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DaMuleRules
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 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | If a people want to be alone why not allow it? These people are happy with there existence. Why intrude? |
Not sure anyone is suggesting someone should....but claiming a a human "deserves" death based on the guys actions is repulsive in my opinion. |
He knowingly put this entire population at risk for his own ego and selfishness. That is repulsive. He went there knowing he would be attacked. He was attacked on his first attempt, and yet he tried to return. That kind of willful behavior at the expense of the islanders' physical well being is going to bring about consequences that are 100% deserved, just as are the consequences of anyone's actions that put the safety of others behind one's own selfish motives.
| Quote: | | That said, I am not suggesting the tribe should be held legally accountable if that is not the legal precedent for similar actions in the past. There does seem to be a narrative with this story and how it is being reported as the government is taking a hands off approach to these people, and that is not exactly the case. The government heavily protects them through legislation and actively utilize national security resources to protect this population because they could not survive all of the threats and dangers in the modern world. They may not know it, but they are heavily reliant on the government for their continued existence. |
No one is claiming that the government is taking a complete hands off approach. Just the opposite. They are actively preventing the population from being contaminated by outside intervention. That's hardly the same as being highly reliant on the government. These people are an entirely self-reliant tribe, and the government is working to make sure they stay that way.
| Quote: | | Isn't this the same group who killed the fishermen in recent years who lost power to operate their boat, which then drifted to close to the island? If i recall, they killed them with arrows, swam out and drug their bodies onto the island, and they have never been seen again. Is that also fair game? |
Yes, and those fishermen knew they were fishing in illegal waters because of that island, and they chose to do so anyway. Not quite the same situation in regards to responsibility for their own fate. But similar in that hey knowingly violet the law for their own gain (fishing in waters that were protected in order to provide a safety zone for the island in hopes that they would have a more successful catch). I don't know about you, but if one willingly breaks the law to engage in an activity they know could end up in deadly results, that's on them. They are NOT a victim. They are the wiling participant in their fate.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | I don't think the man deserved to die. I believe he knew the danger of intruding into the lives of these people. What's puzzling is how so many pictures of the island are on google. LINK Who took the pictures? |
Anthropologists keep an eye on the islanders from afar and occasionally they and a handful of others have come close enough to the island to take photos. All the photos of the tribe come from a handful of encounters (if even that many), and many of those photos are from the attempt to retrieve the bodies of the fishermen who were killed there several years ago.
It's not like people are routinely boating up to the island and taking random photos and video.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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The Juggernaut
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | The desire of this island's populace to keep outsiders out is notoriously well known and has been for a long, long time. And the goal of allowing them to remain isolated for their own protection is established law.
The notion that somehow you are going to supersede all of that simply because you are bringing them "christianity" is the epitome of religious arrogance getting exactly what it deserves - a cold, hard violent death. |
I do not agree with that take....sure it was illegal and stupid for the man to do what he did.....but I do not think "illegal and stupid" is deserving of a "cold, hard violent death". |
There’s a very important reason that people are legally forbidden from visiting the island - the introduction of diseases and viruses these people have not been exposed to have no tolerance to. The island’s populace could be wiped out virtually overnight by being exposed to the wrong things. It takes a great deal of selfishness and arrogance to put the population’s survival at risk simply to attempt to impose your personal beliefs on a group of people who have no need or desire for them.
Combine that with the fact that everyone who even approaches the island is shot at and several have died over the years indicates that these people are determined to keep themselves isolated. This guy knew what he faced and yet he attempted to violate these people’s sanctity in order to impose his ideals and put them at risk by doing so.
Yes, this man got exactly the fate he asked for and deserved. To assert otherwise demonstrates the same arrogance he exhibited. You don’t get to violate the purity of that kind of population for your own purposes. And please don’t go down that, “he was trying to improve the quality of their primitive lives” because that is garbage excuse and further proves the arrogance and lack of respect |
Agreed. |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | I don't know about you, but if one willingly breaks the law to engage in an activity they know could end up in deadly results, that's on them. They are NOT a victim. They are the wiling participant in their fate. |
I feel this rational is also used in deadly police force in America or in Gaza or now on our own border. At some point this island's inhabitants defense of purity can't just give them freedom to kill. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | I don't know about you, but if one willingly breaks the law to engage in an activity they know could end up in deadly results, that's on them. They are NOT a victim. They are the wiling participant in their fate. |
I feel this rational is also used in deadly police force in America or in Gaza or now on our own border. At some point this island's inhabitants defense of purity can't just give them freedom to kill. |
That's a completely failed analogy. These are not people who have lived in the modern world in any fashion. They are literally a remote Stone Age society who has no intention of integrating with our society nor proliferating into it. Comparing them to the people of Gaza or immigrants to the US is positively ridiculous.
These people live on a remote island that is completely inconsequential to the modern world. They want no part of us and all they want is for us to have no part of them. And there is nothing wrong their desire.
There is no reason any of us in the modern world should be going there. And there is no reason that they should be willing to let us do so. To think they are somehow subject to our modern day sense of law is flat out silly (trying to be polite).
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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loslakersss
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | I don't know about you, but if one willingly breaks the law to engage in an activity they know could end up in deadly results, that's on them. They are NOT a victim. They are the wiling participant in their fate. |
I feel this rational is also used in deadly police force in America or in Gaza or now on our own border. At some point this island's inhabitants defense of purity can't just give them freedom to kill. |
This is an interesting take.
I think the natives would be more comparable to animals than people though. The police force knows of alternative options and is trained to use reasoning in high stress situations where as the natives - or a wild animal like a tiger - will only know violence.
A person (whether or not they have done anything wrong) that is resisting arrest and then gets killed is not the same situation, IMO, as what this missionary did. They don't deserve to be killed because that's not what our society's rules are. |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| This evangelist was literally going to their society with the aim of destroying it either thru diseases he was carrying or with his beliefs which would've caused chaos and destruction to whatever social hierarchy they had. They are probably violent because various empires over the years have tried to civilize them and the only way they know how to survive is to kill the invaders. |
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Buck32
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | This evangelist was literally going to their society with the aim of destroying it either thru diseases he was carrying or with his beliefs which would've caused chaos and destruction to whatever social hierarchy they had. They are probably violent because various empires over the years have tried to civilize them and the only way they know how to survive is to kill the invaders. |
This is pure arrogance and selfishness on the part of the evangelist. Not unlike the annoying door-to-door preachers/missionaries. As arrogant and selfish as the evil Mother Theresa who would rather that the poor and sick remain poor and sick than use all the millions she has received from donations.
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Was he invited
From his own words he knew he might die
He knew in his heart that trespassing into these people's land
Was a violation of those peoples God's and Beliefs
Internationa law forbid it
I cannot believe some (bleep) gave orders to try to retrieve the body
Disturbing their life even more
Take a look at how many species are GONE because of human
Virus in the ecosystem is what human is |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Not sure anyone is suggesting someone should....but claiming a a human "deserves" death based on the guys actions is repulsive in my opinion. |
Agreed. |
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Not sure anyone is suggesting someone should....but claiming a a human "deserves" death based on the guys actions is repulsive in my opinion. |
Agreed. |
I am not saying his intentions deserved death. It was the whole package. Look at the obvious
He as one man claimed he was more important than everyone alive that has so far respected these people. He was willing to Die to prove he was more important than the whole tribe
^^^^^he was a DEATH SENTENCE for them...why should they not be allowed to protect themselves
"Deserved"
There is a very deep disease in his mind and many like him
He "knew" like what are his own quotes about probably getting killed???
That is the first point he "deserved" death
Next was after they fired arrows at him. He went back "deserved " death
Next was he was willing to Die to force these people to "change"
He admittedly deserved to be killed or he wouldn't even have talked about it
What did these people do to deserve his wish to eternally change them be granted
Last I checked, this tribe isn't on The Make A Wish foundation website anywhere
Humans lack a lot of basic respect
Even worse than him getting killed is people trying to get the body back
Granting his wish to really (bleep) WITH THEIR LIVES even after his death
Who knows what weird (bleep) he introduced into their society via
His backpack and all is belongings
Plus...i doubt the people in this tribe enjoyed killing him. A LOT of stress I'm sure |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: |
That kind of willful behavior at the expense of the islanders' physical well being is going to bring about consequences that are 100% deserved, just as are the consequences of anyone's actions that put the safety of others behind one's own selfish motives |
That sounds like an argument people use to support the death penalty.
| Quote: |
I don't know about you, but if one willingly breaks the law to engage in an activity they know could end up in deadly results, that's on them. They are NOT a victim. They are the wiling participant in their fate. |
I don’t think a criminal could use that to get off in any court that I’m aware of.
Last edited by Steve007 on Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Not sure anyone is suggesting someone should....but claiming a a human "deserves" death based on the guys actions is repulsive in my opinion. |
Agreed. |
I am not saying his intentions deserved death. It was the whole package. Look at the obvious
He as one man claimed he was more important than everyone alive that has so far respected these people. He was willing to Die to prove he was more important than the whole tribe
^^^^^he was a DEATH SENTENCE for them...why should they not be allowed to protect themselves
"Deserved"
There is a very deep disease in his mind and many like him
He "knew" like what are his own quotes about probably getting killed???
That is the first point he "deserved" death
Next was after they fired arrows at him. He went back "deserved " death
Next was he was willing to Die to force these people to "change"
He admittedly deserved to be killed or he wouldn't even have talked about it
What did these people do to deserve his wish to eternally change them be granted
Last I checked, this tribe isn't on The Make A Wish foundation website anywhere
Humans lack a lot of basic respect
Even worse than him getting killed is people trying to get the body back
Granting his wish to really (bleep) WITH THEIR LIVES even after his death
Who knows what weird (bleep) he introduced into their society via
His backpack and all is belongings
Plus...i doubt the people in this tribe enjoyed killing him. A LOT of stress I'm sure |
I would say my reaction is more like “Wow that guy was really dumb to risk his life like that.” |
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | Steve007 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Not sure anyone is suggesting someone should....but claiming a a human "deserves" death based on the guys actions is repulsive in my opinion. |
Agreed. |
I am not saying his intentions deserved death. It was the whole package. Look at the obvious
He as one man claimed he was more important than everyone alive that has so far respected these people. He was willing to Die to prove he was more important than the whole tribe
^^^^^he was a DEATH SENTENCE for them...why should they not be allowed to protect themselves
"Deserved"
There is a very deep disease in his mind and many like him
He "knew" like what are his own quotes about probably getting killed???
That is the first point he "deserved" death
Next was after they fired arrows at him. He went back "deserved " death
Next was he was willing to Die to force these people to "change"
He admittedly deserved to be killed or he wouldn't even have talked about it
What did these people do to deserve his wish to eternally change them be granted
Last I checked, this tribe isn't on The Make A Wish foundation website anywhere
Humans lack a lot of basic respect
Even worse than him getting killed is people trying to get the body back
Granting his wish to really (bleep) WITH THEIR LIVES even after his death
Who knows what weird (bleep) he introduced into their society via
His backpack and all is belongings
Plus...i doubt the people in this tribe enjoyed killing him. A LOT of stress I'm sure |
I would say my reaction is more like “Wow that guy was really dumb to risk his life like that.” |
Because you have no respect for the harm he sought to cause these people
No respect for his desire to destroy
You're probably a shallow westerner |
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LakerLanny
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:35 am Post subject: |
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He thought it was cool because he gave them a football.
I guess they prefer other sports....
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governator
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Why are you guys keep applying our set of morals/way of living to this tribe?
They’ve lived isolated, morals are different, way of life is different. They believed they’re being attacked, every previous attempts to make contact with the tribe has been viewed as an attack and they’ve always defended themselves... how is this categorized as ‘murder’, it might be true in our ‘world’ but not theirs |
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numero-ocho
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:49 am Post subject: |
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John Chau rowed his boat ashore..Halleluj......
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Buck32
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | He thought it was cool because he gave them a football.
I guess they prefer other sports.... |
Like archery and javelin throw ...
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― Isaac Asimov |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | That's a completely failed analogy. |
It is a failed analogy because you are refusing to examine your perspective....in my opinion. I think there are a lot of interesting debates and points of discussion from this situation, that probably should result in mixed opinions.
First, is it ok or should it be an option for a population to totally segregate from the rest of society? We definitely do not allow that in the United States. We would never allow the people of Key West to blow up the US-1 bridge, refuse to pay taxes or adhere to federal laws (trust me, if we would allow it, they would have already done it  ) . How many times have we sent in armed agencies when a religious sect appeared to be "off the grid"? Honestly, I do not want to go down that path and debate each one on the merits, but the point is what is taking place there is not an option. We use lack of education, proper nutrition, child endangerment, etc. as excuses to roll in tanks and blackhawks if we get a hint of a population secluding itself in America.....and all of those arguments could be made about that population. Are those children better off secluded on the island? Are they given proper care or are they being abused per common human standards? Do they have access to proper healthcare when needed....or are they simply dying from simple viruses?
Last edited by adkindo on Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLanny wrote: | He thought it was cool because he gave them a football.
I guess they prefer other sports.... |
good, because if they became good at it.....we would have to create another sport that we could claim to be the best at  |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Not sure anyone is suggesting someone should....but claiming a a human "deserves" death based on the guys actions is repulsive in my opinion. |
Agreed. |
Yep. I also find it disturbing that some people are so pleased that a Christian missionary got killed. It's kind of creepy, really. I'm not religious, and I find the missionary types to be annoying, but I don't celebrate when one of them does something stupid and dies. |
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ContagiousInspiration
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | That's a completely failed analogy. |
It is a failed analogy because you are refusing to examine your perspective....in my opinion. I think there are a lot of interesting debates and points of discussion from this situation, that probably should result in mixed opinions.
First, is it ok or should it be an option for a population to totally segregate from the rest of society? We definitely do not allow that in the United States. We would never allow the people of Key West to blow up the US-1 bridge, refuse to pay taxes or adhere to federal laws (trust me, if we would allow it, they would have already done it ) . How many times have we sent in armed agencies when a religious sect appeared to be "off the grid"? Honestly, I do not want to go down that path and debate each one on the merits, but the point is what is taking place there is not an option. We use lack of education, proper nutrition, child endangerment, etc. as excuses to roll in tanks and blackhawks if we get a hint of a population secluding itself in America.....and all of those arguments could be made about that population. Are those children better off secluded on the island? Are they given proper care or are they being abused per common human standards? Do they have access to proper healthcare when needed....or are they simply dying from simple viruses? |
Was he the leader of some social scientific group who had all made the decision to change their lives forever.. most would probably die from diseases we bring before we
christianized
cololnized
and civilized them
Applying his wishes by force while the whole of the world has chosen to allow these people to live in this manner
Ya know you guys are taking this personal for some odd reasons
International Law told him NO
The arrows he shot at them told him NO
His own heart told him NO
He got killed..
I personally saw his religious reasons as not as serious as his just making the choice to go there and being told by many that he would probably die doing it.
His choice to change these people lives forever just because of his presence was what bothered me.
Forget anything about his religious thoughts...
He chose above all 7 billion that he had the right to change their lives... and knew he might die...
well maybe he is in a better place than all you whining about us glad he didn't harm those people |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | That's a completely failed analogy. |
It is a failed analogy because you are refusing to examine your perspective....in my opinion. I think there are a lot of interesting debates and points of discussion from this situation, that probably should result in mixed opinions.
First, is it ok or should it be an option for a population to totally segregate from the rest of society? We definitely do not allow that in the United States. We would never allow the people of Key West to blow up the US-1 bridge, refuse to pay taxes or adhere to federal laws (trust me, if we would allow it, they would have already done it ) . How many times have we sent in armed agencies when a religious sect appeared to be "off the grid"? Honestly, I do not want to go down that path and debate each one on the merits, but the point is what is taking place there is not an option. We use lack of education, proper nutrition, child endangerment, etc. as excuses to roll in tanks and blackhawks if we get a hint of a population secluding itself in America.....and all of those arguments could be made about that population. Are those children better off secluded on the island? Are they given proper care or are they being abused per common human standards? Do they have access to proper healthcare when needed....or are they simply dying from simple viruses? |
The reason they are segregated is simple: the benefit of integrating them to our society is outweighed by the risks. They would not only pose a risk to those trying to force them into our society, but they have no immunity to any of our pathogens, along with the violence that would be necessary to subdue them. They are not analogous to Kentucky, because they would not be blowing up a bridge and leaving a society, they have never been part of society, they don’t even know what exists beyond their island.
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Steve007 wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: |
That kind of willful behavior at the expense of the islanders' physical well being is going to bring about consequences that are 100% deserved, just as are the consequences of anyone's actions that put the safety of others behind one's own selfish motives |
That sounds like an argument people use to support the death penalty. |
The difference between Capital Punishment and this instance is that the missionary's death is a direct result of his actions, like someone jumping into the tiger enclosure at the zoo. You know there is a probability that you will get attacked and if so, death is the likely outcome. That is a function of circumstance tied directly to the act itself as opposed to a punitive action that is taken by a later that is not directly tied to the act.
The missionaries death wasn't a punishment meted out after the fact. His death was the anticipated direct outcome the action he took.
| Quote: | | Quote: |
I don't know about you, but if one willingly breaks the law to engage in an activity they know could end up in deadly results, that's on them. They are NOT a victim. They are the wiling participant in their fate. |
I don’t think a criminal could use that to get off in any court that I’m aware of. |
Huh? Not even sure what you are trying to say there.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | That's a completely failed analogy. |
It is a failed analogy because you are refusing to examine your perspective....in my opinion. I think there are a lot of interesting debates and points of discussion from this situation, that probably should result in mixed opinions.
First, is it ok or should it be an option for a population to totally segregate from the rest of society? We definitely do not allow that in the United States. We would never allow the people of Key West to blow up the US-1 bridge, refuse to pay taxes or adhere to federal laws (trust me, if we would allow it, they would have already done it ) . How many times have we sent in armed agencies when a religious sect appeared to be "off the grid"? Honestly, I do not want to go down that path and debate each one on the merits, but the point is what is taking place there is not an option. We use lack of education, proper nutrition, child endangerment, etc. as excuses to roll in tanks and blackhawks if we get a hint of a population secluding itself in America.....and all of those arguments could be made about that population. Are those children better off secluded on the island? Are they given proper care or are they being abused per common human standards? Do they have access to proper healthcare when needed....or are they simply dying from simple viruses? |
The reason they are segregated is simple: the benefit of integrating them to our society is outweighed by the risks. They would not only pose a risk to those trying to force them into our society, but they have no immunity to any of our pathogens, along with the violence that would be necessary to subdue them. They are not analogous to Kentucky, because they would not be blowing up a bridge and leaving a society, they have never been part of society, they don’t even know what exists beyond their island. |
I get everything you are claiming....but how long does the nation devote resources to protect them? 100 more years? 1000 more years? What if we learned they are sacrificing 1 child a year as a ritual? What if we learned they sacrifice every female with blue eyes when they turn 16? What if we learned over 100 children died last month from something a simple antibiotic would resolve? Do we have an obligation to step in to preserve life? I just see a lot of room for different opinions on different aspects of the situation. I am not suggesting anything should change today or tomorrow....nor am I suggesting it should not change at some point. This is by far not the only such population around the globe, and I find them fascinating in different contexts. |
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