was no different in Los Angeles than it was in Utah. So if this was malone's perception, the actual stats dont seem to support it |
Yeah. His usage rate plummeted after coming here, understandably so. So of course he would get fewer free throws.
Bad officiating is rampant in all games. There’s no conspiracy at play here. |
I'm not sure I would even call it bad officiating. I think the real answer is that when you have human beings refereeing an NBA game, they are simply going to miss a lot of calls because of angles, the speed of the game, etc.
I think two things are at work: (1) fans have unrealistic expectations for how accurate human beings can be refereeing NBA games. and (2) as always, fans of every team will perceive that they receive disproportionately bad treatment from the refs. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:07 am Post subject: |
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activeverb wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | activeverb wrote: | dont_be_a_wuss wrote: | Nothing new. Karl Malone even wrote about it in his book. When he came to the Lakers he just stopped getting the calls he was accustomed to getting. It was pretty obvious with Steve Nash's body language the same thing happened with him when he came here. And now watching leBron he is absolutely perplexed. They just don't call the Lakers the same. Always has been that way, always will be that way. Just like in 2001 when the refs stole game 5 from us against the kings. |
The average number of free-throw attempts that Malone had in relation to his field-goal attempts was pretty consistent throughout most of his career. And it really was no different in Los Angeles than it was in Utah. So if this was malone's perception, the actual stats dont seem to support it |
Yeah. His usage rate plummeted after coming here, understandably so. So of course he would get fewer free throws.
Bad officiating is rampant in all games. There’s no conspiracy at play here. |
I'm not sure I would even call it bad officiating. I think the real answer is that when you have human beings refereeing an NBA game, they are simply going to miss a lot of calls because of angles, the speed of the game, etc.
I think two things are at work: (1) fans have unrealistic expectations for how accurate human beings can be refereeing NBA games. and (2) as always, fans of every team will perceive that they receive disproportionately bad treatment from the refs. |
Agree. And to clarify, by "bad officiating" what I meant primarily is "missed calls". They occur in virtually every game. And you're right, the reason fans of a team perceive that they receive a disproportionate percentage of these missed calls is because they watch a disproportionate percentage of games. They're generally watching their own team's games and then a few of the other teams games if any at all. I don't watch every game myself, but, I pay for League Pass because I play DFS, and so I watch a lot of other team's games and there are missed calls in every game.
I also notice that a lot of the time, when a ref realizes they missed a call, they'll give you the benefit of the doubt on a subsequent bang bang play. Those are never shown of course, only the original miss.
If we just go into games telling ourselves, there are going to be a couple of blown calls today, and just accept that there is going to be an element of human error at times, it's not as frustrating although, when they occur on critical moments of the game (i.e. end of a close game) that is particularly infuritating and understandably so.
I think a big mistake they made was whistling "touch" fouls. Problem is, there is "touch" on nearly every drive and so you either need to disqualify teams for every skin to skin contact, or, let some go and call others and that judgment leads to error. |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:34 am Post subject: |
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I think most people with a brain won't point to that one John Wall foul as the reason for the loss.
My issue is that it seemed so obvious. Wondering why https://twitter.com/OfficialNBARefs hasnt responded to it. I guess cuz the game wasn't close? |
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The Juggernaut Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 4572
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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The NBA really needs to have more repercussions for poor officiating. Or at least more transparency for bad reffing. |
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BigGameHames Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015 Posts: 7982
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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epak wrote: | I think most people with a brain won't point to that one John Wall foul as the reason for the loss.
My issue is that it seemed so obvious. Wondering why https://twitter.com/OfficialNBARefs hasnt responded to it. I guess cuz the game wasn't close? |
That twitter account should be used to acknowledge mistakes like that play, not to criticize fans for being uneducated. With that said, the NBA thrives off fan interaction. |
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pokoy Moderator
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 14545
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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I know it was a bad game by the whole team and so the incident arguably wouldn't really have made a big difference in the outcome (though I think we probably just lose aggression knowing the refs will never reward us the way they would James Harden), but I'm really surprised there hasn't been a bigger stink raised by Luke or the front office or even the players about this play. Zo could have gotten seriously hurt, no one would have argued if they called a flagrant on that. Something to force the refs to answer wtf that ref was thinking on that? At least acknowledge the huge mistake? |
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.4 Starting Rotation
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 Posts: 702
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | I click on the link that the OP provided and it was a tweet about the refs donating tennis shoes to needy kids? |
This is the tweet he's referring to _________________ My face reading 90% of the posts on LG: |
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Annihilator Star Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2001 Posts: 4035
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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The Juggernaut wrote: | The NBA really needs to have more repercussions for poor officiating. Or at least more transparency for bad reffing. |
This is the main issue. On most plays in the NBA, a foul could be called; body contact is an unavoidable part of the game. Of course, if every single foul was called, the game would be unwatchable. So, the referees pick and choose which fouls to call. When referees get lazy and fall into a habit of calling fouls that favor certain players--when the exact same type of contact was not called a foul on another similar play--the game is no longer fair. Long-time watchers of the game consistently state that rookies don't get the calls that veterans and stars do. The bottom line is that the NBA needs to be more transparent--more like the NFL--in admitting when mistakes/inconsistencies are made by referees so that fans know that the league is trying to create a level playing field for all of its teams and players. _________________ “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
--Anonymous |
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LakersRGolden Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7910 Location: Lake Forest
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Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Annihilator wrote: | The Juggernaut wrote: | The NBA really needs to have more repercussions for poor officiating. Or at least more transparency for bad reffing. |
This is the main issue. On most plays in the NBA, a foul could be called; body contact is an unavoidable part of the game. Of course, if every single foul was called, the game would be unwatchable. So, the referees pick and choose which fouls to call. When referees get lazy and fall into a habit of calling fouls that favor certain players--when the exact same type of contact was not called a foul on another similar play--the game is no longer fair. Long-time watchers of the game consistently state that rookies don't get the calls that veterans and stars do. The bottom line is that the NBA needs to be more transparent--more like the NFL--in admitting when mistakes/inconsistencies are made by referees so that fans know that the league is trying to create a level playing field for all of its teams and players. |
So true.
1) Last minute of a quarter is different from the first 11.
2) Refs have to check who is the rook and who is a vet in 50/50 plays.
3) Home cooking is mostly the refs favoring the home team to keep butts in the seat.
4) Defenders don't get ticky tack fouls. Scorers get ft's if you say boogedy boo to them
5) Refs won't fix a bad call they know they made, but they will manufacture a makeup call later.
6) As a defender, if you jump on the perimeter, any contact is an automatic foul, but not if you don't jump. If your in the paint, not jumping is an automatic block, but if you jump, its called verticality and not a foul.
p.s. Since when is goaltending replay reviewable??? That one pissed me off. |
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eddiejonze Star Player
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 7192
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:18 am Post subject: |
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LakersRGolden wrote: | Annihilator wrote: | The Juggernaut wrote: | The NBA really needs to have more repercussions for poor officiating. Or at least more transparency for bad reffing. |
This is the main issue. On most plays in the NBA, a foul could be called; body contact is an unavoidable part of the game. Of course, if every single foul was called, the game would be unwatchable. So, the referees pick and choose which fouls to call. When referees get lazy and fall into a habit of calling fouls that favor certain players--when the exact same type of contact was not called a foul on another similar play--the game is no longer fair. Long-time watchers of the game consistently state that rookies don't get the calls that veterans and stars do. The bottom line is that the NBA needs to be more transparent--more like the NFL--in admitting when mistakes/inconsistencies are made by referees so that fans know that the league is trying to create a level playing field for all of its teams and players. |
So true.
1) Last minute of a quarter is different from the first 11.
2) Refs have to check who is the rook and who is a vet in 50/50 plays.
3) Home cooking is mostly the refs favoring the home team to keep butts in the seat.
4) Defenders don't get ticky tack fouls. Scorers get ft's if you say boogedy boo to them
5) Refs won't fix a bad call they know they made, but they will manufacture a makeup call later.
6) As a defender, if you jump on the perimeter, any contact is an automatic foul, but not if you don't jump. If your in the paint, not jumping is an automatic block, but if you jump, its called verticality and not a foul.
p.s. Since when is goaltending replay reviewable??? That one pissed me off. |
- the arbitrary nature of "over the back"
-3 second violation only gets called when the coach of the team on D starts yelling about it.
-opening tip violations: do you really have protractors and levels in your eyes to ascertain the ball was still "on its way up" clown?
-off arm hook only called half the time
-hanging on the rim when no player is near it
-etc etc etc. _________________ Creatures crawl in search of blood, To terrorize y'alls neighborhood. |
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PauPau Starting Rotation
Joined: 12 Jul 2018 Posts: 844
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:17 am Post subject: |
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James Harden's double step back was a thing of beauty! |
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JIFISH Star Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 9315 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:33 am Post subject: |
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It was during the playoffs of the Lakers first championship run with Phil, Kobe and Shaq that I concluded that great teams, championship-caliber teams, are able to win despite the officiating.
So bad officiating no longer upsets me as much as it once did.
I still don't like it.
But I've learned to tolerate it. _________________ I would rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question - Richard Feynman |
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Surfitall Star Player
Joined: 12 Feb 2002 Posts: 3829 Location: South Orange County
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:05 am Post subject: |
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JIFISH wrote: | It was during the playoffs of the Lakers first championship run with Phil, Kobe and Shaq that I concluded that great teams, championship-caliber teams, are able to win despite the officiating.
So bad officiating no longer upsets me as much as it once did.
I still don't like it.
But I've learned to tolerate it. |
In the playoffs I believe this to be true. Champions have to overcome the poorly officiated games. Like it or not, it’s a part of the game. It’s why it’s pretty rare for a clear underdog to win a championship in recent history. |
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LakersRGolden Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7910 Location: Lake Forest
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:59 am Post subject: |
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Surfitall wrote: | JIFISH wrote: | It was during the playoffs of the Lakers first championship run with Phil, Kobe and Shaq that I concluded that great teams, championship-caliber teams, are able to win despite the officiating.
So bad officiating no longer upsets me as much as it once did.
I still don't like it.
But I've learned to tolerate it. |
In the playoffs I believe this to be true. Champions have to overcome the poorly officiated games. Like it or not, it’s a part of the game. It’s why it’s pretty rare for a clear underdog to win a championship in recent history. |
So if 2 truly equal teams meet in the championships, you're ok with the refs determining the champion? Just because the losing team is not clearly more talented than the other team they couldn't beat the other team AND the refs? |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: |
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LakersRGolden wrote: | Surfitall wrote: | JIFISH wrote: | It was during the playoffs of the Lakers first championship run with Phil, Kobe and Shaq that I concluded that great teams, championship-caliber teams, are able to win despite the officiating.
So bad officiating no longer upsets me as much as it once did.
I still don't like it.
But I've learned to tolerate it. |
In the playoffs I believe this to be true. Champions have to overcome the poorly officiated games. Like it or not, it’s a part of the game. It’s why it’s pretty rare for a clear underdog to win a championship in recent history. |
So if 2 truly equal teams meet in the championships, you're ok with the refs determining the champion? Just because the losing team is not clearly more talented than the other team they couldn't beat the other team AND the refs? |
The refs don't determine the champion. There are going to be poor calls in every game. It's part of the game as the poster said. The calls are made by human beings, there will always be mistakes that are made.
The players need to play through it, and in spite of it, because you never know which way those poor calls will go. And over the course of a 7-game series, the better team will prevail either way. |
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LKA Star Player
Joined: 06 Oct 2018 Posts: 5181 Location: Sin City
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:08 am Post subject: |
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PauPau wrote: | James Harden's double step back was a thing of beauty! |
Dude gets away with everything |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:12 am Post subject: |
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LakersRGolden wrote: | Surfitall wrote: | JIFISH wrote: | It was during the playoffs of the Lakers first championship run with Phil, Kobe and Shaq that I concluded that great teams, championship-caliber teams, are able to win despite the officiating.
So bad officiating no longer upsets me as much as it once did.
I still don't like it.
But I've learned to tolerate it. |
In the playoffs I believe this to be true. Champions have to overcome the poorly officiated games. Like it or not, it’s a part of the game. It’s why it’s pretty rare for a clear underdog to win a championship in recent history. |
So if 2 truly equal teams meet in the championships, you're ok with the refs determining the champion? Just because the losing team is not clearly more talented than the other team they couldn't beat the other team AND the refs? |
The refs would not determine the champion, the players would. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:53 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | LakersRGolden wrote: | Surfitall wrote: | JIFISH wrote: | It was during the playoffs of the Lakers first championship run with Phil, Kobe and Shaq that I concluded that great teams, championship-caliber teams, are able to win despite the officiating.
So bad officiating no longer upsets me as much as it once did.
I still don't like it.
But I've learned to tolerate it. |
In the playoffs I believe this to be true. Champions have to overcome the poorly officiated games. Like it or not, it’s a part of the game. It’s why it’s pretty rare for a clear underdog to win a championship in recent history. |
So if 2 truly equal teams meet in the championships, you're ok with the refs determining the champion? Just because the losing team is not clearly more talented than the other team they couldn't beat the other team AND the refs? |
The refs would not determine the champion, the players would. |
Well I think the Mavs in 2006 may have something to say about that. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Annihilator wrote: | The Juggernaut wrote: | The NBA really needs to have more repercussions for poor officiating. Or at least more transparency for bad reffing. |
This is the main issue. On most plays in the NBA, a foul could be called; body contact is an unavoidable part of the game. Of course, if every single foul was called, the game would be unwatchable. So, the referees pick and choose which fouls to call. When referees get lazy and fall into a habit of calling fouls that favor certain players--when the exact same type of contact was not called a foul on another similar play--the game is no longer fair. Long-time watchers of the game consistently state that rookies don't get the calls that veterans and stars do. The bottom line is that the NBA needs to be more transparent--more like the NFL--in admitting when mistakes/inconsistencies are made by referees so that fans know that the league is trying to create a level playing field for all of its teams and players. |
I don't think it's that simple. I think most refs are honest and are trying to do the best job they can. I don't think they purposely try to reward stars. However, refs are human beings,and they are aware of who the stars are, and they are affected by their reputations and the quality of their play just as fans are.
And the NBA has become more transparency. They tweet about bad calls and put out lists of end of game calls. But no matter what the NBA does, fans will never be satisfied with the officiating,
First, many calls are subjective and fans are partisans, so fans will always think their teams/players were treated worse than the opponent. Second, because refs are not machines, and they are watching a fast game from bad angles, they will always make a lot of mistakes. There will be no satisfactory solution to this problem until technology advances to a state that a lot of calls can be done with human beings, and even then fans will be dissatified |
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Annihilator Star Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2001 Posts: 4035
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:00 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | LakersRGolden wrote: | Surfitall wrote: | JIFISH wrote: | It was during the playoffs of the Lakers first championship run with Phil, Kobe and Shaq that I concluded that great teams, championship-caliber teams, are able to win despite the officiating.
So bad officiating no longer upsets me as much as it once did.
I still don't like it.
But I've learned to tolerate it. |
In the playoffs I believe this to be true. Champions have to overcome the poorly officiated games. Like it or not, it’s a part of the game. It’s why it’s pretty rare for a clear underdog to win a championship in recent history. |
So if 2 truly equal teams meet in the championships, you're ok with the refs determining the champion? Just because the losing team is not clearly more talented than the other team they couldn't beat the other team AND the refs? |
The refs would not determine the champion, the players would. |
Come on. The "function" that determines who wins and loses games has in its domain the players (who score the baskets), the coaches (who develop the game plans), the fans (home teams have an advantage), the referees (who decide what they will and will not call), etc. The winner and loser of games are not solely determined by the players. If referees did not contribute to who won or lost then the NBA would pick random people off the street to do it. Most people believe that there are "better referees" and "worse referees." What does this mean? It means that referees can determine who wins and loses.
activeverb wrote: |
I don't think it's that simple. I think most refs are honest and are trying to do the best job they can. I don't think they purposely try to reward stars. However, refs are human beings,and they are aware of who the stars are, and they are affected by their reputations and the quality of their play just as fans are.
And the NBA has become more transparency. They tweet about bad calls and put out lists of end of game calls. But no matter what the NBA does, fans will never be satisfied with the officiating,
First, many calls are subjective and fans are partisans, so fans will always think their teams/players were treated worse than the opponent. Second, because refs are not machines, and they are watching a fast game from bad angles, they will always make a lot of mistakes. There will be no satisfactory solution to this problem until technology advances to a state that a lot of calls can be done with human beings, and even then fans will be dissatified |
Agreed. Fans are partisan. Referees are not perfect and make mistakes. Still, I think there is room for more transparency in how the NBA deals with referees who make bad calls in games. _________________ “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
--Anonymous |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Annihilator wrote: |
Agreed. Fans are partisan. Referees are not perfect and make mistakes. Still, I think there is room for more transparency in how the NBA deals with referees who make bad calls in games. |
I think the NBA can be more transparent about calls.
The NBA's interactions with referees is a different matter. The NBA can probably reveal disciplinary action against refs that break rules, but they probably can't reveal anything related to substandard performance of the refs.
The refs are represented by a union, and the NBA probably can't publically reveal performance reviews, anymore than a company could reveal your or my performance review. So I doubt we'll ever see, for example, stats on how many calls refs got right and wrong, even though the NBA has that data. |
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pokoy Moderator
Joined: 12 Apr 2001 Posts: 14545
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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So the refs admitted they blew the Harden non-call
Nothing on the Wall murder of Lonzo though? C'mon refs, need to discuss that one especially after calling the fans uneducated with the Harden elbow into Lonzo. |
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epak Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 Posts: 34147
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Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Drew @DrewAbsher
“The offensive player jumps using two feet at an angle of 87 degrees. The defensive player attempts a block but instead body checks him three rows back. This, by definition, is not a foul since the offensive player never yelled ‘AND 1’. This is the correct call” |
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