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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:24 pm    Post subject:

ExPatLkrFan wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Yu Darvish tweeted a joke about "if there is a 2017 championship parade can someone make me a 'Yu Garbage' jersey", which was great. He's had a really good sense of humor about the whole thing. It sucks that the fans scapegoated him and treated him so poorly (myself included). But the thing that hit me was his wife's reply, recounting how their 10 year old son was at the game and stayed there til the end of the game, using his hat to hide the tears in his eyes. Stuff like that just kills me and makes me so much more furious at the Astros and the league/Manfred.


Game 7 was played at Dodger Stadium and the Astros did not use video to steal signs there. Darvish lasted 1 2/3 innings giving up 5 runs. Game 2 also played at Dodger stadium was lost by Roberts prematurely pulling Rich Hill who was killing it. Again no sign stealing.


The problem is that they utilized this scheme the entire season. Would they have gone to the World Series without this assistance? We will never know. Hell, the Yankees could've gone to the World Series instead.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:33 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
ExPatLkrFan wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Yu Darvish tweeted a joke about "if there is a 2017 championship parade can someone make me a 'Yu Garbage' jersey", which was great. He's had a really good sense of humor about the whole thing. It sucks that the fans scapegoated him and treated him so poorly (myself included). But the thing that hit me was his wife's reply, recounting how their 10 year old son was at the game and stayed there til the end of the game, using his hat to hide the tears in his eyes. Stuff like that just kills me and makes me so much more furious at the Astros and the league/Manfred.


Game 7 was played at Dodger Stadium and the Astros did not use video to steal signs there. Darvish lasted 1 2/3 innings giving up 5 runs. Game 2 also played at Dodger stadium was lost by Roberts prematurely pulling Rich Hill who was killing it. Again no sign stealing.


The problem is that they utilized this scheme the entire season. Would they have gone to the World Series without this assistance? We will never know. Hell, the Yankees could've gone to the World Series instead.


True but I was addressing the Darvish issue. He was horrible in game seven even when they apparently weren't illegally stealing signs. So he doesn't get a pass from me and Roberts doesn't either for starting him.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject:

ExPatLkrFan wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
ExPatLkrFan wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Yu Darvish tweeted a joke about "if there is a 2017 championship parade can someone make me a 'Yu Garbage' jersey", which was great. He's had a really good sense of humor about the whole thing. It sucks that the fans scapegoated him and treated him so poorly (myself included). But the thing that hit me was his wife's reply, recounting how their 10 year old son was at the game and stayed there til the end of the game, using his hat to hide the tears in his eyes. Stuff like that just kills me and makes me so much more furious at the Astros and the league/Manfred.


Game 7 was played at Dodger Stadium and the Astros did not use video to steal signs there. Darvish lasted 1 2/3 innings giving up 5 runs. Game 2 also played at Dodger stadium was lost by Roberts prematurely pulling Rich Hill who was killing it. Again no sign stealing.


The problem is that they utilized this scheme the entire season. Would they have gone to the World Series without this assistance? We will never know. Hell, the Yankees could've gone to the World Series instead.


True but I was addressing the Darvish issue. He was horrible in game seven even when they apparently weren't illegally stealing signs. So he doesn't get a pass from me and Roberts doesn't either for starting him.


The dodgers thought he was tipping pitches game 3 and had him completely changed his approach for game 7. Even IF the cheating didn't directly affect his game 3 results it still indirectly change the way he pitched in game 7.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:10 pm    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
ExPatLkrFan wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
ExPatLkrFan wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Yu Darvish tweeted a joke about "if there is a 2017 championship parade can someone make me a 'Yu Garbage' jersey", which was great. He's had a really good sense of humor about the whole thing. It sucks that the fans scapegoated him and treated him so poorly (myself included). But the thing that hit me was his wife's reply, recounting how their 10 year old son was at the game and stayed there til the end of the game, using his hat to hide the tears in his eyes. Stuff like that just kills me and makes me so much more furious at the Astros and the league/Manfred.


Game 7 was played at Dodger Stadium and the Astros did not use video to steal signs there. Darvish lasted 1 2/3 innings giving up 5 runs. Game 2 also played at Dodger stadium was lost by Roberts prematurely pulling Rich Hill who was killing it. Again no sign stealing.


The problem is that they utilized this scheme the entire season. Would they have gone to the World Series without this assistance? We will never know. Hell, the Yankees could've gone to the World Series instead.


True but I was addressing the Darvish issue. He was horrible in game seven even when they apparently weren't illegally stealing signs. So he doesn't get a pass from me and Roberts doesn't either for starting him.


The dodgers thought he was tipping pitches game 3 and had him completely changed his approach for game 7. Even IF the cheating didn't directly affect his game 3 results it still indirectly change the way he pitched in game 7.


Exactly. So much of pitching is the psychological battle between pitcher and hitter. Look what happens when a fast base runner gets on first. Completely changes the dynamic.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:49 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
nickuku wrote:
ExPatLkrFan wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
ExPatLkrFan wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Yu Darvish tweeted a joke about "if there is a 2017 championship parade can someone make me a 'Yu Garbage' jersey", which was great. He's had a really good sense of humor about the whole thing. It sucks that the fans scapegoated him and treated him so poorly (myself included). But the thing that hit me was his wife's reply, recounting how their 10 year old son was at the game and stayed there til the end of the game, using his hat to hide the tears in his eyes. Stuff like that just kills me and makes me so much more furious at the Astros and the league/Manfred.


Game 7 was played at Dodger Stadium and the Astros did not use video to steal signs there. Darvish lasted 1 2/3 innings giving up 5 runs. Game 2 also played at Dodger stadium was lost by Roberts prematurely pulling Rich Hill who was killing it. Again no sign stealing.


The problem is that they utilized this scheme the entire season. Would they have gone to the World Series without this assistance? We will never know. Hell, the Yankees could've gone to the World Series instead.


True but I was addressing the Darvish issue. He was horrible in game seven even when they apparently weren't illegally stealing signs. So he doesn't get a pass from me and Roberts doesn't either for starting him.


The dodgers thought he was tipping pitches game 3 and had him completely changed his approach for game 7. Even IF the cheating didn't directly affect his game 3 results it still indirectly change the way he pitched in game 7.


Exactly. So much of pitching is the psychological battle between pitcher and hitter. Look what happens when a fast base runner gets on first. Completely changes the dynamic.


And the fact he was great the first two rounds and had a 'bad' game 3. You figure the odds are, he would've adjusted.

Again, hindsight is 20/20...if we started Wood or Kershaw and they crapped the bed, everyone probably would've railed Roberts for not going to Yu.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:23 pm    Post subject:

oasisdude77 wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:
nickuku wrote:
ExPatLkrFan wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
ExPatLkrFan wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Yu Darvish tweeted a joke about "if there is a 2017 championship parade can someone make me a 'Yu Garbage' jersey", which was great. He's had a really good sense of humor about the whole thing. It sucks that the fans scapegoated him and treated him so poorly (myself included). But the thing that hit me was his wife's reply, recounting how their 10 year old son was at the game and stayed there til the end of the game, using his hat to hide the tears in his eyes. Stuff like that just kills me and makes me so much more furious at the Astros and the league/Manfred.


Game 7 was played at Dodger Stadium and the Astros did not use video to steal signs there. Darvish lasted 1 2/3 innings giving up 5 runs. Game 2 also played at Dodger stadium was lost by Roberts prematurely pulling Rich Hill who was killing it. Again no sign stealing.


The problem is that they utilized this scheme the entire season. Would they have gone to the World Series without this assistance? We will never know. Hell, the Yankees could've gone to the World Series instead.


True but I was addressing the Darvish issue. He was horrible in game seven even when they apparently weren't illegally stealing signs. So he doesn't get a pass from me and Roberts doesn't either for starting him.


The dodgers thought he was tipping pitches game 3 and had him completely changed his approach for game 7. Even IF the cheating didn't directly affect his game 3 results it still indirectly change the way he pitched in game 7.


Exactly. So much of pitching is the psychological battle between pitcher and hitter. Look what happens when a fast base runner gets on first. Completely changes the dynamic.


And the fact he was great the first two rounds and had a 'bad' game 3. You figure the odds are, he would've adjusted.

Again, hindsight is 20/20...if we started Wood or Kershaw and they crapped the bed, everyone probably would've railed Roberts for not going to Yu.


The tipping pitches was an obvious cover story in retrospect. Yu sat down with Chase Utley to break down hours of film and Chase came away with nothing. This is Chase Utley who's been one of the best ever at picking these things up.

https://dodgerblue.com/andrew-friedman-dodgers-player-good-at-picking-up-pitch-tipping-refutes-notion-yu-darvish-tipped-pitches-in-2017-world-series/2019/11/16/

Such a lying ass franchise. Just like that incident with the reporter and the way they handled it. Lying is in their DNA. Lie, deflect, get caught, act contrite. What a playbook.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:29 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
Such a lying ass franchise. Just like that incident with the reporter and the way they handled it. Lying is in their DNA. Lie, deflect, get caught, act contrite. What a playbook.


Will be interesting to see if/how the culture changes with Luhnow gone. Probably won’t:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ny-jim-crane-astros-owner-discrimination-lawsuit-20191024-uvlxxuhfo5apxmfoijz3n4h2aa-story.html%3foutputType=amp
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:55 pm    Post subject:

Are pitchers gonna go after Houston batters?

I wonder what the retaliation will be from their peers.

If I'm Kershaw I'm f'ing pissed. Those postseason losses tainted his career big time.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:36 am    Post subject:

Hammett wrote:
Are pitchers gonna go after Houston batters?

I wonder what the retaliation will be from their peers.

If I'm Kershaw I'm f'ing pissed. Those postseason losses tainted his career big time.


Likely none if this type of cheating is rampant throughout baseball.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:00 am    Post subject:

Quote:
L.A. City Council to vote on resolution asking MLB to strip Red Sox, Astros of titles

The Los Angeles City Council will vote on a resolution Friday requesting that baseball commissioner Rob Manfred strip the Boston Red Sox of the 2018 World Series title and the Houston Astros of their 2017 Series title and award both to the team that lost those Fall Classics, the L.A. Dodgers.

Council members Gil Cedillo and Paul Koretz put forth the resolution on Wednesday...

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/la-city-council-vote-resolution-asking-mlb-strip-red-sox-astros-titles
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:14 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Quote:
L.A. City Council to vote on resolution asking MLB to strip Red Sox, Astros of titles

The Los Angeles City Council will vote on a resolution Friday requesting that baseball commissioner Rob Manfred strip the Boston Red Sox of the 2018 World Series title and the Houston Astros of their 2017 Series title and award both to the team that lost those Fall Classics, the L.A. Dodgers.

Council members Gil Cedillo and Paul Koretz put forth the resolution on Wednesday...

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/la-city-council-vote-resolution-asking-mlb-strip-red-sox-astros-titles


oh please, i don't want those stinky titles anyone if i were the Dodgers, just vacant them that's all i want.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:22 am    Post subject:

Yes, I think vacating the titles is the way to go.

Can't give them to the Dodgers as they didn't win them on an unbalanced field, but make Houston and Boston take the banners down and strip them off the titles officially.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:27 am    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
Yes, I think vacating the titles is the way to go.

Can't give them to the Dodgers as they didn't win them on an unbalanced field, but make Houston and Boston take the banners down and strip them off the titles officially.


What do you and others then think about the WS share that goes to the players? I would have no problem fining any player who participated in this, at least, his WS share. I might even go as far as fining any player with knowledge.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:44 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Yes, I think vacating the titles is the way to go.

Can't give them to the Dodgers as they didn't win them on an unbalanced field, but make Houston and Boston take the banners down and strip them off the titles officially.


What do you and others then think about the WS share that goes to the players? I would have no problem fining any player who participated in this, at least, his WS share. I might even go as far as fining any player with knowledge.


This would violate their immunity agreement.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:00 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
ribeye wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Yes, I think vacating the titles is the way to go.

Can't give them to the Dodgers as they didn't win them on an unbalanced field, but make Houston and Boston take the banners down and strip them off the titles officially.


What do you and others then think about the WS share that goes to the players? I would have no problem fining any player who participated in this, at least, his WS share. I might even go as far as fining any player with knowledge.


This would violate their immunity agreement.


I have read that they have immunity "of sorts" but I've not seen the actual verbiage. Regardless, unless there is some agreement that specifically states that if you talk you will receive no punishment whatsoever, since the WS shares were not earned, they should be forfeited--to all if need be.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:26 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
ribeye wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
Yes, I think vacating the titles is the way to go.

Can't give them to the Dodgers as they didn't win them on an unbalanced field, but make Houston and Boston take the banners down and strip them off the titles officially.


What do you and others then think about the WS share that goes to the players? I would have no problem fining any player who participated in this, at least, his WS share. I might even go as far as fining any player with knowledge.


This would violate their immunity agreement.


I have read that they have immunity "of sorts" but I've not seen the actual verbiage. Regardless, unless there is some agreement that specifically states that if you talk you will receive no punishment whatsoever, since the WS shares were not earned, they should be forfeited--to all if need be.


Immunity is an all encompassing word. By itself, it means full immunity. If you want it to be only partial immunity, you'd have to clarify that and spell it out. But if you say, "I grant you immunity," that means full immunity.

So, it's up to MLB to say to the players, we will grant you immunity, except we reserve the right to take away your WS money. That would then make it partial immunity.

Yeah, if mlb did decide to take away their WS money, they'd have a fight on their hands with the mlbpa.

I agree with you that they should. I really don't think they will.

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MLB granted players immunity for their cooperation during the Astros' investigation and those protections apply to Beltran, who was a player then and a manager now.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:52 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Hammett wrote:
Are pitchers gonna go after Houston batters?

I wonder what the retaliation will be from their peers.

If I'm Kershaw I'm f'ing pissed. Those postseason losses tainted his career big time.


Likely none if this type of cheating is rampant throughout baseball.


Why are you excusing it if it is rampant like you say? Wouldn't the correct stance be that Houston got caught and deserves to be punished. And I hope if other teams are doing it then they are caught and punished too? Don't exonerate a team with evidence of cheating because you suspect other teams have done the same when you have zero evidence to back up that claim.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:58 am    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Hammett wrote:
Are pitchers gonna go after Houston batters?

I wonder what the retaliation will be from their peers.

If I'm Kershaw I'm f'ing pissed. Those postseason losses tainted his career big time.


Likely none if this type of cheating is rampant throughout baseball.


Why are you excusing it if it is rampant like you say? Wouldn't the correct stance be that Houston got caught and deserves to be punished. And I hope if other teams are doing it then they are caught and punished too? Don't exonerate a team with evidence of cheating because you suspect other teams have done the same when you have zero evidence to back up that claim.


Exactly. Catch them all like steroid users.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:32 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Hammett wrote:
Are pitchers gonna go after Houston batters?

I wonder what the retaliation will be from their peers.

If I'm Kershaw I'm f'ing pissed. Those postseason losses tainted his career big time.


Likely none if this type of cheating is rampant throughout baseball.


Why are you excusing it if it is rampant like you say? Wouldn't the correct stance be that Houston got caught and deserves to be punished. And I hope if other teams are doing it then they are caught and punished too? Don't exonerate a team with evidence of cheating because you suspect other teams have done the same when you have zero evidence to back up that claim.


Exactly. Catch them all like steroid users.


Yeah man, it's just such a sweeping generalization. No, not all teams are cheating. Contrary to your belief, many times do things the right way.

Now if you're talking about of stealing signs with on runner 2nd base trying to decode the catchers signs (still kind of bush league but expected) or perhaps seeing a 'tell' from a pitcher or something, that is not cheating. That's the equivalent of flopping or creating contact to get a foul in basketball.

But we're talking about using electronic equipment here. Going to extreme lengths to gain an advantage. I hardly believe that is rampant in baseball.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:42 am    Post subject:

oasisdude77 wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Hammett wrote:
Are pitchers gonna go after Houston batters?

I wonder what the retaliation will be from their peers.

If I'm Kershaw I'm f'ing pissed. Those postseason losses tainted his career big time.


Likely none if this type of cheating is rampant throughout baseball.


Why are you excusing it if it is rampant like you say? Wouldn't the correct stance be that Houston got caught and deserves to be punished. And I hope if other teams are doing it then they are caught and punished too? Don't exonerate a team with evidence of cheating because you suspect other teams have done the same when you have zero evidence to back up that claim.


Exactly. Catch them all like steroid users.


Yeah man, it's just such a sweeping generalization. No, not all teams are cheating. Contrary to your belief, many times do things the right way.

Now if you're talking about of stealing signs with on runner 2nd base trying to decode the catchers signs (still kind of bush league but expected) or perhaps seeing a 'tell' from a pitcher or something, that is not cheating. That's the equivalent of flopping or creating contact to get a foul in basketball.

But we're talking about using electronic equipment here. Going to extreme lengths to gain an advantage. I hardly believe that is rampant in baseball.


Yup, if it's rampant, it will come out.

There's no point in saying I know it's rampant BUT it won't come out. That's just a silly stance.


Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:

If it is rampant, it will come out.


No it won’t. It will only come out if players go on record about it. Steroids were rampant. What % of players have come forth and said we cheated? Players were still lying under Congressional oath about it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:55 am    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Hammett wrote:
Are pitchers gonna go after Houston batters?

I wonder what the retaliation will be from their peers.

If I'm Kershaw I'm f'ing pissed. Those postseason losses tainted his career big time.


Likely none if this type of cheating is rampant throughout baseball.


Why are you excusing it if it is rampant like you say? Wouldn't the correct stance be that Houston got caught and deserves to be punished. And I hope if other teams are doing it then they are caught and punished too? Don't exonerate a team with evidence of cheating because you suspect other teams have done the same when you have zero evidence to back up that claim.


I said Houston deserved to be punished. Maybe you are confusing my posts with someone else. I also said talks of stripping titles and the like are things that will never happen.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:57 am    Post subject:

oasisdude77 wrote:
But we're talking about using electronic equipment here. Going to extreme lengths to gain an advantage. I hardly believe that is rampant in baseball.


Then you disagree with the Athletic, who broke this story. That was their point (the bolded).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:59 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

Yup, if it's rampant, it will come out.


No it won't. Not unless others players come forward to tell on their former teams and teammates. That's the only reason Houston got caught. I don't know why you keep saying this. Without players on record MLB has no case, hence them offering players immunity to cooperate.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:12 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:

Yup, if it's rampant, it will come out.


No it won't. Not unless others players come forward to tell on their former teams and teammates. That's the only reason Houston got caught. I don't know why you keep saying this. Without players on record MLB has no case, hence them offering players immunity to cooperate.


Yup, now you've carried this over to 2 threads.

In a week where the Astros were punished, Red Sox fired Cora and Mets fired Beltran, you want to discuss about how rampant it is in mlb and how it'll never come out.

If I check in on the political thread, will you be in there claiming how rampant this is in mlb?

Quote:
Here you go though, mlb is investigating EVERY team right now:


7:26 mark


Quote:
Yes, more teams than the Astros and Red Sox stole signs, but that doesn’t excuse them

There’s an element to all of this Astros and Red Sox news that keeps coming up that I want to dig in to. Indeed, it’s a thing that comes up every single time a team or a player gets in trouble for something. It’s the “hey, they weren’t the only ones doing it! They were singled out!” defense, almost always mounted by fans of the teams or players who get busted.

First, let’s be 100 percent clear about something: the Astros and the Red Sox were not — not by a long shot — the only teams stealing signs. To suggest that they were is to live in fantasyland. Tom Verducci reported the other day that the investigation of the Astros led to at least seven or eight other teams being mentioned. Last night Michael Baumann of The Ringer linked to stories over the past couple of months in which sources said they believed that the Diamondbacks, Indians, Rangers, Cubs, Blue Jays, Nationals and Brewers have engaged in sign-stealing shenanigans as well.

And hey, from the “it takes one to know one” department, let us not forget this little thing from last summer when, after the Yankees pounded the Red Sox in London, Alex Cora said that the Yankees’ biggest offseason addition was Carlos Beltrán, complete with a wink:


He follows that with “we have to clean our details,” which is an obvious reference to signs. If you think he’s not talking about the Yankees engaging in some sign-stealing, you’re deluding yourself. Which, of course, becomes the jumping off point for that “no fair, we were singled out!” sentiment so many Astros and Red Sox fans have shared in the past few days.

I have two words for that: tough crap. Wait, make it four: grow up.

Just because there may be teams who, at present, are getting away with something does not mean that the Sox and Astros are any less culpable. To suggest that is to engage in the most basic form of whataboutism, which is a fallacy we see in political discourse all too often. It even has a name: “Tu quoque” — Latin for “you too.” It’s a form of reasoning which goes like this:

Fred: “You should stop drinking, Bob, it’s destroying your life.”
Bob: “You’ve been drinking since you were 21!”


The second assertion may be true, but it does nothing to address or refute the first assertion. Indeed, it’s a way of avoiding the first assertion. Bob may be a drinker, but maybe he’s not a problem drinker. And no matter what the case is with Bob, it doesn’t mean Fred isn’t ruining his life.

Tu quoque reasoning is designed to obfuscate and to create the illusion of false equivalency. It’s likewise a form of ad hominem argument, designed to throw attention on the one making an accusation rather than answer for the accusation. As many who lived under dictatorships observed — people like Vaclav Havel — it’s a favorite tactic of demagogues who use it and its superficial appeal to inspire surrogates to turn on their critics. We’ve seen its use positively explode since Trump got elected.

This “what about the other teams” business is a classic example of that. So too is a thing I’ve seen from some or the more disreputable stools at the great sports bar in which we all imbibe: the notion that, because one of the reporters who broke these stories — Evan Drellich of the Athletic — covered both the Red Sox and the Astros in recent years, he’s biased or has an axe to grind or that he’s out to get them and that that somehow discredits him and/or makes what those teams did less worse.

Based on what I read Drellich may very well have a legitimate beef with some people in the Astros’ front office, but so what? That doesn’t change the facts which he reported and which have now been vindicated by Major League Baseball’s investigation. The notion that his reporting has come first and foremost on the two teams with whom he has the best sources is not, as some high-profile media figures have claimed, suspicious either. Indeed, that’s EXACTLY who a reporter should be reporting on. If reporters who have sources with other teams aren’t doing as good a job with this story as Drellich is with the Astros and Sox, that’s a slight on them, not him. To go after him is to put yourself back in ad hominem land. It is also to fundamentally misunderstand how reporting works.

Yes, reporters should be trying as hard as they can to break open the sign-stealing story and report on what, if anything, the other 28 teams have done in this regard. Likewise, Major League Baseball should — as I have argued over and over again — be investigating all of baseball for this, not just looking at Houston and Boston, leveling punishment, declaring the matter closed and walking away. That the league tends not to do that — that it tends to put out fires in response to bad press as opposed to solve problems of which it becomes aware in a thorough manner — is a black mark on its record, even if it’s a longstanding practice under this commissioner and under his predecessors.

But that all of this hasn’t, at least as of yet, come out in uniform, 30-team reports with lockstep discipline does not make what the Astros and Red Sox have done any better. It doesn’t excuse them or make their punishment unjust. It’s simply a matter of the lowest-hanging fruit being grabbed first. Which happens pretty often in life, almost always in situations and settings far more important than baseball and in a way which works far more injustice than a team losing its manager or GM. It sucks, but it happens more often than it doesn’t. If you break the rules you can be mad that others who broke the rules didn’t get caught too, but you still broke the damn rules. Absent some actual evidence of an improper purpose-driven singling out, such complaints are not exactly compelling.

To hear those complaining otherwise puts me in mind of my kids arguing over who got the biggest piece of cake. To them I’ll say exactly what I told my kids: life isn’t always fair, bunky. Grow up. That approach worked pretty well on my kids, who were like five years-old at the time. Let’s see if it works with putatively grown up sports fans.

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2020/01/15/yes-more-teams-than-the-astros-and-red-sox-stole-signs-but-that-doesnt-excuse-them/
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Dreamshake
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:47 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:

Yup, if it's rampant, it will come out.


No it won't. Not unless others players come forward to tell on their former teams and teammates. That's the only reason Houston got caught. I don't know why you keep saying this. Without players on record MLB has no case, hence them offering players immunity to cooperate.


Yup, now you've carried this over to 2 threads.

In a week where the Astros were punished, Red Sox fired Cora and Mets fired Beltran, you want to discuss about how rampant it is in mlb and how it'll never come out.

If I check in on the political thread, will you be in there claiming how rampant this is in mlb?

Quote:
Here you go though, mlb is investigating EVERY team right now:


7:26 mark


Quote:
Yes, more teams than the Astros and Red Sox stole signs, but that doesn’t excuse them

There’s an element to all of this Astros and Red Sox news that keeps coming up that I want to dig in to. Indeed, it’s a thing that comes up every single time a team or a player gets in trouble for something. It’s the “hey, they weren’t the only ones doing it! They were singled out!” defense, almost always mounted by fans of the teams or players who get busted.

First, let’s be 100 percent clear about something: the Astros and the Red Sox were not — not by a long shot — the only teams stealing signs. To suggest that they were is to live in fantasyland. Tom Verducci reported the other day that the investigation of the Astros led to at least seven or eight other teams being mentioned. Last night Michael Baumann of The Ringer linked to stories over the past couple of months in which sources said they believed that the Diamondbacks, Indians, Rangers, Cubs, Blue Jays, Nationals and Brewers have engaged in sign-stealing shenanigans as well.

And hey, from the “it takes one to know one” department, let us not forget this little thing from last summer when, after the Yankees pounded the Red Sox in London, Alex Cora said that the Yankees’ biggest offseason addition was Carlos Beltrán, complete with a wink:


He follows that with “we have to clean our details,” which is an obvious reference to signs. If you think he’s not talking about the Yankees engaging in some sign-stealing, you’re deluding yourself. Which, of course, becomes the jumping off point for that “no fair, we were singled out!” sentiment so many Astros and Red Sox fans have shared in the past few days.

I have two words for that: tough crap. Wait, make it four: grow up.

Just because there may be teams who, at present, are getting away with something does not mean that the Sox and Astros are any less culpable. To suggest that is to engage in the most basic form of whataboutism, which is a fallacy we see in political discourse all too often. It even has a name: “Tu quoque” — Latin for “you too.” It’s a form of reasoning which goes like this:

Fred: “You should stop drinking, Bob, it’s destroying your life.”
Bob: “You’ve been drinking since you were 21!”


The second assertion may be true, but it does nothing to address or refute the first assertion. Indeed, it’s a way of avoiding the first assertion. Bob may be a drinker, but maybe he’s not a problem drinker. And no matter what the case is with Bob, it doesn’t mean Fred isn’t ruining his life.

Tu quoque reasoning is designed to obfuscate and to create the illusion of false equivalency. It’s likewise a form of ad hominem argument, designed to throw attention on the one making an accusation rather than answer for the accusation. As many who lived under dictatorships observed — people like Vaclav Havel — it’s a favorite tactic of demagogues who use it and its superficial appeal to inspire surrogates to turn on their critics. We’ve seen its use positively explode since Trump got elected.

This “what about the other teams” business is a classic example of that. So too is a thing I’ve seen from some or the more disreputable stools at the great sports bar in which we all imbibe: the notion that, because one of the reporters who broke these stories — Evan Drellich of the Athletic — covered both the Red Sox and the Astros in recent years, he’s biased or has an axe to grind or that he’s out to get them and that that somehow discredits him and/or makes what those teams did less worse.

Based on what I read Drellich may very well have a legitimate beef with some people in the Astros’ front office, but so what? That doesn’t change the facts which he reported and which have now been vindicated by Major League Baseball’s investigation. The notion that his reporting has come first and foremost on the two teams with whom he has the best sources is not, as some high-profile media figures have claimed, suspicious either. Indeed, that’s EXACTLY who a reporter should be reporting on. If reporters who have sources with other teams aren’t doing as good a job with this story as Drellich is with the Astros and Sox, that’s a slight on them, not him. To go after him is to put yourself back in ad hominem land. It is also to fundamentally misunderstand how reporting works.

Yes, reporters should be trying as hard as they can to break open the sign-stealing story and report on what, if anything, the other 28 teams have done in this regard. Likewise, Major League Baseball should — as I have argued over and over again — be investigating all of baseball for this, not just looking at Houston and Boston, leveling punishment, declaring the matter closed and walking away. That the league tends not to do that — that it tends to put out fires in response to bad press as opposed to solve problems of which it becomes aware in a thorough manner — is a black mark on its record, even if it’s a longstanding practice under this commissioner and under his predecessors.

But that all of this hasn’t, at least as of yet, come out in uniform, 30-team reports with lockstep discipline does not make what the Astros and Red Sox have done any better. It doesn’t excuse them or make their punishment unjust. It’s simply a matter of the lowest-hanging fruit being grabbed first. Which happens pretty often in life, almost always in situations and settings far more important than baseball and in a way which works far more injustice than a team losing its manager or GM. It sucks, but it happens more often than it doesn’t. If you break the rules you can be mad that others who broke the rules didn’t get caught too, but you still broke the damn rules. Absent some actual evidence of an improper purpose-driven singling out, such complaints are not exactly compelling.

To hear those complaining otherwise puts me in mind of my kids arguing over who got the biggest piece of cake. To them I’ll say exactly what I told my kids: life isn’t always fair, bunky. Grow up. That approach worked pretty well on my kids, who were like five years-old at the time. Let’s see if it works with putatively grown up sports fans.

https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2020/01/15/yes-more-teams-than-the-astros-and-red-sox-stole-signs-but-that-doesnt-excuse-them/


That was a quality pivot there. The Astros stuff came out because a player went on record. How else do you think it will come out if other players don't go on record? Why did a player have to come out for MLB to do a deep investigation? It's not like folks haven't been complaining about Houston for years.
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