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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:05 pm    Post subject: All NBA 1st team

Right now, does LeBron make the All NBA 1st team? Who would be on the team?

Right now, I'd say:

Kevin Durant
LeBron James
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Joel Embiid
Kawhi Leonard

Damian Lillard gets left off due to their record (13-10)
Kemba Walker gets left off due to their record (11-12)
Anthony Davis gets left off due to their record (12-13)
James Harden gets left off due to their record (11-12)
Steph Curry gets left off due to being hurt
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GOODRICH25
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject:

you need to have guards in there, no?
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
you need to have guards in there, no?


Could be. What's the rule nowadays?

Man, I think you're right. That gets real tricky then with Giannis, LeBron, Durant, and Kawhi.


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject:

4 forwards make the all NBA 1st and 2nd team. Due to team composition, I see Lebron over Durant in most scenarios. Kawhi and Greek Freak are the competition. AND Kawhi sits out alot.
The wild card is if A. Davis is listed as a forward or not.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject:

Since when did W-L record become a disqualifier for all-NBA selections? I mean, sure, playing on a good team helps. But you’re disqualifying players on teams with winning records.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Since when did W-L record become a disqualifier for all-NBA selections? I mean, sure, playing on a good team helps. But you’re disqualifying players on teams with winning records.


I could be wrong, but that's how I feel the voting comes down to. I think unless you have a statistically amazing year, I think your team needs to win at least 48 games to make the All NBA 1st team. That's just my feeling but I could be wrong. The only caveat would be center where some years, there's just not much to pick from.

And I wasn't disqualifying them. I was giving reasons why I think they'd be passed over for someone else. But of course, I didn't account for the team needing to have 2 guards, 2 forwards, and 1 center so I'd have to revise my list.


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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55
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:04 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Since when did W-L record become a disqualifier for all-NBA selections? I mean, sure, playing on a good team helps. But you’re disqualifying players on teams with winning records.


I could be wrong, but that's how I feel the voting comes down to. I think unless you have a statistically amazing year, I think your team needs to win at least 48 games to make the All NBA 1st team. That's just my feeling but I could be wrong.


Record is considered for MVP voting only, not for 1st team.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject:

LeBron is definitely on there.

Assuming Curry remains healthy he has to make it as well.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject:

55 wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Since when did W-L record become a disqualifier for all-NBA selections? I mean, sure, playing on a good team helps. But you’re disqualifying players on teams with winning records.


I could be wrong, but that's how I feel the voting comes down to. I think unless you have a statistically amazing year, I think your team needs to win at least 48 games to make the All NBA 1st team. That's just my feeling but I could be wrong.


Record is considered for MVP voting only, not for 1st team.


You sure about that? Go through the list of All NBA 1st teams and see how many players have made the team from sub 48 win teams?

Kobe made All NBA 3rd team only twice in his career. The first time was 1998-99. That was the first time he made the All NBA team. The 2nd time was 2004-05, the year after Shaq when we went 34-48.

Before that year, he was All NBA 1st team 3 straight years.
After that year, he was All NBA 1st team 8 straight years.


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Since when did W-L record become a disqualifier for all-NBA selections? I mean, sure, playing on a good team helps. But you’re disqualifying players on teams with winning records.


I could be wrong, but that's how I feel the voting comes down to. I think unless you have a statistically amazing year, I think your team needs to win at least 48 games to make the All NBA 1st team. That's just my feeling but I could be wrong. The only caveat would be center where some years, there's just not much to pick from.

And I wasn't disqualifying them. I was giving reasons why I think they'd be passed over for someone else. But of course, I didn't account for the team needing to have 2 guards, 2 forwards, and 1 center so I'd have to revise my list.


Okay, that’s reasonable. You mean that someone on an average team is disadvantaged. That’s usually true. If you have a monster season, and your team is mediocre, people are going to play the “empty stats” card.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject:

LeBron's working on a streak of 11 straight All NBA 1st teams
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
55 wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Since when did W-L record become a disqualifier for all-NBA selections? I mean, sure, playing on a good team helps. But you’re disqualifying players on teams with winning records.


I could be wrong, but that's how I feel the voting comes down to. I think unless you have a statistically amazing year, I think your team needs to win at least 48 games to make the All NBA 1st team. That's just my feeling but I could be wrong.


Record is considered for MVP voting only, not for 1st team.


You sure about that? Go through the list of All NBA 1st teams and see how many players have made the team from sub 48 win teams?

Kobe made All NBA 3rd team only twice in his career. The first time was 1998-99. That was the first time he made the All NBA team. The 2nd time was 2004-05, the year after Shaq when we went 34-48.

Before that year, he was All NBA 1st team 3 straight years.
After that year, he was All NBA 1st team 8 straight years.


I think it's a little different. A guy who makes the all-NBA first team, especially at the guard or forward position, is usually a perennial MVP short lister, and that type of guy can usually bring any team to 48 or more wins.

In the center position, which is the one place that the 1st teamer may not be a perennial MVP short lister, you see guys from teams that didn't win as much.

Team record might be a factor in the voting, but nothing like it is for MVP.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: All NBA 1st team

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Right now, does LeBron make the All NBA 1st team? Who would be on the team?

Right now, I'd say:

Kevin Durant
LeBron James
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Joel Embiid
Kawhi Leonard

Damian Lillard gets left off due to their record (13-10)
Kemba Walker gets left off due to their record (11-12)
Anthony Davis gets left off due to their record (12-13)
James Harden gets left off due to their record (11-12)
Steph Curry gets left off due to being hurt


If you had to vote today, it would probably be Embiid, Lebron, Giannis, Curry and Lillard. Of course, that could change a dozen times before they actually have to decide.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
55 wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Since when did W-L record become a disqualifier for all-NBA selections? I mean, sure, playing on a good team helps. But you’re disqualifying players on teams with winning records.


I could be wrong, but that's how I feel the voting comes down to. I think unless you have a statistically amazing year, I think your team needs to win at least 48 games to make the All NBA 1st team. That's just my feeling but I could be wrong.


Record is considered for MVP voting only, not for 1st team.


You sure about that? Go through the list of All NBA 1st teams and see how many players have made the team from sub 48 win teams?

Kobe made All NBA 3rd team only twice in his career. The first time was 1998-99. That was the first time he made the All NBA team. The 2nd time was 2004-05, the year after Shaq when we went 34-48.

Before that year, he was All NBA 1st team 3 straight years.
After that year, he was All NBA 1st team 8 straight years.


I think it's a little different. A guy who makes the all-NBA first team, especially at the guard or forward position, is usually a perennial MVP short lister, and that type of guy can usually bring any team to 48 or more wins.

In the center position, which is the one place that the 1st teamer may not be a perennial MVP short lister, you see guys from teams that didn't win as much.

Team record might be a factor in the voting, but nothing like it is for MVP.


Yeah, not sure how we got to comparing MVP and All NBA 1st team.

History seems to dictate that record is a factor, which is why I factored in the record. What's the actual debate?

James Harden has made All NBA 1st team 4 out of the last 5 years. The year he didn't make it, 2015-16, he didn't even make any All NBA teams. Let's look at Houston's records during the last 5 years:

2013-14 - (54-28) - All NBA 1st team
2014-15 - (56-26) - All NBA 1st team

2015-16 - (41-41) - No All NBA team

2016-17 - (55-27) - All NBA 1st team
2017-18 - (65-17) - All NBA 1st team

And then you look at Kobe where he was All NBA 1st team for 11 out of 12 years, and the one year that he didn't make it, they put him on the 3rd team. The team record that year was 34-48. That's alot of evidence that record matters alot in All NBA voting.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject:

Those are certainly two interesting examples. They're also fairly extreme examples. In one case Houston went from a very good team to collapsing and then returning to being a very good team. In the other case the Lakers were a really really bad team.

I haven't really looked at all NBA voting patterns in a systematic way so I don't personally have any nuanced opinion on how team record might affect voting patterns. It's certainly would be something to look at more closely.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
I haven't really looked at all NBA voting patterns in a systematic way so I don't personally have any nuanced opinion on how team record might affect voting patterns. It's certainly would be something to look at more closely.


Why would you say this then offer this opinion "Team record might be a factor in the voting, but nothing like it is for MVP."

It's like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing without actually looking at anything closely.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I haven't really looked at all NBA voting patterns in a systematic way so I don't personally have any nuanced opinion on how team record might affect voting patterns. It's certainly would be something to look at more closely.


Why would you say this then offer this opinion "Team record might be a factor in the voting, but nothing like it is for MVP."

It's like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing without actually looking at anything closely.


I have looked at mvp voting pretty closely so I know the correlation between votes and team record in a fairly nuanced way. With all NBA voting, I've looked at it in a cursory way and I sense there is a connection, and it doesnt seem as strong as the mvp connection since guys from average teams do make all NBA teams. But I dont have as strong a sense of the correlation between records and votes to understand it in a nuanced wsy
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:11 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
And then you look at Kobe where he was All NBA 1st team for 11 out of 12 years, and the one year that he didn't make it, they put him on the 3rd team. The team record that year was 34-48. That's alot of evidence that record matters alot in All NBA voting.


There was a lot more going on that year, so Kobe isn't a very good example. As I said before, though, I buy your premise that someone who plays on a mediocre team will be disadvantaged.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:36 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
And then you look at Kobe where he was All NBA 1st team for 11 out of 12 years, and the one year that he didn't make it, they put him on the 3rd team. The team record that year was 34-48. That's alot of evidence that record matters alot in All NBA voting.


There was a lot more going on that year, so Kobe isn't a very good example. As I said before, though, I buy your premise that someone who plays on a mediocre team will be disadvantaged.


Not sure what else was going on that you're referring to, but if you've made the All NBA 1st team 11/12 years, pretty much, you're a lock for All NBA 1st team.

If they hadn't traded Shaq, and the Lakers win over 50 games that year, Kobe is 1st team All NBA.

Or, if Lamar Odom and Caron Butler play out of their minds, and Kobe puts up the exact same stats but the Lakers go 48-34 instead of 34-48, Kobe makes All NBA 1st team that year.


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:45 pm    Post subject:

LBJ 4 MVP ....
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
you need to have guards in there, no?


Could be. What's the rule nowadays?

Man, I think you're right. That gets real tricky then with Giannis, LeBron, Durant, and Kawhi.

there is no rule. positions dont mean anything in basketball, never has. not like other sports. no rule, nothing.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:09 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
There was a lot more going on that year, so Kobe isn't a very good example. As I said before, though, I buy your premise that someone who plays on a mediocre team will be disadvantaged.


Not sure what else was going on that you're referring to


Either you are too young to remember or you have successfully blocked that year out of your memory. I envy you either way.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
there is no rule. positions dont mean anything in basketball, never has. not like other sports. no rule, nothing.


Well . . . there may not be a rule, per se, but the ballots may compel the result anyway (in other words, two spots on the ballot for guards). You will note that there are always two guards in the all-NBA first team.

http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/ufuKo
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
There was a lot more going on that year, so Kobe isn't a very good example. As I said before, though, I buy your premise that someone who plays on a mediocre team will be disadvantaged.


Not sure what else was going on that you're referring to


Either you are too young to remember or you have successfully blocked that year out of your memory. I envy you either way.


Guess you wanted to end the discussion in a condescending manner. Cool. Thanks for the discussion up to now Aeneas Hunter.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
There was a lot more going on that year, so Kobe isn't a very good example. As I said before, though, I buy your premise that someone who plays on a mediocre team will be disadvantaged.


Not sure what else was going on that you're referring to


Either you are too young to remember or you have successfully blocked that year out of your memory. I envy you either way.


if you’re referring to the colorado case, he made the 1st team that season.
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