foul calls for harden vs. lbj
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:21 pm    Post subject:

LBJ gets a lot of calls.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:19 am    Post subject:

But, let's all be real, Harden is a p-ussy, he plays p-ussy ball, Kobe would have NEVER dreamed of playing like Harden. The rest of the players NEED to be sure that this p-ussy NEVER wins a ring. IF they do that, in the END, Harden will be remembered as the losing p-ussy that he is!! Screw Harden!

If Houston offered him to us in a trade, I would NOT want that trade. He is not much of a defensive player and his offense is bordering on disrespectful of a mans game. He is pretty much everything that I don't like about todays game, all wrapped up into one pansy arsed ball.

So, if you wanted to know what I really think, there you go.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:50 am    Post subject: Re: foul calls for harden vs. lbj

ringfinger wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
GTL wrote:
ringfinger, you're an intelligent fan, are you telling me that between 2005-2011, Kobe would get the same kind of calls that James Harden is getting today? Is the contact that Harden receives today, for the most part, as blatant as the contact Kobe received? I ask because Bryant got mugged on thousands of obvious calls that James Harden would get today with 25% of the contact he received back then, and he gets the whistle without hesitation.


What I am saying is that Harden INDUCES the calls by exaggerating contact.

There's no debate, at least from me, that if you had a neutral machine calling every contact of skin to the opposing player's skin, that Shaq, Kobe, and all other players would receive a SIGNIFICANT increase in foul calls. In some cases, we would probably see some players get even more free throws than James Harden.

What's also not in dispute is that Harden is the beneficiary of foul calls more than any other player.

The only thing that's in dispute is -- WHY?

Is it because it is by explicit direction from Adam Silver or another high ranking official within the NBA?


Harden gets foul calls because he is smart about drawing them. It's annoying to watch, but that's the reason, plain and simple.


I agree with you.


Here's the thing, though: this notion of Harden flopping and getting calls is out there in the universe. The league's executives are aware of it, the league's players are aware of it, and the league's officials are aware of it. So knowing that, WHY DOES HE CONTINUALLY GET THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? As I've said before, basically all NBA players complain after being whistled for fouls. But players that get called for fouls against Harden, they don't just complain...they are angry. Because they know they are being played. The referees see this, and yet Harden keeps getting the benefit of the doubt. You'd think that maybe it would go the other way after a while.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:00 am    Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
You can’t compare to Kobe era (even less to Jordan era) because of the rules changes. NBA loves that the scoring is up. Average fan or TV audience wants to see the 130-128 games.

The dunks and open threes. Not the hard defense and restriction of movement that was from another era. Even “hard fouls” have been legislated out of the game. NBA wants that unimpeded down the lane dunk to be a highlight reel. Not the meet the man at the rim and let physics take over type of foul that puts a player on the ground. Players have no fear in today’s game. As with the Ball on Harden breakaway “foul”. Ball had the audacity to stay close. NBA prefers giving the fans the big dunk and flex. Better for ratings.

As for James not getting calls (along with other Lakers) it is tough to not think it is selective at times. James used to get those touch fouls. Fo years it seemed that Kobe would get mugged on a nightly basis and other stars got calls. Apparently now James turn.

As a fan, I just want to see it called fairly on both ends. If a ref blows a whistle for undercutting Harden when he kicks out then blow the whistle on him when he closes and undercuts on a shooter too.


James hasn't been a high FTA player since 2010.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:23 am    Post subject:

Yellow wrote:
Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
You can’t compare to Kobe era (even less to Jordan era) because of the rules changes. NBA loves that the scoring is up. Average fan or TV audience wants to see the 130-128 games.

The dunks and open threes. Not the hard defense and restriction of movement that was from another era. Even “hard fouls” have been legislated out of the game. NBA wants that unimpeded down the lane dunk to be a highlight reel. Not the meet the man at the rim and let physics take over type of foul that puts a player on the ground. Players have no fear in today’s game. As with the Ball on Harden breakaway “foul”. Ball had the audacity to stay close. NBA prefers giving the fans the big dunk and flex. Better for ratings.

As for James not getting calls (along with other Lakers) it is tough to not think it is selective at times. James used to get those touch fouls. Fo years it seemed that Kobe would get mugged on a nightly basis and other stars got calls. Apparently now James turn.

As a fan, I just want to see it called fairly on both ends. If a ref blows a whistle for undercutting Harden when he kicks out then blow the whistle on him when he closes and undercuts on a shooter too.


James hasn't been a high FTA player since 2010.


How are you defining “high FTA player “?

True that he was typically top 3 in FTAs pre 2010, but since then he has dropped to consistently top 5-10 every year except one where he was only top a15 in FTAs

But point of the thread is inconsistency of calls in the NBA. Same foul is not called all the time with every player. It is especially frustrating with the type of calls that Harden has made a career. Seems like a “normal” rhythm of hi shot is to collapse whether he is touched or not.

As a player, you just want the calls to be similar on both ends. Even missed calls can be tolerated but consistent flops? Really?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: foul calls for harden vs. lbj

ChickenStu wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
GTL wrote:
ringfinger, you're an intelligent fan, are you telling me that between 2005-2011, Kobe would get the same kind of calls that James Harden is getting today? Is the contact that Harden receives today, for the most part, as blatant as the contact Kobe received? I ask because Bryant got mugged on thousands of obvious calls that James Harden would get today with 25% of the contact he received back then, and he gets the whistle without hesitation.


What I am saying is that Harden INDUCES the calls by exaggerating contact.

There's no debate, at least from me, that if you had a neutral machine calling every contact of skin to the opposing player's skin, that Shaq, Kobe, and all other players would receive a SIGNIFICANT increase in foul calls. In some cases, we would probably see some players get even more free throws than James Harden.

What's also not in dispute is that Harden is the beneficiary of foul calls more than any other player.

The only thing that's in dispute is -- WHY?

Is it because it is by explicit direction from Adam Silver or another high ranking official within the NBA?


Harden gets foul calls because he is smart about drawing them. It's annoying to watch, but that's the reason, plain and simple.


I agree with you.


Here's the thing, though: this notion of Harden flopping and getting calls is out there in the universe. The league's executives are aware of it, the league's players are aware of it, and the league's officials are aware of it. So knowing that, WHY DOES HE CONTINUALLY GET THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? As I've said before, basically all NBA players complain after being whistled for fouls. But players that get called for fouls against Harden, they don't just complain...they are angry. Because they know they are being played. The referees see this, and yet Harden keeps getting the benefit of the doubt. You'd think that maybe it would go the other way after a while.


Well, because the decisions aren't made after the fact. If the foul calls were made AFTER the game was completed, then I could see them dropping. But in a 0.5 second span, when you see two players in close proximity and you see a herky jerky type player snap their head back or fall over, you have to make a determination within 0.5 seconds or less on whether to blow that whistle.

It's not like James Harden just sits by his lonesome in the corner of the half court and gets whistles. He's getting the benefit of some pretty bang bang type plays and there is actually contact even on the controversial ones, there was contact.

I don't like that they are calling some of these, but I get why they get called.

If you're asking WHY this is happening, there are only two possible answers. Either Adam Silver or other high ranking NBA official loves James Harden, or, the way he plays is really hard for a human being to officiate in the time span they are given which is fractions of a single second.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: foul calls for harden vs. lbj

ringfinger wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
kobeandgary wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
GTL wrote:
ringfinger, you're an intelligent fan, are you telling me that between 2005-2011, Kobe would get the same kind of calls that James Harden is getting today? Is the contact that Harden receives today, for the most part, as blatant as the contact Kobe received? I ask because Bryant got mugged on thousands of obvious calls that James Harden would get today with 25% of the contact he received back then, and he gets the whistle without hesitation.


What I am saying is that Harden INDUCES the calls by exaggerating contact.

There's no debate, at least from me, that if you had a neutral machine calling every contact of skin to the opposing player's skin, that Shaq, Kobe, and all other players would receive a SIGNIFICANT increase in foul calls. In some cases, we would probably see some players get even more free throws than James Harden.

What's also not in dispute is that Harden is the beneficiary of foul calls more than any other player.

The only thing that's in dispute is -- WHY?

Is it because it is by explicit direction from Adam Silver or another high ranking official within the NBA?


Harden gets foul calls because he is smart about drawing them. It's annoying to watch, but that's the reason, plain and simple.


I agree with you.


Here's the thing, though: this notion of Harden flopping and getting calls is out there in the universe. The league's executives are aware of it, the league's players are aware of it, and the league's officials are aware of it. So knowing that, WHY DOES HE CONTINUALLY GET THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? As I've said before, basically all NBA players complain after being whistled for fouls. But players that get called for fouls against Harden, they don't just complain...they are angry. Because they know they are being played. The referees see this, and yet Harden keeps getting the benefit of the doubt. You'd think that maybe it would go the other way after a while.


Well, because the decisions aren't made after the fact. If the foul calls were made AFTER the game was completed, then I could see them dropping. But in a 0.5 second span, when you see two players in close proximity and you see a herky jerky type player snap their head back or fall over, you have to make a determination within 0.5 seconds or less on whether to blow that whistle.

It's not like James Harden just sits by his lonesome in the corner of the half court and gets whistles. He's getting the benefit of some pretty bang bang type plays and there is actually contact even on the controversial ones, there was contact.

I don't like that they are calling some of these, but I get why they get called.

If you're asking WHY this is happening, there are only two possible answers. Either Adam Silver or other high ranking NBA official loves James Harden, or, the way he plays is really hard for a human being to officiate in the time span they are given which is fractions of a single second.


The thing is, people defending Harden can't seem to help themselves. They all reach in knowing he's going to rip through, they all follow in hot pursuit over screens knowing he's going to stop and draw contact etc... It's mainly defenders making the same stupid mistakes over and over. Reminds me of the scene from "mom and dad save the world" where the soldiers keep picking up the light grenade and dying one by one.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:13 pm    Post subject:

Am I the only one who feels like some of the BS about the way the NBA calls (or doesn't call) fouls has to do with marketing?

When it comes to Lakers not getting calls, whether it's Kobe, Shaq back in the day or now sometimes Lebron, maybe it's because most of the rest of our nation hates the Lakers and L.A., and so the league and its refs are catering to those fans to maintain and heighten their interest in the league so that ratings and revenue will be high. Remember, these fans in small town Middle America are the "real Americans" who drive our economy.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:57 pm    Post subject:

In all of my years on here, I never thought I'd see arguments about LeBron NOT getting calls
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject:

Treble Clef wrote:
In all of my years on here, I never thought I'd see arguments about LeBron NOT getting calls


bout time to merge all the whiny stuff into one 'official'
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: foul calls for harden vs. lbj

GTL wrote:
Harden's fouls, for the most part, are not legitimate.


Harden's fouls, for the most part, are legitimate. I'd say it's a 70/30 split between the legit ones and the times he flails. Under these rules, most players today can't keep him in front of them, and most of the times when they call a foul on his step-back three the defender is making contact with him. As a primary option, these are his splits between shots at the rim and behind the arc:

2019 - 28% and 54%
2018 - 33% and 62%
2017 - 29% and 57%
2016 - 26% and 43%
2015 - 35% and 45%
2014 - 29% and 44%
2013 - 33% and 40%

There is nothing shocking about a guard taking 1/3 of his shots at the rim, in a system that spreads the court at that to give him more space, being fouled a lot. And if you don't close hard on that step-back then he's gonna drill it. In the regular season that is.

LeBron should get more FT's than him, but he suffers from the Shaq treatment.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:26 pm    Post subject:

GTL wrote:
rebirth wrote:
I brought this up on twitter yesterday. Would love to see the commisioner and head of officiating review tapes and explain to the Nba community why the same stuff results in a foul and FTS for harden and a no call for LBJ. For years there have been issues with the way NBA games are called. The way Harden is officiated is ruining the game. You all do realize Harden has attempted more free throws in his career than Fgs? I believe its about 200 more free throws than fgs. I do believe that is the first time in NBA history that has happened. In comparison when you look at Magic, kobe or Lbj the number is extemely lopsided in the othet direction as if should be


Saw that stat, and it's outrageous. Not seeing many fans (of all teams), pundits, players, and owners defending this crap on twitter or elsewhere.


Maybe because it's a bogus stat? Harden has attempted 11,011 FG's and 5,926 FT's in his career.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: foul calls for harden vs. lbj

ChickenStu wrote:
So knowing that, WHY DOES HE CONTINUALLY GET THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT?


Because most of the time he is actually getting fouled. He's great at getting to the rim (especially in this system) and scoring through contact (he's a thick guard). Those are the type of players that get fouled a lot.

NBA players and refs aren't complete idiots.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:44 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
GTL wrote:
rebirth wrote:
I brought this up on twitter yesterday. Would love to see the commisioner and head of officiating review tapes and explain to the Nba community why the same stuff results in a foul and FTS for harden and a no call for LBJ. For years there have been issues with the way NBA games are called. The way Harden is officiated is ruining the game. You all do realize Harden has attempted more free throws in his career than Fgs? I believe its about 200 more free throws than fgs. I do believe that is the first time in NBA history that has happened. In comparison when you look at Magic, kobe or Lbj the number is extemely lopsided in the othet direction as if should be


Saw that stat, and it's outrageous. Not seeing many fans (of all teams), pundits, players, and owners defending this crap on twitter or elsewhere.


Maybe because it's a bogus stat? Harden has attempted 11,011 FG's and 5,926 FT's in his career.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html


I assume the guy meant fg MADE and ft MADE, in any event.. we all know harden gets to the line a lot, but let’s not pretend LBJ doesn’t and hasn’t gotten a lot of calls over his career. We got beat in a December game without 2 of our better players in BI and Rondo. The best teams don’t need a ticky tack foul here and there against them to be the reason they lose. We can start by not going 1-2 from the stripe.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: foul calls for harden vs. lbj

kobeandgary wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
GTL wrote:
ringfinger, you're an intelligent fan, are you telling me that between 2005-2011, Kobe would get the same kind of calls that James Harden is getting today? Is the contact that Harden receives today, for the most part, as blatant as the contact Kobe received? I ask because Bryant got mugged on thousands of obvious calls that James Harden would get today with 25% of the contact he received back then, and he gets the whistle without hesitation.


What I am saying is that Harden INDUCES the calls by exaggerating contact.

There's no debate, at least from me, that if you had a neutral machine calling every contact of skin to the opposing player's skin, that Shaq, Kobe, and all other players would receive a SIGNIFICANT increase in foul calls. In some cases, we would probably see some players get even more free throws than James Harden.

What's also not in dispute is that Harden is the beneficiary of foul calls more than any other player.

The only thing that's in dispute is -- WHY?

Is it because it is by explicit direction from Adam Silver or another high ranking official within the NBA?


Harden gets foul calls because he is smart about drawing them. It's annoying to watch, but that's the reason, plain and simple.

Unfortunately that is the case.

Questions the NBA should answer:
- do we want players to go that route and try to draw as many fouls as possible
- do we want to disrupt the game flow often?
- what are foul calls for? protecting players from injury? give players a fair and level possibility to compete?
- do we want low scoring tough defensive games or games with lots of scoring and highlight dunks?
- ...

well actually, the NBA must love this game stoppage and advantage for the offensive side. The latter makes it way more entertaining for the (paying) fans, the first makes it more profitable since you can fit in more ads...

Since the NBA is not about sports but about business and entertainment - this will not change the way we want it
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject:

That is why Harden disappears in the playoffs... he doesn't get the Zebra love..


I hate that guy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject:

Fun Fact: MJ & Kobe, who were two of the greatest slashing guards in their primes, averaged 10 free throw attempts per game in a season 5 times (3 for Kobe, 2 for MJ) in a combined 35 seasons. Harden has already did it 5 times in 9 seasons & is on pace to do it this year making it 6!!!
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:41 pm    Post subject:

L.A.T.W wrote:
Fun Fact: MJ & Kobe, who were two of the greatest slashing guards in their primes, averaged 10 free throw attempts per game in a season 5 times (3 for Kobe, 2 for MJ) in a combined 35 seasons. Harden has already did it 5 times in 9 seasons & is on pace to do it this year making it 6!!!


All harden does is drive to the rim other than shoot 3s. Not surprising given his style of play.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:12 pm    Post subject:

L.A.T.W wrote:
Fun Fact: MJ & Kobe, who were two of the greatest slashing guards in their primes, averaged 10 free throw attempts per game in a season 5 times (3 for Kobe, 2 for MJ) in a combined 35 seasons. Harden has already did it 5 times in 9 seasons & is on pace to do it this year making it 6!!!

Also Harden had five seasons in a row where he averaged more made FTs than made FGs per game. MJ and Kobe never did that even once.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:21 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
L.A.T.W wrote:
Fun Fact: MJ & Kobe, who were two of the greatest slashing guards in their primes, averaged 10 free throw attempts per game in a season 5 times (3 for Kobe, 2 for MJ) in a combined 35 seasons. Harden has already did it 5 times in 9 seasons & is on pace to do it this year making it 6!!!

Also Harden had five seasons in a row where he averaged more made FTs than made FGs per game. MJ and Kobe never did that even once.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:32 am    Post subject:

L.A.T.W wrote:
slavavov wrote:
L.A.T.W wrote:
Fun Fact: MJ & Kobe, who were two of the greatest slashing guards in their primes, averaged 10 free throw attempts per game in a season 5 times (3 for Kobe, 2 for MJ) in a combined 35 seasons. Harden has already did it 5 times in 9 seasons & is on pace to do it this year making it 6!!!

Also Harden had five seasons in a row where he averaged more made FTs than made FGs per game. MJ and Kobe never did that even once.




Well I've seen Lebron get away with far worse, it is what it is.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: foul calls for harden vs. lbj

cathy78 wrote:
Unfortunately that is the case.

Questions the NBA should answer:
- do we want players to go that route and try to draw as many fouls as possible
- do we want to disrupt the game flow often?
- what are foul calls for? protecting players from injury? give players a fair and level possibility to compete?
- do we want low scoring tough defensive games or games with lots of scoring and highlight dunks?
- ...

well actually, the NBA must love this game stoppage and advantage for the offensive side. The latter makes it way more entertaining for the (paying) fans, the first makes it more profitable since you can fit in more ads...

Since the NBA is not about sports but about business and entertainment - this will not change the way we want it


Notwithstanding Harden, FTAs are down from historical levels. Even at a slower game pace, there were more FTAs per game ten years ago. Here are some numbers, to put this into perspective:

2019 23.2
2009 24.7
1999 25.8
1989 28.8
1979 28.3
1969 35.0
1959 36.3

Harden is an outlier. After the Donaghy debacle, the NBA transitioned to a mechanical, binary officiating system in which the officials are graded (CC, CNC, IC, INC) on every call in the game. Because all the officials are trained to call the game the same way, Harden has been able to figure out what will get him a foul call. It may not be esthetically pleasing, but it is still brilliant. And it drives opposing fans nuts, as evidenced by the fact that we have three different threads complaining about Harden.

The real question is why other players aren't doing the same thing. NBA players have no inhibitions about flopping to get an advantage. For the most part, Harden isn't even flopping in the literal sense. He just knows that if he takes a certain angle to the basket, and if the defender tries to impede him (which is what Ball did), that he will get the call every time.

If other players start copying Harden, then we will have a problem that the league will need to address. For whatever reason, it has not happened. As I said, FTAs are down from historical levels even as game pace has gone up.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject:

It’s not even just about Harden flopping. He swings his arms around when going in for layups hitting the defenders hands which I don’t think should be called.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:17 am    Post subject: Re: foul calls for harden vs. lbj

Staccatos wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
has anyone seen a video that compares what fouls are called or not?
particularly for harden and for lbj?
it would be most interesting if it is in the same game like on thursday.

nba refs came out to explain why something is a foul.
however, can they defend when one player gets all the ticky tacky fouls and the other gets hacked and nothing?


The difference is LBJ is unnaturally strong and fast so when he's fouled it doesn't look like much.

Harden sits his ass on the ground even if you don't touch him. Harden flails around and waits for the whistle.
Re-read what you just stated.

If LBJ is unnaturally strong as you put it. well its natural for him. but i get it. he's unusually strong. or abnormally strong in comparison to others in the nba. therefore when he gets hit it doesnt look like its harming his ability to score nearly as much as it does when others get hit. But did that do kobe any favors? NOPE.

but then you just said harden is flopping. well guess what, thats an unnatural movement as well. So you have two extreme ends of the spectrum. why are the refs gifting calls to one end and not giving calls at all to the other? if you do that the other guys will eventually all start flopping fishing for calls. which is a horrible product to watch if you ask me.
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487

PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject:

That footage of Harden on twitter taking 4355359 steps and the blatant foul calls given to him....yikes.

At what point is the NBA just shamed into doing the right thing?
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