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Omar Little
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 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | You're saying being of religious belief is arrogant. |
No. Religious belief is not arrogance, and that is not what was said. The arrogance comes when one assumes that their personal beliefs need to be imposed on others, as this missionary did. |
From my perspective, there's nothing that separates religious belief from any other when it comes to being or not being arrogant (and the belief that a deity will keep you from harm while doing something stupid would qualify as arrogant). It's actually arrogant to assume a separate exemption for beliefs that have to do with the supernatural.
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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I think Chau thought he would be protected by his lord.
| Quote: | | "God sheltered me and camouflaged me against the coast guard and the navy," John Allen Chau wrote before he was killed last week on North Sentinel Island. |
| Quote: | | "I DON’T WANT TO DIE," wrote Chau, who appeared to want to bring Christianity to the islanders. "Would it be wiser to leave and let someone else to continue. No I don’t think so." |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | I don't think Chau truly fathomed the danger he self imposed. |
Well, you're wrong. He bribed people to take him to a place he knew he was forbidden to go and why it was forbidden. He knew of the risks he was taking because he wrote about them. He detailed his first contact with the islanders and being shot with an arrow that was blocked by his bible. Despite being attacked during his first contact, he decided to return and try again.
To say he didn't understand the dangers in actions is absolutely incorrect. |
Didn't say he didn't understand the dangers. I said I didn't think he fathomed the dangers, didn't properly measure the dangers. There a difference.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | Jodeke, Me and u have a difference in seeing the arrogance of believing in a religion trumps everything else |
OK. I'm saying it trumps for the person who believes.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | You're saying being of religious belief is arrogant. |
No. Religious belief is not arrogance, and that is not what was said. The arrogance comes when one assumes that their personal beliefs need to be imposed on others, as this missionary did. |
Agree.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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32
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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What a crazy story.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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A large portion of Christians (Catholic and Protestant) believe those who have no opportunity to hear the gospel aren't automatically damned to hell.
Of course it is every Christian's duty to live Christ-like and spread the Word of God. But no where in the Bible does it imply you should endanger the lives of natives by bringing diseases to them.
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governator
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Jodeke, Me and u have a difference in seeing the arrogance of believing in a religion trumps everything else |
OK. I'm saying it trumps for the person who believes. |
You believe religious belief trumps facts/evidence, I believe the complete opposite. The problem arises when the religious person imposes his/her religious belief to others despite contradicting from facts |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="governator"] | jodeke wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Jodeke, Me and u have a difference in seeing the arrogance of believing in a religion trumps everything else |
OK. I'm saying it trumps for the person who believes. |
| Quote: | | You believe religious belief trumps facts/evidence, |
No. I'm saying it trumps for those who believe.
| Quote: | | I believe the complete opposite. The problem arises when the religious person imposes his/her religious belief to others despite contradicting from facts |
IMO the imposition is wrong. When dealing with religion fact is not in the equation. Religion is not based on fact, it's based on belief. Belief trumps all for those who believe.
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America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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governator
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="jodeke"][quote="governator"] | jodeke wrote: | | governator wrote: | | Quote: | | Jodeke, Me and u have a difference in seeing the arrogance of believing in a religion trumps everything else |
OK. I'm saying it trumps for the person who believes. |
| Quote: | | You believe religious belief trumps facts/evidence, |
No. I'm saying it trumps for those who believe.
| Quote: | | I believe the complete opposite. The problem arises when the religious person imposes his/her religious belief to others despite contradicting from facts |
IMO the imposition is wrong. When dealing with religion fact is not in the equation. Religion is not based on fact, it's based on belief. Belief trumps all for those who believe. |
If you keep it to yourself, belief trumps all for those who believe doesn’t harm anybody else. But that’s not what happened in this case. Here, the religious belief is forced unto others who don’t share the same religious belief, do you think it still trumps everything else, including the rights of the other/tribe? |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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governator wrote: | Quote: | | Jodeke, Me and u have a difference in seeing the arrogance of believing in a religion trumps everything else |
OK. I'm saying it trumps for the person who believes.
| Quote: | | You believe religious belief trumps facts/evidence, |
No. I'm saying it trumps for those who believe.
| Quote: | | I believe the complete opposite. The problem arises when the religious person imposes his/her religious belief to others despite contradicting from facts |
IMO the imposition is wrong. When dealing with religion fact is not in the equation. Religion is not based on fact, it's based on belief. Belief trumps all for those who believe.
| Quote: | | If you keep it to yourself, belief trumps all for those who believe doesn’t harm anybody else. |
That's what I'm saying.
| Quote: | | But that’s not what happened in this case. Here, the religious belief is forced unto others who don’t share the same religious belief, do you think it still trumps everything else, including the rights of the other/tribe? |
I agree forcing a belief is wrong. Chau was wrong but I opinion he thought he was right, he was a believer.
My position is, faith is based on belief and those who believe hold that faith as truth without empirical evidence. Therefore the term "trumps."
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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And therein lies the difficult issue with faith, because it is nearly impossible to keep it solely in one's own personal space entirely.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | My position is, faith is based on belief and those who believe hold that faith as truth without empirical evidence. Therefore the term "trumps." |
Intentional or unintentional wit? |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | My position is, faith is based on belief and those who believe hold that faith as truth without empirical evidence. Therefore the term "trumps." |
Intentional or unintentional wit? |
Intentional. Not tied to idiot in office.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Faith is kind of like freedom, where one person's ends where the other's begins. When people make faith based actions that impact others, they then lose the right to simply be left alone and unchallenged.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Gatekeeper
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Faith is kind of like freedom, where one person's ends where the other's begins. When people make faith based actions that impact others, they then lose the right to simply be left alone and unchallenged. |
Which contributed to the fate of Chau.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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JerryMagicKobe
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | And therein lies the difficult issue with faith, because it is nearly impossible to keep it solely in one's own personal space entirely. |
And outreach is integral to many religions. |
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non-player zealot
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: |
The difference between Capital Punishment and this instance is that the missionary's death is a direct result of his actions, like someone jumping into the tiger enclosure at the zoo. You know there is a probability that you will get attacked and if so, death is the likely outcome. That is a function of circumstance tied directly to the act itself as opposed to a punitive action that is taken by a later that is not directly tied to the act. |
Or the bear dude who whispered to bears, encroached upon bears, placed himself among bears, and was killed and eaten by bears.
I'll bet anything Chau saw the 1986 movie "The Mission" with DeNiro, Liam Neeson, and Jeremy Irons and thought he was going to be a real life version of the Irons character. Some religious council on movies has praised that movie as the most positive depiction of Christianity in film. Ultimately, the subject was about Jesuit missionaries who converted the Guarani people in South America during the same timeframe said people were being captured by slave traders (played by DeNiro).
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | How exactly was he supposed to communicate with these people? The moment they saw him they must have immediately felt threatened. I would expect to get attacked immediately. And it’s not like they could understand a single word he might say. |
well non of what you're saying means much since natives of many countries/continents have been converted to various religions and belief systems over time. What he was doing is something that has been done since the beginning of belief systems. people travel to other lands and talk to other people with a completely different language and find some way to communicate. remember you are human, you do have some human gestures that are universal.
They just were not having it. end of story. he should've never tried to go over there like that. if for nothing else, like others have stated, he could be trying to do something he thought was best for them but he would/could literally kill the entire tribe just by being there and introducing outsider diseases to them. If you want to get religion over to a place like this knowing what can happen if both of you come in contact with one another. you air drop some bibles already translated in their language. or some way of them listening to audio tracks in their language. or using pictures. but even that, you have to make darn sure the items are sterilized.
He probably grew up watching those cable shows showing white guys leaving with the natives for a month or so and he thought he could do the same. not understanding every tribe is different. some tribes are full of very passive people by nature. some tribes are full of warriors that aint having it...by nature. some fall in between these two types. |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | You're saying being of religious belief is arrogant. |
No. Religious belief is not arrogance, and that is not what was said. The arrogance comes when one assumes that their personal beliefs need to be imposed on others, as this missionary did. |
Agree. |
Thats actually not true either. it's not his arrogance. thats what some religions call for. if not all of them. not sure. Christianity calls for one to give the "good news" to everyone. Not by force, but to attempt to speak with others about the beliefs, God, Christ, etc. But there are many ways to communicate with people outside of going to a remote island and possibly killing these people by your mere presence.
Knowledge of anything has to be passed on in order for it to grow. You can't just have the knowledge and keep it to yourself because it's not something they asked for before hand. perhaps some people dont even know this knowledge exists. It's not possible to not want to hear about something you dont even know exists. Which is why someone has to present things to you that you know nothing about in order for you to make a decision if you want to hear more or you're done with it. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | You're saying being of religious belief is arrogant. |
No. Religious belief is not arrogance, and that is not what was said. The arrogance comes when one assumes that their personal beliefs need to be imposed on others, as this missionary did. |
Agree. |
Thats actually not true either. it's not his arrogance. thats what some religions call for. |
Still arrogance.
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| non-player zealot wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: |
The difference between Capital Punishment and this instance is that the missionary's death is a direct result of his actions, like someone jumping into the tiger enclosure at the zoo. You know there is a probability that you will get attacked and if so, death is the likely outcome. That is a function of circumstance tied directly to the act itself as opposed to a punitive action that is taken by a later that is not directly tied to the act. |
Or the bear dude who whispered to bears, encroached upon bears, placed himself among bears, and was killed and eaten by bears.
I'll bet anything Chau saw the 1986 movie "The Mission" with DeNiro, Liam Neeson, and Jeremy Irons and thought he was going to be a real life version of the Irons character. Some religious council on movies has praised that movie as the most positive depiction of Christianity in film. Ultimately, the subject was about Jesuit missionaries who converted the Guarani people in South America during the same timeframe said people were being captured by slave traders (played by DeNiro). |
excellent points. which is why i said this guy grew up watching those cable shows showing white guys living among the tribe and thought he could do it too. not realizing all tribes are not alike. some dont play that. lol. some do.
The truth is. the best way to get in there or to get your message in there because you need to stay away physically for their safety. is to give them something of use. something they could really use that will enhance their lives. That could be a certain type of food supply where they can grow it themselves if possible in that climate, or some type of instructions on how to do something with the land they are currently on to make it even more hospitable for their tribe. you do this enough times and they will open up a bit. now you still have to deal with the demeanor of said tribe. all tribes are not warm and fuzzy. some are, and some arent. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | You're saying being of religious belief is arrogant. |
No. Religious belief is not arrogance, and that is not what was said. The arrogance comes when one assumes that their personal beliefs need to be imposed on others, as this missionary did. |
Agree. |
Thats actually not true either. it's not his arrogance. thats what some religions call for. if not all of them. not sure. Christianity calls for one to give the "good news" to everyone. Not by force, but to attempt to speak with others about the beliefs, God, Christ, etc. But there are many ways to communicate with people outside of going to a remote island and possibly killing these people by your mere presence.
Knowledge of anything has to be passed on in order for it to grow. You can't just have the knowledge and keep it to yourself because it's not something they asked for before hand. perhaps some people dont even know this knowledge exists. It's not possible to not want to hear about something you dont even know exists. Which is why someone has to present things to you that you know nothing about in order for you to make a decision if you want to hear more or you're done with it. |
Chau was arrogant in his belief. A arrogance that caused his demise.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | You're saying being of religious belief is arrogant. |
No. Religious belief is not arrogance, and that is not what was said. The arrogance comes when one assumes that their personal beliefs need to be imposed on others, as this missionary did. |
Agree. |
Thats actually not true either. it's not his arrogance. thats what some religions call for. |
Still arrogance. |
from a personal perspective perhaps it was. perhaps he thought more of himself then he should have in that situation.
But the mere idea of giving someone the ability to have their soul saved is not a selfish or arrogant idea at all. you may not agree with that belief system at all. But the idea behind trying to give everyone a map to which to save their souls is not arrogant. What can become arrogance and we see this all the time in religion. is when you have people thinking "I CAN SAVE THESE PEOPLE" no where in the bible i have read talks about regular people saving other regular people. you are there to give info and there to be a physical example for people to see a visual version of what you speak about. Thats it. But you are correct a lot of people get caught up in smelling themselves where they believe THEY can save people and they force themselves into situations that they should not have.But I dont know if thats what happened with this guy. Probably is. but maybe, just maybe he was really believing he was helping these people and just wasnt smart enough about these people or tribes in general to understand his mere presence could be a death sentence for them. as basic as you and I may think that is. it aint basic for everyone. now you may say thats reason #1000 why he shouldnt have gone because of his ignorance. I agree. and then there's the other possibility. maybe this tribe has already seen/heard Christianity centuries ago. |
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