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ChickenStu
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 Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| leor_77 wrote: | | Skip Bayless actually made a good point earlier today...Kershaw gets a lot of criticism for his performances in the post-season (much of which he deserves)...But Verlander doesn't get any criticism, despite being 0-6 in WS games. The only difference is Verlander's team carried him in 2017. |
Yeah, his record isn't good in the World Series. It's still not the same thing. Kershaw has flat-out gotten bombed in the postseason. Often. His postseason ERA is literally almost two full runs higher than his regular season ERA. Verlander's postseason ERA is .07 higher. I'm not saying that Verlander isn't without blame, but this isn't a remotely comparable situation. |
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oasisdude77
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | Dodgers year will probably be the one time they are a wildcard team, dominating the regular season has not been a formula that has worked the past couple of seasons. |
The formula has worked fine. It’s our imbecile manager and supposed ace/closer that haven’t been up to snuff in the playoffs |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| oasisdude77 wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Dodgers year will probably be the one time they are a wildcard team, dominating the regular season has not been a formula that has worked the past couple of seasons. |
The formula has worked fine. It’s our imbecile manager and supposed ace/closer that haven’t been up to snuff in the playoffs |
I probably said this a year ago, but what are the chances Roberts still believes Kershaw is an ace next season? |
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Surfitall
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:29 am Post subject: |
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ESPN just ranked the Dodgers #1 in their way too early power rankings for 2020. Nats my have just won the World Series, but...we’re number one!
We have a great team, but some huge question marks around pitching. Will we resign Ryu? What do we do about a closer? Jansen isn’t going to be getting any younger or better. Buehler is a legitimate playoff ace, but who else? |
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SGV-Laker fan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:59 am Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | leor_77 wrote: | | Skip Bayless actually made a good point earlier today...Kershaw gets a lot of criticism for his performances in the post-season (much of which he deserves)...But Verlander doesn't get any criticism, despite being 0-6 in WS games. The only difference is Verlander's team carried him in 2017. |
Yeah, his record isn't good in the World Series. It's still not the same thing. Kershaw has flat-out gotten bombed in the postseason. Often. His postseason ERA is literally almost two full runs higher than his regular season ERA. Verlander's postseason ERA is .07 higher. I'm not saying that Verlander isn't without blame, but this isn't a remotely comparable situation. |
exactly, i'd take Verlander (even at this age) over Kershaw any day of the week during post season. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: | ESPN just ranked the Dodgers #1 in their way too early power rankings for 2020. Nats my have just won the World Series, but...we’re number one!
We have a great team, but some huge question marks around pitching. Will we resign Ryu? What do we do about a closer? Jansen isn’t going to be getting any younger or better. Buehler is a legitimate playoff ace, but who else? |
That and the fact that the team that beat them was in a zone that carried them all the way to the World Series title is why it is not best to overreact to that loss. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | oasisdude77 wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Dodgers year will probably be the one time they are a wildcard team, dominating the regular season has not been a formula that has worked the past couple of seasons. |
The formula has worked fine. It’s our imbecile manager and supposed ace/closer that haven’t been up to snuff in the playoffs |
I probably said this a year ago, but what are the chances Roberts still believes Kershaw is an ace next season? |
Whatever you want to call him, I'll take 16-5, third in the league, and 3.03, seventh in the league, any year. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | leor_77 wrote: | | Skip Bayless actually made a good point earlier today...Kershaw gets a lot of criticism for his performances in the post-season (much of which he deserves)...But Verlander doesn't get any criticism, despite being 0-6 in WS games. The only difference is Verlander's team carried him in 2017. |
Yeah, his record isn't good in the World Series. It's still not the same thing. Kershaw has flat-out gotten bombed in the postseason. Often. His postseason ERA is literally almost two full runs higher than his regular season ERA. Verlander's postseason ERA is .07 higher. I'm not saying that Verlander isn't without blame, but this isn't a remotely comparable situation. |
I disagree.
If, as so many here say or suggest, that it is the World Series or nothing, I'd not only say they are comparable, I'd give the edge to Kersh. Kersh 1-3 / 5.40 vs. 0-6 /5.82. |
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oasisdude77
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | oasisdude77 wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Dodgers year will probably be the one time they are a wildcard team, dominating the regular season has not been a formula that has worked the past couple of seasons. |
The formula has worked fine. It’s our imbecile manager and supposed ace/closer that haven’t been up to snuff in the playoffs |
I probably said this a year ago, but what are the chances Roberts still believes Kershaw is an ace next season? |
Whatever you want to call him, I'll take 16-5, third in the league, and 3.03, seventh in the league, any year. |
But it is worth if it if he, ultimately, flames out in a key situation in the playoffs?
I'll take a guys who puts up lesser numbers who can actually nut up in the playoffs. |
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loslakersss
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| ^ He did 'nut up' in 2015 and 2017 [until game 5]. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| oasisdude77 wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | oasisdude77 wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Dodgers year will probably be the one time they are a wildcard team, dominating the regular season has not been a formula that has worked the past couple of seasons. |
The formula has worked fine. It’s our imbecile manager and supposed ace/closer that haven’t been up to snuff in the playoffs |
I probably said this a year ago, but what are the chances Roberts still believes Kershaw is an ace next season? |
Whatever you want to call him, I'll take 16-5, third in the league, and 3.03, seventh in the league, any year. |
But it is worth if it if he, ultimately, flames out in a key situation in the playoffs?
I'll take a guys who puts up lesser numbers who can actually nut up in the playoffs. |
Well, you gotta get there first, and there have been just about zero pitchers in the history of the game better than Kersh during the regular season.
Once, you're there, he should not be used as anything but as a third or fourth starter, and never as a reliever. |
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oasisdude77
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | oasisdude77 wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | oasisdude77 wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Dodgers year will probably be the one time they are a wildcard team, dominating the regular season has not been a formula that has worked the past couple of seasons. |
The formula has worked fine. It’s our imbecile manager and supposed ace/closer that haven’t been up to snuff in the playoffs |
I probably said this a year ago, but what are the chances Roberts still believes Kershaw is an ace next season? |
Whatever you want to call him, I'll take 16-5, third in the league, and 3.03, seventh in the league, any year. |
But it is worth if it if he, ultimately, flames out in a key situation in the playoffs?
I'll take a guys who puts up lesser numbers who can actually nut up in the playoffs. |
Well, you gotta get there first, and there have been just about zero pitchers in the history of the game better than Kersh during the regular season.
Once, you're there, he should not be used as anything but as a third or fourth starter, and never as a reliever. |
Can't argue with you there...I just wish our manager could see this |
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oasisdude77
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| loslakersss wrote: | | ^ He did 'nut up' in 2015 and 2017 [until game 5]. |
2017 game 5 basically trumps anything postseason success he's had, in my opinion. |
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epak
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Man. If we can replace sorry ***, sucks when it counts, Corey for Lindor.... That would be a dream come true. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'm over the Kershaw defending. Sorry, rib. And you've cited his ERA this year before, but his FIP was almost 3.90 and his profile/stuff suggests a #3 starter--at best--going forward. And that's if you remove the psychological aspect of his postseason failures. By his own words, he sounded like a dude who doesn't know if he can do it when it counts.
I was on record as saying that I would have let him opt out last winter and I stand firmly behind that. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | I'm over the Kershaw defending. Sorry, rib. And you've cited his ERA this year before, but his FIP was almost 3.90 and his profile/stuff suggests a #3 starter--at best--going forward. And that's if you remove the psychological aspect of his postseason failures. By his own words, he sounded like a dude who doesn't know if he can do it when it counts.
I was on record as saying that I would have let him opt out last winter and I stand firmly behind that. |
It's too bad that you are not impressed with a 16-5 record and a 3.03 ERA when the league is at 4.49. He's had to adjust due to his back issues, but even here his production has never been at a #3 level-except maybe his rookie year.
I find FIP to be next to useless as a stat, and far less meaningful compared to ERA, ERA+ or ERA-or even RA (run average, to which Kersh was 3.18). As for Kersh being too rattled to be effective in the future, I can't say, but I'm trusting he is still strong mentally. If not, let's blame the guy who put him in the situation to relieve when his worst inning, by far, is his first.
Obviously, I'm still glad the Dodgers signed him. |
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LAkers 4 Life
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Jansen expectedly decides not to opt out of his deal. That's $19 million AAV wasted on the guy. This will unfortunately be the same scenario with Pollock in a couple of years as he'd be a fool to opt out (unless he PEDs his way to a new deal). Between the 2 of them they would count about $30 million against the cap.  Only way to justify it is if they both have turnaround seasons and the Dodgers win it all. |
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oasisdude77
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | I'm over the Kershaw defending. Sorry, rib. And you've cited his ERA this year before, but his FIP was almost 3.90 and his profile/stuff suggests a #3 starter--at best--going forward. And that's if you remove the psychological aspect of his postseason failures. By his own words, he sounded like a dude who doesn't know if he can do it when it counts.
I was on record as saying that I would have let him opt out last winter and I stand firmly behind that. |
It's too bad that you are not impressed with a 16-5 record and a 3.03 ERA when the league is at 4.49. He's had to adjust due to his back issues, but even here his production has never been at a #3 level-except maybe his rookie year.
I find FIP to be next to useless as a stat, and far less meaningful compared to ERA, ERA+ or ERA-or even RA (run average, to which Kersh was 3.18). As for Kersh being too rattled to be effective in the future, I can't say, but I'm trusting he is still strong mentally. If not, let's blame the guy who put him in the situation to relieve when his worst inning, by far, is his first.
Obviously, I'm still glad the Dodgers signed him. |
I’m with ChickenStu on this, obviously. His regular season stats definitely lose their luster when he repeatedly flames out in the playoffs. We’ve shown in the past we can play well during extended Kershaw absences and our team is talented enough to get there without him.
And while I agree our stupid manager shouldn’t have put him out there in relief, he still should’ve sucked it up and got the job done.
Also, along with ChickenStu, I was not happy they extended him. It’s kinda mind boggling, really considering how many playoff games he’s lost us. |
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kcxiv
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| oasisdude77 wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | I'm over the Kershaw defending. Sorry, rib. And you've cited his ERA this year before, but his FIP was almost 3.90 and his profile/stuff suggests a #3 starter--at best--going forward. And that's if you remove the psychological aspect of his postseason failures. By his own words, he sounded like a dude who doesn't know if he can do it when it counts.
I was on record as saying that I would have let him opt out last winter and I stand firmly behind that. |
It's too bad that you are not impressed with a 16-5 record and a 3.03 ERA when the league is at 4.49. He's had to adjust due to his back issues, but even here his production has never been at a #3 level-except maybe his rookie year.
I find FIP to be next to useless as a stat, and far less meaningful compared to ERA, ERA+ or ERA-or even RA (run average, to which Kersh was 3.18). As for Kersh being too rattled to be effective in the future, I can't say, but I'm trusting he is still strong mentally. If not, let's blame the guy who put him in the situation to relieve when his worst inning, by far, is his first.
Obviously, I'm still glad the Dodgers signed him. |
I’m with ChickenStu on this, obviously. His regular season stats definitely lose their luster when he repeatedly flames out in the playoffs. We’ve shown in the past we can play well during extended Kershaw absences and our team is talented enough to get there without him.
And while I agree our stupid manager shouldn’t have put him out there in relief, he still should’ve sucked it up and got the job done.
Also, along with ChickenStu, I was not happy they extended him. It’s kinda mind boggling, really considering how many playoff games he’s lost us. |
Im a Kershaw, fan, i will always be. He's a great human being and regular season pitcher! I just dont want to see him have a significant role in the post season anymore. Im over that part. Its about the Dodgers, not about 1 guy. He will never be an asset when it comes to post season play! Now that his Fastball isnt 94, it kind of ruins his other pitches and the speed change isnt there anymore.
You have to know when its time to move on! Its time. |
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ribeye
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed universal, or nearly so, that everyone was raving about how genius it was that the Astros traded for Greinke. Greinke was 35 in 2019, with zero rings and is 3-6, 4.21 in the post season. They gave up four players and he earned or is due to earn about $105M through 2021.
Kersh is and always has been a Dodger (I know loyalty is meaningless to some), is a first ballot HOF player, an ace for, at least, a decade, the Dodgers gave up nothing to keep him, and he earned or is due to earn $93M (about $12M less) through 2021. Kersh was 31 in 2019, is 9-11, 4.50 in the post season--very comparable to Greinke.
So, how is Greinke a great trade and the signing of the Kersh, a mistake? |
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oasisdude77
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed universal, or nearly so, that everyone was raving about how genius it was that the Astros traded for Greinke. Greinke was 35 in 2019, with zero rings and is 3-6, 4.21 in the post season. They gave up four players and he earned or is due to earn about $105M through 2021.
Kersh is and always has been a Dodger (I know loyalty is meaningless to some), is a first ballot HOF player, an ace for, at least, a decade, the Dodgers gave up nothing to keep him, and he earned or is due to earn $93M (about $12M less) through 2021. Kersh was 31 in 2019, is 9-11, 4.50 in the post season--very comparable to Greinke.
So, how is Greinke a great trade and the signing of the Kersh, a mistake? |
Can’t speak for others, but I was never too concerned with the Astros acquiring Greinke as we’ve proven we can hit the guy as a D’back.
And I get loyalty and all, but it’s also a business. He’s failed so many times in crucial moments, I just cannot see how it can be justified to pay him that much. Rather they use that money on younger guys and let them take their crack at it as opposed to trying to see if Kershaw can get it done yet again. |
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LAkers 4 Life
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Unfortunately the Dodgers mirror the san jose sharks. Great regular season, no rings to show for it. Top players have not shown the grit that's needed in the postseason. It's something that is extremely difficult to quantify. Some players just thrive under that spotlight (like Buehler) whereas others haven't figured it out yet (Kershaw, Roberts, etc.). |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed universal, or nearly so, that everyone was raving about how genius it was that the Astros traded for Greinke. Greinke was 35 in 2019, with zero rings and is 3-6, 4.21 in the post season. They gave up four players and he earned or is due to earn about $105M through 2021.
Kersh is and always has been a Dodger (I know loyalty is meaningless to some), is a first ballot HOF player, an ace for, at least, a decade, the Dodgers gave up nothing to keep him, and he earned or is due to earn $93M (about $12M less) through 2021. Kersh was 31 in 2019, is 9-11, 4.50 in the post season--very comparable to Greinke.
So, how is Greinke a great trade and the signing of the Kersh, a mistake? |
Well, the Astros committed to Greinke for two full seasons and a postseason run this year where he was their #3 starter. And he pitched an awesome Game 7 for them. He certainly hasn't been perfect in the postseason, and it's actually ironic that he was at his best in the postseason in his career as a Dodger. The Dodgers committed to give Kershaw two additional years (added to his scheduled final year of his old deal), even though he showed obvious signs of decline in both velocity and his ability to stay healthy. Say what you want about Greinke, but he's pitched 618.2 innings since the start of the 2017 season. Kershaw has pitched 514.2 innings in that same time period. This past season, not only did Greinke have the better ERA, but he also had the better FIP (by .64), WHIP, K/BB ratio (by a lot), and he allowed 7 fewer homers despite pitching significantly more innings. And if you don't like FIP, Greinke also had Kershaw in ERA+ by plenty, 154 to 137.
In other words, you can certainly make the case that Greinke is better than Kershaw is right now, despite being about 4 and a half years older. I can agree that giving Kershaw the money that they did for 3 years hasn't hamstrung the franchise long-term. However, I think it could have been used in a better way. I'm pretty consistent in how I view these things: I was pissed when we gave Kobe that extension, although those circumstances were different (I believed it ruined our chances to be truly competitive in a salary-cap league, and, to be fair, Kershaw is still quite effective in the regular season, even if I think he's more of a mid-rotation starter now). Anyway, I can agree that beyond his salary, the biggest problem I have is that we still use him like he's our savior. Ryu probably deserved the Game 2 assignment this year, and obviously, going to him in relief in Game 5 was a major mistake. |
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epak
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:14 am Post subject: |
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| LAkers 4 Life wrote: | | Unfortunately the Dodgers mirror the san jose sharks. Great regular season, no rings to show for it. Top players have not shown the grit that's needed in the postseason. It's something that is extremely difficult to quantify. Some players just thrive under that spotlight (like Buehler) whereas others haven't figured it out yet (Kershaw, Roberts, etc.). |
Only 2 guys I trust in the playoffs: Turner and Walker. And formerly Puig. |
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LAkers 4 Life
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | LAkers 4 Life wrote: | | Unfortunately the Dodgers mirror the san jose sharks. Great regular season, no rings to show for it. Top players have not shown the grit that's needed in the postseason. It's something that is extremely difficult to quantify. Some players just thrive under that spotlight (like Buehler) whereas others haven't figured it out yet (Kershaw, Roberts, etc.). |
Only 2 guys I trust in the playoffs: Turner and Walker. And formerly Puig. |
For me, I'd add Muncy.... and sometimes Joc. |
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