|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
LAkers 4 Life
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 14629
|
 Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | Yordan Alvarez hit 3 hr today.
17hr
51 rbi
45 games
This trade is becoming Pedro Martinez-esque.
This might be our worse trade since Pedro. |
If this dude comes back to hurt us in the WS this year, oh man.....
That's going to be brutal to take. |
Yep. Shoot, even if they win the World Series and Alvarez continues to mash, it'll be very hard to take. I still wonder why the Dodgers gave up on him so early in his career when they didn't really know what they had. Baseball is strange that way. A lot of trades like this happens. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
LonzoLegend2
Starting Rotation
Joined: 05 Aug 2017
Posts: 680
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Besides Alvarez, this Domenican kid who replaced Puig is s mashing for the Reds and breaking rookie records as well.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jonnybravo
Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30679
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LAkers 4 Life wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | Yordan Alvarez hit 3 hr today.
17hr
51 rbi
45 games
This trade is becoming Pedro Martinez-esque.
This might be our worse trade since Pedro. |
Uggh... why did you have to remind me of 2 trades I didn't like?  The Pedro Martinez trade I absolutely despised at the time because I felt he was the best pitcher on the squad (Lasorda's stupid mistake of underestimating him because of his size). The Yordan Alvarez trade I didn't like at all because of his potential, especially for Fields who wasn't doing much at the time. |
I thought the Konerko for Jeff Shaw trade was kind of poopoo as well in retrospect.
_________________
KOBE |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChickenStu
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Konerko trade obviously turned out to suck, but he was not a can't-miss prospect at the time (he was highly-regarded, sure, but let's not act like he was thought of like Fernando Tatis Jr. is or something), and Jeff Shaw was a good relief pitcher who did save 129 games for the Dodgers over 4 seasons (a few months of one season after the trade, plus 3 other seasons). Of course, Konerko goes on to have a long, productive career, so it looks bad. But at least the guy we got performed reasonably well. (It's interesting to look back on Shaw's stats and find that despite the high save totals, he wasn't anything close to a high-strikeout guy. At all!)
As for the Yordan Alvarez deal, no one in the game thought he was a top prospect. That doesn't mean a guy can't pop, of course. Obviously, the Astros saw something that compelled them to take a shot. The Dodgers clearly favor versatility in their players, and I think they saw him as a DH without a position who would have to rake to justify playing at all. Obviously, he looks like a stud. I mean, it happens. The Dodgers have turned out so many quality prospects that I think it's hard to fret too much at missing on one in a deal.
As for the possibility of trading for Felipe Vazquez, I'm glad the Dodgers didn't move Ruiz and Lux for him. Too much. I would've moved Ruiz and someone else besides Lux or May. The Dodgers know they have massive talents in those latter two guys, and they simply were not going to move either one for a relief pitcher, and I happen to agree with that assessment. As much as I wanted relief help, I think you can't be foolish, and it was reported that the Pirates wanted both Lux and May, let alone Ruiz plus one of those guys. The Pirates are going to continue to tread water at best for a couple more years, and they will end up moving Vazquez at some point for a worse offer than what they could've received from the Dodgers this year. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ribeye
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12630
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChickenStu wrote: | The Konerko trade obviously turned out to suck, but he was not a can't-miss prospect at the time (he was highly-regarded, sure, but let's not act like he was thought of like Fernando Tatis Jr. is or something), and Jeff Shaw was a good relief pitcher who did save 129 games for the Dodgers over 4 seasons (a few months of one season after the trade, plus 3 other seasons). Of course, Konerko goes on to have a long, productive career, so it looks bad. But at least the guy we got performed reasonably well. (It's interesting to look back on Shaw's stats and find that despite the high save totals, he wasn't anything close to a high-strikeout guy. At all!)
As for the Yordan Alvarez deal, no one in the game thought he was a top prospect. That doesn't mean a guy can't pop, of course. Obviously, the Astros saw something that compelled them to take a shot. The Dodgers clearly favor versatility in their players, and I think they saw him as a DH without a position who would have to rake to justify playing at all. Obviously, he looks like a stud. I mean, it happens. The Dodgers have turned out so many quality prospects that I think it's hard to fret too much at missing on one in a deal.
As for the possibility of trading for Felipe Vazquez, I'm glad the Dodgers didn't move Ruiz and Lux for him. Too much. I would've moved Ruiz and someone else besides Lux or May. The Dodgers know they have massive talents in those latter two guys, and they simply were not going to move either one for a relief pitcher, and I happen to agree with that assessment. As much as I wanted relief help, I think you can't be foolish, and it was reported that the Pirates wanted both Lux and May, let alone Ruiz plus one of those guys. The Pirates are going to continue to tread water at best for a couple more years, and they will end up moving Vazquez at some point for a worse offer than what they could've received from the Dodgers this year. |
Good post. I wanted to refresh my memory and looked up that big signing period when the Dodgers went crazy for all those Cuban prospects.
https://www.truebluela.com/2016/6/15/11951878/yordan-alvarez-contract-dodgers-cuba-international-signing-period
I'd say the Dodgers pretty much "messed" (there are better words) that up royally. Maybe their 16th ranked (mlb.com) prospect, Estavez, will make it to the bigs, but it doesn't look like he will have much of an impact if he does.
Nearly 100 million dollars pretty much down the drain.
_________________
"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16137
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChickenStu wrote: |
As for the Yordan Alvarez deal, no one in the game thought he was a top prospect. That doesn't mean a guy can't pop, of course. Obviously, the Astros saw something that compelled them to take a shot. The Dodgers clearly favor versatility in their players, and I think they saw him as a DH without a position who would have to rake to justify playing at all. Obviously, he looks like a stud. I mean, it happens. The Dodgers have turned out so many quality prospects that I think it's hard to fret too much at missing on one in a deal.
|
All that could be true and it still doesn't make sense.
1) They gave him a $2M signing bonus. That's 1st rd money. Dodgers signed both their 1st rd picks this year to $2M+. Their 2nd rd pick got $1M.
2) If they only viewed him as a DH, they still signed him and gave him $2M. They obviously saw something in him.
3) They never got to see him play. They shipped him off without seeing him play. You want to make an informed decision and the best way to do that is to at least be able to see the guy play and properly evaluate him for a year or so.
4) The Astros weren't dead set on getting Alvarez. It wasn't Alvarez or bust. They went through a whole list of prospects and the Dodgers kept saying no until they got to Alvarez. I'm sure Alvarez wasn't the last prospect on the list the Astros would accept.
5) This FO's track record with signing Latino players is pretty much 0%. They've invested huge money into international signings of Latin players and are batting .000.
They made a big splash in 2015 and struck out. Look at all the great players they passed on/failed to sign:
| Quote: |
1. Eddy Julio Martinez, OF, Cuba -
2. Yadier Alvarez, RHP, Cuba - Dodgers* ($16,000,000)
3. Lucius Fox, SS, Bahamas - Giants ($6,000,000)
4. Vladimir Guerrero Jr., OF, Dominican Republic - Blue Jays* ($3,900,000)
5. Starling Heredia, OF, Dominican Republic - Dodgers* ($2,600,000)
6. Jhailyn Ortiz, OF, Dominican Republic - Phillies ($4,000,000)
7. Gilberto Celestino, OF, Dominican Republic - Astros ($2,500,000)
8. Wander Javier, SS, Dominican Republic - Twins ($4,000,000)
9. Seuly Matias, OF, Dominican Republic - Royals ($2,250,000)
10. Cristian Pache, OF, Dominican Republic - Braves* ($1,400,000)
11. Alvaro Seijas, RHP, Venezuela - Cardinals ($762,500)
12. Daniel Montano, OF, Venezuela - Rockies ($2,000,000)
13. Yonathan Perlaza, SS, Venezuela - Cubs ($1,300,000)
14. Albert Guaimaro, OF, Venezuela - Red Sox ($300,000)
15. Andres Gimenez, INF, Venezuela - Mets ($1,200,000)
16. Yonathan Sierra Estiwal, OF, Dominican - Cubs ($2,500,000)
17. Gregory Guerrero, SS, Dominican Republic - Mets ($1,500,000)
18. Leodys Taveras, OF, Dominican Republic - Rangers* ($2,100,000)
19. Aramis Ademan, SS, Dominican Republic - Cubs ($2,000,000)
20. Anderson Amarista, RHP, Venezuela - Rockies ($600,000)
21. Ronny Brito, SS, Dominican Republic - Dodgers* ($2,000,000)
22. Juan Soto, OF, Dominican Republic - Nationals* ($1,500,000)
23. Cristian Olivo, OF, Dominican Republic - Reds ($1,000,000)
24. Derian Cruz, SS, Dominican Republic - Braves* ($2,000,000)
25. Miguel Amaya, C, Panama - Cubs ($1,250,000)
26. Carlos Vargas, SS, Dominican Republic - Mariners ($1,700,000)
27. Fernando Tatis Jr., SS, Dominican Republic - White Sox* ($700,000)
28. Christopher Martinez, 3B, Dominican Republic - Cubs ($1,000,000)
29. Jeison Guzman, SS, Dominican Republic - Royals ($1,500,000)
30. Franklin Reyes, OF, Dominican Republic - White Sox* ($1,500,000) |
Add to this list Hector Oliveras and some others I can't remember. Then on top of that, we let go of Yordan Alvarez and so we're pretty much batting .000 on our Latino International signings.
Right now, our only hope is Diego Cartaya.
This FO has been amazing with the North American draft and scouting players already in mlb and the minor leagues, but they've stunked when it comes to evaluating Latin International talent. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ribeye
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12630
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
I've been keeping my eye on this guy and I guess I'm not the only one.
He hasn’t allowed a run in almost a month
_________________
"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
greenfrog
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 36081
Location: 502 Bad Gateway
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChickenStu wrote: | The Konerko trade obviously turned out to suck, but he was not a can't-miss prospect at the time (he was highly-regarded, sure, but let's not act like he was thought of like Fernando Tatis Jr. is or something), and Jeff Shaw was a good relief pitcher who did save 129 games for the Dodgers over 4 seasons (a few months of one season after the trade, plus 3 other seasons). Of course, Konerko goes on to have a long, productive career, so it looks bad. But at least the guy we got performed reasonably well. (It's interesting to look back on Shaw's stats and find that despite the high save totals, he wasn't anything close to a high-strikeout guy. At all!)
As for the Yordan Alvarez deal, no one in the game thought he was a top prospect. That doesn't mean a guy can't pop, of course. Obviously, the Astros saw something that compelled them to take a shot. The Dodgers clearly favor versatility in their players, and I think they saw him as a DH without a position who would have to rake to justify playing at all. Obviously, he looks like a stud. I mean, it happens. The Dodgers have turned out so many quality prospects that I think it's hard to fret too much at missing on one in a deal.
As for the possibility of trading for Felipe Vazquez, I'm glad the Dodgers didn't move Ruiz and Lux for him. Too much. I would've moved Ruiz and someone else besides Lux or May. The Dodgers know they have massive talents in those latter two guys, and they simply were not going to move either one for a relief pitcher, and I happen to agree with that assessment. As much as I wanted relief help, I think you can't be foolish, and it was reported that the Pirates wanted both Lux and May, let alone Ruiz plus one of those guys. The Pirates are going to continue to tread water at best for a couple more years, and they will end up moving Vazquez at some point for a worse offer than what they could've received from the Dodgers this year. |
I dunno. The exact description I seem to recall for Konerko the most was in fact "can't miss". What made that trade so infuriating was that the team wasn't any good to begin with. What difference did it make if they had a closer or not (and as it turned out it made none). The factors today are quite different, though. They ARE just a piece away. They are really DAMN good. I think this is when you do make that kind of a trade. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ribeye
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12630
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| greenfrog wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | The Konerko trade obviously turned out to suck, but he was not a can't-miss prospect at the time (he was highly-regarded, sure, but let's not act like he was thought of like Fernando Tatis Jr. is or something), and Jeff Shaw was a good relief pitcher who did save 129 games for the Dodgers over 4 seasons (a few months of one season after the trade, plus 3 other seasons). Of course, Konerko goes on to have a long, productive career, so it looks bad. But at least the guy we got performed reasonably well. (It's interesting to look back on Shaw's stats and find that despite the high save totals, he wasn't anything close to a high-strikeout guy. At all!)
As for the Yordan Alvarez deal, no one in the game thought he was a top prospect. That doesn't mean a guy can't pop, of course. Obviously, the Astros saw something that compelled them to take a shot. The Dodgers clearly favor versatility in their players, and I think they saw him as a DH without a position who would have to rake to justify playing at all. Obviously, he looks like a stud. I mean, it happens. The Dodgers have turned out so many quality prospects that I think it's hard to fret too much at missing on one in a deal.
As for the possibility of trading for Felipe Vazquez, I'm glad the Dodgers didn't move Ruiz and Lux for him. Too much. I would've moved Ruiz and someone else besides Lux or May. The Dodgers know they have massive talents in those latter two guys, and they simply were not going to move either one for a relief pitcher, and I happen to agree with that assessment. As much as I wanted relief help, I think you can't be foolish, and it was reported that the Pirates wanted both Lux and May, let alone Ruiz plus one of those guys. The Pirates are going to continue to tread water at best for a couple more years, and they will end up moving Vazquez at some point for a worse offer than what they could've received from the Dodgers this year. |
I dunno. The exact description I seem to recall for Konerko the most was in fact "can't miss". What made that trade so infuriating was that the team wasn't any good to begin with. What difference did it make if they had a closer or not (and as it turned out it made none). The factors today are quite different, though. They ARE just a piece away. They are really DAMN good. I think this is when you do make that kind of a trade. |
I remembered it more the way CStu did, but upon looking him up, while can't miss might be a bit much, he did have some good minor league stats. Maybe my thinking was a bit jaded because Brock and Marshall had such awesome minor league stats, better than Konerko, and were both can't miss as I recall, maybe my thinking was that Konerko would complete the trilogy.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=konerk001pau
_________________
"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16137
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| greenfrog wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | The Konerko trade obviously turned out to suck, but he was not a can't-miss prospect at the time (he was highly-regarded, sure, but let's not act like he was thought of like Fernando Tatis Jr. is or something), and Jeff Shaw was a good relief pitcher who did save 129 games for the Dodgers over 4 seasons (a few months of one season after the trade, plus 3 other seasons). Of course, Konerko goes on to have a long, productive career, so it looks bad. But at least the guy we got performed reasonably well. (It's interesting to look back on Shaw's stats and find that despite the high save totals, he wasn't anything close to a high-strikeout guy. At all!)
As for the Yordan Alvarez deal, no one in the game thought he was a top prospect. That doesn't mean a guy can't pop, of course. Obviously, the Astros saw something that compelled them to take a shot. The Dodgers clearly favor versatility in their players, and I think they saw him as a DH without a position who would have to rake to justify playing at all. Obviously, he looks like a stud. I mean, it happens. The Dodgers have turned out so many quality prospects that I think it's hard to fret too much at missing on one in a deal.
As for the possibility of trading for Felipe Vazquez, I'm glad the Dodgers didn't move Ruiz and Lux for him. Too much. I would've moved Ruiz and someone else besides Lux or May. The Dodgers know they have massive talents in those latter two guys, and they simply were not going to move either one for a relief pitcher, and I happen to agree with that assessment. As much as I wanted relief help, I think you can't be foolish, and it was reported that the Pirates wanted both Lux and May, let alone Ruiz plus one of those guys. The Pirates are going to continue to tread water at best for a couple more years, and they will end up moving Vazquez at some point for a worse offer than what they could've received from the Dodgers this year. |
I dunno. The exact description I seem to recall for Konerko the most was in fact "can't miss". What made that trade so infuriating was that the team wasn't any good to begin with. What difference did it make if they had a closer or not (and as it turned out it made none). The factors today are quite different, though. They ARE just a piece away. They are really DAMN good. I think this is when you do make that kind of a trade. |
In 1998, Paul Konerko was the no. 2 ranked prospect in all of baseball
| Quote: |
2019
No. 1 - Vladimir Guerrero Jr, 3B Blue Jays
No. 2 - Fernando Tatis Jr., SS Padres
2018
No. 1 - Ronald Acuna, OF Braves
No. 2 - Shohei Ohtani, RHP/DH Angels
2017
No. 1 - Andrew Benintendi, OF Red Sox
No. 2 - Yoan Moncada, 2B White Sox
2016
No. 1 - Corey Seager, SS Dodgers
No. 2 - Byron Buxton, OF Twins
2015
No. 1 - Kris Bryant, 3B Cubs
No. 2 - Byron Buxton, OF Twins
2014
No. 1 - Byron Buxton, OF Twins
No. 2 - Xander Bogaerts, SS Red Sox
2013
No. 1 - Jurickson Profar, SS Rangers
No. 2 - Dylan Bundy, RHP Orioles
2012
No. 1 - Bryce Harper, OF Nationals
No. 2 - Matt Moore, LHP Rays
2011
No. 1 - Bryce Harper, OF Nationals
No. 2 - Mike Trout, OF Angels
2010
No. 1 - Jason Heyward, OF Braves
No. 2 - Stephen Strasburg Nationals
2009
No. 1 - Matt Wieters, C Orioles
No. 2 - David Price, LHP Rays
2008
No. 1 - Jay Bruce, OF Reds
No. 2 - Evan Longoria, 3B Rays
2007
No. 1 - Daisuke Matsuzaka, RHP Red Sox
No. 2 - Alex Gordon, 3B Royals
2006
No. 1 - Delmon Young, OF Rays
No. 2 - Justin Upton, SS/OF D-backs
2005
No. 1 - Joe Mauer, C Twins
No. 2 - Felix Hernandez, RHP Mariners
2004
No. 1 - Joe Mauer, C Twins
No. 2 - B.J. Upton, OF Rays
2003
No. 1 - Mark Teixeira, 3B Rangers
No. 2 - Rocco Baldelli, OF Rays
2002
No. 1 - Josh Beckett, RHP Marlins
No. 2 - Mark Prior, RHP Cubs
2001
No. 1 - Josh Hamilton, OF Rays
No. 2 - Corey Patterson, OF Cubs
2000
No. 1 - Rick Ankiel, LHP Cardinals
No. 2 - Pat Burrell, OF Phillies
1999
No. 1 - J.D. Drew, OF Cardinals
No. 2 - Rick Ankiel, LHP Cardinals
1998
No. 1 - Ben Grieve, OF Athletics
No. 2 - Paul Konerko, 1B Dodgers
1997
No. 1 - Andruw Jones, OF Braves
No. 2 - Vladimir Guerrero, OF Expos
1996
No. 1 - Andruw Jones, OF Braves
No. 2 - Paul Wilson, RHP Mets
1995
No. 1 - Alex Rodriguez, SS Mariners
No. 2 - Ruben Rivera, OF Yankees
1994
No. 1 - Cliff Floyd, OF Expos
No. 2 - Chipper Jones, SS Braves
1993
No. 1 - Chipper Jones, SS Braves
No. 2 - Brien Taylor, LHP Yankees
1992
No. 1 - Brien Taylor, LHP Yankees
No. 2 - Todd Van Poppel, RHP Athletics
1991
No. 1 - Todd Van Poppel, RHP Athletics
No. 2 - Andujar Cedeno, SS Astros
1990
No. 1 - Steve Avery, LHP Braves
No. 2 - Ben McDonald, RHP Orioles
https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/all-time-baseball-america-no-1-prospects/
|
| Quote: | On July 4, 1998, the Reds traded Shaw to the Dodgers for Paul Konerko and Dennys Reyes. This trade was not what Shaw wanted. He had signed a three-year extension with the Reds after he won the Rolaids Reliever of the Year Award for the 1997 season.
Though he could have bargained for a higher rate elsewhere, he was willing to sign at a discount, so he could commute from Washington Court House, a little over 70 miles from Cincinnati, when the Reds were at home to be near his wife and small children. Shaw's agent, Joe Bick, claimed that they had asked the Reds’ general manager Jim Bowden for a no-trade clause, but no such provision was ever put into Shaw's contract.
Shaw was called out of a game to take a call from Bowden when he was told that he would be traded to L.A., which was, in Shaw's words, "’…the farthest place from Washington Court House.’"
Because Shaw had so recently signed a long-term contract, he was entitled to ask for a trade. To keep Shaw, the L.A. general manager, Kevin Malone ended up spending more than he bargained for. Shaw signed a three-year, $15 million contract making him the one of the highest paid closers in the league.His wife and children moved out to California with him. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
greenfrog
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 36081
Location: 502 Bad Gateway
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ribeye wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | The Konerko trade obviously turned out to suck, but he was not a can't-miss prospect at the time (he was highly-regarded, sure, but let's not act like he was thought of like Fernando Tatis Jr. is or something), and Jeff Shaw was a good relief pitcher who did save 129 games for the Dodgers over 4 seasons (a few months of one season after the trade, plus 3 other seasons). Of course, Konerko goes on to have a long, productive career, so it looks bad. But at least the guy we got performed reasonably well. (It's interesting to look back on Shaw's stats and find that despite the high save totals, he wasn't anything close to a high-strikeout guy. At all!)
As for the Yordan Alvarez deal, no one in the game thought he was a top prospect. That doesn't mean a guy can't pop, of course. Obviously, the Astros saw something that compelled them to take a shot. The Dodgers clearly favor versatility in their players, and I think they saw him as a DH without a position who would have to rake to justify playing at all. Obviously, he looks like a stud. I mean, it happens. The Dodgers have turned out so many quality prospects that I think it's hard to fret too much at missing on one in a deal.
As for the possibility of trading for Felipe Vazquez, I'm glad the Dodgers didn't move Ruiz and Lux for him. Too much. I would've moved Ruiz and someone else besides Lux or May. The Dodgers know they have massive talents in those latter two guys, and they simply were not going to move either one for a relief pitcher, and I happen to agree with that assessment. As much as I wanted relief help, I think you can't be foolish, and it was reported that the Pirates wanted both Lux and May, let alone Ruiz plus one of those guys. The Pirates are going to continue to tread water at best for a couple more years, and they will end up moving Vazquez at some point for a worse offer than what they could've received from the Dodgers this year. |
I dunno. The exact description I seem to recall for Konerko the most was in fact "can't miss". What made that trade so infuriating was that the team wasn't any good to begin with. What difference did it make if they had a closer or not (and as it turned out it made none). The factors today are quite different, though. They ARE just a piece away. They are really DAMN good. I think this is when you do make that kind of a trade. |
I remembered it more the way CStu did, but upon looking him up, while can't miss might be a bit much, he did have some good minor league stats. Maybe my thinking was a bit jaded because Brock and Marshall had such awesome minor league stats, better than Konerko, and were both can't miss as I recall, maybe my thinking was that Konerko would complete the trilogy.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=konerk001pau |
I have a precise memory of Skip Carey (or Chip, I forget which was the middle one) during a Braves telecast discussing the trade deadline deals saying: "The one I couldn't believe was Konerko. Wasn't that kid suppose to be "can't miss"?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChickenStu
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
^
Hmm, maybe he was can't-miss. LOL. I wonder why my memory isn't of him like that. Maybe he had a cup of coffee with the Dodgers and looked terrible? (Going to look that up now...and yes. In 166 plate appearances with the Dodgers over parts of two seasons, he had a .212 average and a .569 OPS.)
Also, despite his 439 career homers, over an 18-year career he put up 27.7 WAR, which equates to roughly 1.5 WAR per season, with an OPS+ of 118. He wasn't that good. Another first base/DH type, Carlos Delgado, put up 44.4 WAR over a 17-year career with a 138 OPS+. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChickenStu
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ryu is through 6 scoreless at the Ravine, and we're up 8-0. Ryu's ERA since July 1, you ask? How about 0.47. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jonnybravo
Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30679
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
With regards to Konerko...I just know that I wasn't even a big baseball follower at all but I did read enough in articles about Konerko coming up that he was this beast of a slugger.
_________________
KOBE |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
greenfrog
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 36081
Location: 502 Bad Gateway
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChickenStu wrote: | ^
Hmm, maybe he was can't-miss. LOL. I wonder why my memory isn't of him like that. Maybe he had a cup of coffee with the Dodgers and looked terrible? (Going to look that up now...and yes. In 166 plate appearances with the Dodgers over parts of two seasons, he had a .212 average and a .569 OPS.)
Also, despite his 439 career homers, over an 18-year career he put up 27.7 WAR, which equates to roughly 1.5 WAR per season, with an OPS+ of 118. He wasn't that good. Another first base/DH type, Carlos Delgado, put up 44.4 WAR over a 17-year career with a 138 OPS+. |
He definitely underwhelmed as a Dodger. Part of that was due to playing out of position (LF) because of the stupid contract they gave Karros. I actually thought other player he was traded for, Mike Cameron, was the best of the bunch at the time, but it worked out pretty well for the White Sox.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/white-sox/ct-paul-konerko-mike-cameron-spt-0927-20140927-story.html
God, Lasorda was a clueless trainwreck of a GM. That team should have been selling, not buying. Even Ted Lilly had a decent career if memory serves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChickenStu
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Make that 7 scoreless innings for the South Korean beast!
Daniel Preciado
@DanJPreciado
·
2m
Hyun-Jin Ryu holds an insane 1.57 ERA since the 2018 All-Star Break.
He holds a whopping 79 point gap over the next best pitcher in that span (Jacob deGrom at 2.36). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jonnybravo
Retired Number
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30679
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
He's a 1.05 ERA without the Coors game I believe. Son of a (bleep) would be chasing a freaking sub 1.0 ERA. Un-real.
_________________
KOBE |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16137
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Somehow, dude can't keep a roster spot:
| Quote: | | The Dodgers have activated injured starter Hyun-Jin Ryu from the injured list, according to Ken Gurnick of MLB.com. To clear a roster spot for Ryu, right-handed pitcher Casey Sadler has been optioned to Triple-A. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve007
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13221
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LAkers 4 Life wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | Yordan Alvarez hit 3 hr today.
17hr
51 rbi
45 games
This trade is becoming Pedro Martinez-esque.
This might be our worse trade since Pedro. |
Uggh... why did you have to remind me of 2 trades I didn't like? The Pedro Martinez trade I absolutely despised at the time because I felt he was the best pitcher on the squad (Lasorda's stupid mistake of underestimating him because of his size). The Yordan Alvarez trade I didn't like at all because of his potential, especially for Fields who wasn't doing much at the time. |
I hated the Pedro trade the moment it happened too. Then Delino DeShields had to make it worse by stinking it up for 3 years. He put up a -1.4 WAR in 1996 and the team lost the division by 1 game that year. Would have avoided the Braves in the first round. Those Dodger teams needed more offense and he made the problem worse when he was supposed to make it better. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve007
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13221
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| greenfrog wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | The Konerko trade obviously turned out to suck, but he was not a can't-miss prospect at the time (he was highly-regarded, sure, but let's not act like he was thought of like Fernando Tatis Jr. is or something), and Jeff Shaw was a good relief pitcher who did save 129 games for the Dodgers over 4 seasons (a few months of one season after the trade, plus 3 other seasons). Of course, Konerko goes on to have a long, productive career, so it looks bad. But at least the guy we got performed reasonably well. (It's interesting to look back on Shaw's stats and find that despite the high save totals, he wasn't anything close to a high-strikeout guy. At all!)
As for the Yordan Alvarez deal, no one in the game thought he was a top prospect. That doesn't mean a guy can't pop, of course. Obviously, the Astros saw something that compelled them to take a shot. The Dodgers clearly favor versatility in their players, and I think they saw him as a DH without a position who would have to rake to justify playing at all. Obviously, he looks like a stud. I mean, it happens. The Dodgers have turned out so many quality prospects that I think it's hard to fret too much at missing on one in a deal.
As for the possibility of trading for Felipe Vazquez, I'm glad the Dodgers didn't move Ruiz and Lux for him. Too much. I would've moved Ruiz and someone else besides Lux or May. The Dodgers know they have massive talents in those latter two guys, and they simply were not going to move either one for a relief pitcher, and I happen to agree with that assessment. As much as I wanted relief help, I think you can't be foolish, and it was reported that the Pirates wanted both Lux and May, let alone Ruiz plus one of those guys. The Pirates are going to continue to tread water at best for a couple more years, and they will end up moving Vazquez at some point for a worse offer than what they could've received from the Dodgers this year. |
I dunno. The exact description I seem to recall for Konerko the most was in fact "can't miss". What made that trade so infuriating was that the team wasn't any good to begin with. What difference did it make if they had a closer or not (and as it turned out it made none). The factors today are quite different, though. They ARE just a piece away. They are really DAMN good. I think this is when you do make that kind of a trade. |
It was made on July 3rd. After July 2, the team had a 42-42 record and was 11.5 games behind first. They could have traded for any closer in the history of the game and he wasn’t going to help them overcome that gap.
Not sure where the team was in the wild card race but who cares? The team wasn’t even close to looking like a playoff team.
I DO remember Konerko really struggling but it was still obviously way too early to give up on him. I think I do remember people expecting him to be a guy that could hit around 25-35 home runs and hit around .270. I think I kind of had a puzzled, skeptical and surprised reaction to the trade.
Last edited by Steve007 on Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChickenStu
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Some interesting info from Dave Roberts after the game. He said that neither Rich Hill nor Ross Stripling will have enough time before the end of the regular season to build back up to be a starting pitcher. So, we can count out Hill as a potential Game 4 starter in the postseason. That would seem to leave Maeda (yuck), May, Urias, or Gonsolin. I'm pretty sure they will use Maeda as a situational righty to get a right-handed hitter or two out in the postseason out of the 'pen. So that leaves the three kids. I'm guessing they all make the postseason roster, but you never know. So much uncertainty right now, though all 3 of those kids have great stuff and could be the key to our entire postseason, for all we know.
And maybe Rich Hill gets some big outs out of the bullpen, too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChickenStu
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Steve007 wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | The Konerko trade obviously turned out to suck, but he was not a can't-miss prospect at the time (he was highly-regarded, sure, but let's not act like he was thought of like Fernando Tatis Jr. is or something), and Jeff Shaw was a good relief pitcher who did save 129 games for the Dodgers over 4 seasons (a few months of one season after the trade, plus 3 other seasons). Of course, Konerko goes on to have a long, productive career, so it looks bad. But at least the guy we got performed reasonably well. (It's interesting to look back on Shaw's stats and find that despite the high save totals, he wasn't anything close to a high-strikeout guy. At all!)
As for the Yordan Alvarez deal, no one in the game thought he was a top prospect. That doesn't mean a guy can't pop, of course. Obviously, the Astros saw something that compelled them to take a shot. The Dodgers clearly favor versatility in their players, and I think they saw him as a DH without a position who would have to rake to justify playing at all. Obviously, he looks like a stud. I mean, it happens. The Dodgers have turned out so many quality prospects that I think it's hard to fret too much at missing on one in a deal.
As for the possibility of trading for Felipe Vazquez, I'm glad the Dodgers didn't move Ruiz and Lux for him. Too much. I would've moved Ruiz and someone else besides Lux or May. The Dodgers know they have massive talents in those latter two guys, and they simply were not going to move either one for a relief pitcher, and I happen to agree with that assessment. As much as I wanted relief help, I think you can't be foolish, and it was reported that the Pirates wanted both Lux and May, let alone Ruiz plus one of those guys. The Pirates are going to continue to tread water at best for a couple more years, and they will end up moving Vazquez at some point for a worse offer than what they could've received from the Dodgers this year. |
I dunno. The exact description I seem to recall for Konerko the most was in fact "can't miss". What made that trade so infuriating was that the team wasn't any good to begin with. What difference did it make if they had a closer or not (and as it turned out it made none). The factors today are quite different, though. They ARE just a piece away. They are really DAMN good. I think this is when you do make that kind of a trade. |
It was made on July 3rd. After July 2, the team had a 42-42 record and was 11.5 games behind first. They could have traded for any closer in the history of the game and he wasn’t going to help them overcome that gap.
Not sure where the team was in the wild card race but who cares? The team wasn’t even close to looking like a playoff team.
I DO remember Konerko really struggling but it was still obviously way too early to give up on him. I remember him being a pretty big deal but can’t recall exactly how big of a deal he was. I think I kind of had a puzzled, skeptical and surprised reaction to the trade. |
I mentioned Konerko's relatively underwhelming career WAR earlier, considering how long he played and considering how many HR's he hit. Here's something kind of eye-opening: the LA Dodgers' all-time HR leader, Eric Karros, put up a grand total of 10.4 WAR in a 14-year career! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve007
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13221
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I think I do remember people expecting him to be a guy that could hit around 25-35 home runs and hit around .270. |
I’m sure I read this in a magazine somewhere now that I think about it lol. Has to be one of those magazines that was talking about the upcoming season. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve007
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 13221
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChickenStu wrote: |
I mentioned Konerko's relatively underwhelming career WAR earlier, considering how long he played and considering how many HR's he hit. Here's something kind of eye-opening: the LA Dodgers' all-time HR leader, Eric Karros, put up a grand total of 10.4 WAR in a 14-year career! |
I’m actually not that surprised after seeing the numbers for Konerko. Karros killed a lot of big opportunities by striking out a lot and hitting into a lot of double plays. I had mixed feelings about seeing him up with runners on. Except in 1995 and 1999 (his best years by far).
Looking back on it, maybe Mondesi should have been hitting cleanup instead. Or Mike Piazza. The lineup was almost always Piazza-Karros-Mondesi as the number 3, 4 and 5 hitters if I remember correctly. Karros led the league in hitting into double plays in 1996 with 27. Mondesi hit into 6 double plays that year. The difference was never that wide in other years though and Karros cut down on that number dramatically in the next couple of years. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16137
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ChickenStu wrote: | Some interesting info from Dave Roberts after the game. He said that neither Rich Hill nor Ross Stripling will have enough time before the end of the regular season to build back up to be a starting pitcher. So, we can count out Hill as a potential Game 4 starter in the postseason. That would seem to leave Maeda (yuck), May, Urias, or Gonsolin. I'm pretty sure they will use Maeda as a situational righty to get a right-handed hitter or two out in the postseason out of the 'pen. So that leaves the three kids. I'm guessing they all make the postseason roster, but you never know. So much uncertainty right now, though all 3 of those kids have great stuff and could be the key to our entire postseason, for all we know.
And maybe Rich Hill gets some big outs out of the bullpen, too. |
There's going to be some pretty tough cuts to get May and Gonsolin onto the postseason roster. I'm going to assume we go with 13 position players and 12 pitchers.
Locks (Position Players):
1) Russell Martin
2) Will Smith
3) Max Muncy
4) Corey Seager
5) Justin Turner
6) Cody Bellinger
7) Joc Pederson
8) AJ Pollock
9) David Freese
10) Alex Verdugo
(Position Players) 3 of the following:
Matt Beaty
Enrique Hernandez
Chris Taylor
Jedd Gyorko
Kristopher Negron
Tyler White
Edwin Rios
Gavin Lux
Locks (Pitchers)
1) Pedro Baez
2) Walker Buehler
3) Kenley Jansen
5) Joe Kelley
6) Clayton Kershaw
7) Kenta Maeda
8) Hyun-Jin Ryu
9) Julio Urias
(Pitchers) 3 from the following:
Yimi Garcia
Caleb Ferguson
Tony Gonsolin
Rich Hill
Adam Kolarek
Dustin May
Casey Sadler
Ross Stripling
Scott Alexander
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:29 pm; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
