American missionary tries to convert indigenous island people; receives the Magellan treatment
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
If you're trying to draw a comparison between that island and the US, you're so far off that it's actually disturbing.


Almost as disturbing as aikido's bizarre analogy to modern American's living in the Florida Keys.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:14 am    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
If you're trying to draw a comparison between that island and the US, you're so far off that it's actually disturbing.


I'm not trying to do that. You're calling it arrogance because he's American, obviously.

You said that everyone knows to stay off the island and that he is arrogant because he went there anyway.

By that definition, ANYONE who does something they know they should NOT do and just does it anyway, is arrogant, right?

Let's use a different example. If an American knows the speed limit is 65, and drives 100 MPH, is that arrogance?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
If you're trying to draw a comparison between that island and the US, you're so far off that it's actually disturbing.


I'm not trying to do that. You're calling it arrogance because he's American, obviously.

You said that everyone knows to stay off the island and that he is arrogant because he went there anyway.

By that definition, ANYONE who does something they know they should NOT do and just does it anyway, is arrogant, right?

Let's use a different example. If an American knows the speed limit is 65, and drives 100 MPH, is that arrogance?


Your examples are only getting more and more insane.

I couldn't care less if he was American, Chinese, Saudi or any other nationality. Any missionary that purposely went to that island deserved exactly what they got.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject:

@ ringfinger Why are you saying he wouldn't be called a missionary by the media if he weren't American? Especially since he's been called a missionary, trespasser, intruder. I wonder what he's being called in China?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject:

Guy holds a bible and says its God calling him to convert the natives.....yet somebody is offended that he is called a missionary....
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:07 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
I'm not trying to do that. You're calling it arrogance because he's American, obviously.


Your attaching this to being American is off base, as I read it.

Quote:
You said that everyone knows to stay off the island and that he is arrogant because he went there anyway.

By that definition, ANYONE who does something they know they should NOT do and just does it anyway, is arrogant, right?


Of course not. Arrogance comes from WHY you're doing it. When you presume that you know what's better for someone than they do, and your judgement trumps their judgement about their own needs as well as their autonomy, that's arrogance.

That said, it's always contextual. It's not arrogant when a parent takes their kid to the doctor against his will, because the parent is already in the role of judging what's best for their kid, and the kid doesn't have the same kind of autonomy. But in the case of a missionary proselytizing to people who want to be left alone, it's EXACTLY what we're talking about.

Quote:
Let's use a different example. If an American knows the speed limit is 65, and drives 100 MPH, is that arrogance?


I'd say that falls more under selfishness than arrogance, personally.

Sorry you're giving so many analogies that are actually disanalogous. We can go over the concept further, if you'd like.

(That wasn't arrogant either -- that was snarky.)
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I'm not trying to do that. You're calling it arrogance because he's American, obviously.


Your attaching this to being American is off base, as I read it.

Quote:
You said that everyone knows to stay off the island and that he is arrogant because he went there anyway.

By that definition, ANYONE who does something they know they should NOT do and just does it anyway, is arrogant, right?


Of course not. Arrogance comes from WHY you're doing it. When you presume that you know what's better for someone than they do, and your judgement trumps their judgement about their own needs as well as their autonomy, that's arrogance.

That said, it's always contextual. It's not arrogant when a parent takes their kid to the doctor against his will, because the parent is already in the role of judging what's best for their kid, and the kid doesn't have the same kind of autonomy. But in the case of a missionary proselytizing to people who want to be left alone, it's EXACTLY what we're talking about.

Quote:
Let's use a different example. If an American knows the speed limit is 65, and drives 100 MPH, is that arrogance?


I'd say that falls more under selfishness than arrogance, personally.

Sorry you're giving so many analogies that are actually disanalogous. We can go over the concept further, if you'd like.

(That wasn't arrogant either -- that was snarky.)
your analogy is key. the parent to the child. someone who actually knows vs someone who may THINK they know. thats the difference. if you have someone who believes they know something that the other person does not know. then they may feel the need to give that information to said person that did not have it.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Hector the Pup wrote:
If you're trying to draw a comparison between that island and the US, you're so far off that it's actually disturbing.


I'm not trying to do that. You're calling it arrogance because he's American, obviously.

You said that everyone knows to stay off the island and that he is arrogant because he went there anyway.

By that definition, ANYONE who does something they know they should NOT do and just does it anyway, is arrogant, right?

Let's use a different example. If an American knows the speed limit is 65, and drives 100 MPH, is that arrogance?


Your examples are only getting more and more insane.

I couldn't care less if he was American, Chinese, Saudi or any other nationality. Any missionary that purposely went to that island deserved exactly what they got.


Sorry, I just don't agree with that.

Why do they deserve what they got?

Because they knew they weren't supposed to go there?

Or because they were trying to convert the people?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
@ ringfinger Why are you saying he wouldn't be called a missionary by the media if he weren't American? Especially since he's been called a missionary, trespasser, intruder. I wonder what he's being called in China?


What I'm trying to get at -- is why are some people trying to castigate this guy? Saying things like that he should be called a trespasser and that he deserved what he got?

Don't agree at all with what this guy did. So we're all in alignment there. I just don't understand the need to say he deserved what he got or to label him a trespasser. What is driving the castigation in this particular case?

There are a countless number of people that do things they know they shouldn't do, understand what the consequences might be and they do them anyway. Do they ALL deserve what they get? I think we'd all agree that the answer is no, right?

So what is it exactly, that makes this particular situation, one in which it is justified to say he deserved what he got?

Is it because he tried to convert people to his belief system?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:24 pm    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
When you presume that you know what's better for someone than they do, and your judgement trumps their judgement about their own needs as well as their autonomy, that's arrogance.


Well, you just described pretty much everyone on the internet there.

Look, all I'm trying to get at is -- why do people say he deserved what he got? Like WHY say that? What's the purpose there and why the anger towards him?

Is it because he did something where he knew there could be consequences and did it anyway?

Or did he deserve it because he was a religious man and tried to convert people to his religion?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
@ ringfinger Why are you saying he wouldn't be called a missionary by the media if he weren't American? Especially since he's been called a missionary, trespasser, intruder. I wonder what he's being called in China?


What I'm trying to get at -- is why are some people trying to castigate this guy? Saying things like that he should be called a trespasser and that he deserved what he got?

Don't agree at all with what this guy did. So we're all in alignment there. I just don't understand the need to say he deserved what he got or to label him a trespasser. What is driving the castigation in this particular case?

There are a countless number of people that do things they know they shouldn't do, understand what the consequences might be and they do them anyway. Do they ALL deserve what they get? I think we'd all agree that the answer is no, right?

So what is it exactly, that makes this particular situation, one in which it is justified to say he deserved what he got?

Is it because he tried to convert people to his belief system?

The term "deserve" is subjective. I don't think those using it are using to have a vicious or cruel meaning. He was punished because he intruded on a people who wanted to left alone. The punishment was harsh. If he had been accepted by the Sentinelese he would have gotten what he deserved. Would that have been ok by you? He was killed by them, he got what he deserved. It's a two sided coin.

This island is very remote. LINK His need to spread the word caused his demise. He's not the first missionary killed by those they were trying to convert.

But that doesn't address my question. Why are you saying he wouldn't be called a missionary by the media if he weren't American? To me that's saying the media is biased. They would demean any who aren't American.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:


Look, all I'm trying to get at is -- why do people say he deserved what he got?


That's been answered and explained several times by multiple posters.

Not sure what you think you are attempting to accomplish with your obvious obtuseness.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
I wouldn't agree that a person deserves their fate because they took a stupid life risking stunt. It all depends on the motivation for taking on that stunt. The motivation matters.

Two different people can put their hands or bodies to a flame and depending on their motivation for doing so, the outcome could either be tragic, heroic, or, as DMR says, warranted.


Well, in life, all you can ask for is to be in control of your own fate.

For instance, if the speed limit is 65mph and you continually speed at 100mph everyday, then you're going to get a speeding ticket. It's inevitable. And you control that. And when you do get a ticket, it seems "deserved." If you never get a ticket, then you're very lucky. But you control your own fate in regards to whether you get a speeding ticket or not. And that's very fair.

In this instance, this missionary controlled his own fate on whether he lived or died. Visiting this island put his life in great danger. His aim was not just to visit the island but also make contact with the indigenous people. His chances of surviving was probably slim and none. He predetermined his own fate. Death was inevitable. I don't know how else to see it. He really did deserve his fate.

I don't think he deserved to die because visiting the island was wrong and illegal. I think he deserved his fate because he put his life in great danger and death was inevitable.

It is akin to someone trying to climb Mount Everest without a jacket. They're going to die.

Or someone going to Thailand to have unprotected sex with a bunch of prostitutes. You're going to get HIV. That seems inevitable. That's your fate should you choose to do that.

And if you don't feel that he deserved his fate, then think of it like this, what happens if there's another missionary who tries this same stunt and then gets killed as well. And then there's another missionary after that that tries to land on the island and gets killed. How many missionaries must die before you agree that the next missionary that tries this stunt deserves his fate of death. At some point, a missionary will deserve his fate. Is it after the 100th missionary dies? 1,000th? 1 millionth?


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:17 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

Quote:
he deserved his fate


In a nutshell. Fate is a softer term for death.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:

Quote:
he deserved his fate


In a nutshell. Fate is a softer term for death.


No, fate is whatever happens. There's only 2 outcomes - either you live or you die.

Let's say his chances of living were 5% and his chances of dying was 95%. Whatever happens, he deserved it. If he lived, he was lucky. If he died, it was expected.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject:

I'm thinkin that by the way this guy prepped his family that he had a bit of a death wish too.

Suicide by protected tribe has got to be a new one.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject:

Since we are beating up tiny semantics, why do you think it is that god didn’t protect him?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Since we are beating up tiny semantics, why do you think it is that god didn’t protect him?


God was too busy making sure his favorite sports team won.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:46 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Since we are beating up tiny semantics, why do you think it is that god didn’t protect him?


God was too busy making sure his favorite sports team won.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:09 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
When you presume that you know what's better for someone than they do, and your judgement trumps their judgement about their own needs as well as their autonomy, that's arrogance.


Well, you just described pretty much everyone on the internet there.

Look, all I'm trying to get at is -- why do people say he deserved what he got? Like WHY say that? What's the purpose there and why the anger towards him?

Is it because he did something where he knew there could be consequences and did it anyway?

Or did he deserve it because he was a religious man and tried to convert people to his religion?

He believed that his right to spread his beliefs was greater than the worth of his life and all of their lives. Only someone who believes the same would not see the arrogance of his actions. And really, 'arrogance' is not strong enough. It is a misguided faith based attempted genocide, the horror of which is only slightly mitigated by his ignorance.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:13 pm    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Since we are beating up tiny semantics, why do you think it is that god didn’t protect him?


God was too busy making sure his favorite sports team won.




In all fairness to God, have you seen Sam’s mom?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:39 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Since we are beating up tiny semantics, why do you think it is that god didn’t protect him?



Like I said. I guess some valleys of shadow of death are off limits. The rod and staff just can't stop arrows and spears in those.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:03 am    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Since we are beating up tiny semantics, why do you think it is that god didn’t protect him?



Like I said. I guess some valleys of shadow of death are off limits. The rod and staff just can't stop arrows and spears in those.


So this is the rock god created that he can’t lift?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:52 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Since we are beating up tiny semantics, why do you think it is that god didn’t protect him?

Public Service Announcement: The next missionary to test their worthiness might want to schedule their arrival on April 18th, 2019, just in case.
(I will wait while everyone googles)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:14 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
When you presume that you know what's better for someone than they do, and your judgement trumps their judgement about their own needs as well as their autonomy, that's arrogance.


Well, you just described pretty much everyone on the internet there.

Look, all I'm trying to get at is -- why do people say he deserved what he got? Like WHY say that? What's the purpose there and why the anger towards him?

Is it because he did something where he knew there could be consequences and did it anyway?

Or did he deserve it because he was a religious man and tried to convert people to his religion?


Yup, we all deserve our fate that we have total control over.

If I’m going to go mess with a cobra and I get bit and die, I deserve that fate.

If I don’t study for a test and go take it, I’m probably going to fail that test.

There are fates that we control and we accept the consequences. That’s just life.
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