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ShowtimeReturns
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Joined: 21 Oct 2017
Posts: 1065

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:29 pm Post subject:

bluehill wrote:

Will be interesting to see how long they can keep it up. Can't picture LBJ playing a full season at that pace for those minutes.

Luke has to get better at his rotations Keeping guys in too long may bring on a lot of injuries Just saying The Warriors have it down to a science.

ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:45 pm Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Quote:

Adam Fromal
@fromal09
Fastest-paced games of LeBron James' career:

1. 10/18/18 vs. POR: 113.5 via (link: http://NBA.com) NBA.com
2. 3/13/18 vs. PHO: 113.1 via B-R
3. 1/6/17 vs. BRK: 109.3 via B-R

https://twitter.com/fromal09/status/1053161060012843008

Interesting to note too, the other two games were likely ones that had pace dictated by the opposing team.

This time, it’s doing the pushing.

durden-tyler
Star Player

Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 1266

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:31 am Post subject:

112.0 We're first ! Wooohooo !!!

LakerLogic
Franchise Player

Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 17886

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:33 am Post subject:

durden-tyler wrote:

112.0
We're first !
Wooohooo !!!

And our legs are shot.

Baron Von Humongous
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Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32979

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:45 am Post subject:

durden-tyler wrote:

112.0
We're first !
Wooohooo !!!

That game felt so much slower than the Portland game, but I guess the lack of transition dunks skewed my perception.
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Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:19 pm Post subject:

The Lakers remain the fastest team in the league at a blistering 108.72 possessions per game, and that was after playing the Spurs, the slowest team in the league. _________________ Under New Management

Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:28 pm Post subject:

The transition game continues to produce a bunch of points:

Quote:

Jacob Rude
@JacobRude
Last season, the Warriors led the league in fast break points with 19.3 per game. The Lakers are averaging 32.3.

The Pelicans led the league last season in points in the paint with 52.4. The Lakers are averaging 71.3

26.7% of the Lakers offense comes in transition so far, which is highest in the league, and they produce 1.14 PPP on the break, good for 10th in the NBA. Last season the Lakers led the league in transition frequency at almost 20% of their possessions and a 1.14 PPP would have been the fourth most efficient transition offense in the league (last season the Lakers produced 1.06 PPP in transition, good for 22nd in the NBA).

The increase in transition frequency and efficiency is the driver behind their improvement to a top-10 offense this season.
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defense
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 39612

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:41 am Post subject:

I think somewhere along the line someone thought having the fastest pace meant winning It does not. So far it's equaled bad defense, losing, and L.A. fitness quality basketball

Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:05 am Post subject:

defense wrote:

I think somewhere along the line someone thought having the fastest pace meant winning

It does not. So far it's equaled bad defense, losing, and L.A. fitness quality basketball

Sure. I'm okay with a fast pace as a stylistic choice. Magic still dreams of Showtime, and so do a lot of fans. But the idea that pace correlates to winning, or even to ORtg, is belied by the stats. As is also true with small ball lineups, I think a lot of teams have learned the wrong lessons from the Golden State Warriors.

defense
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Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:30 am Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

defense wrote:

I think somewhere along the line someone thought having the fastest pace meant winning

It does not. So far it's equaled bad defense, losing, and L.A. fitness quality basketball

I agree

epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:36 am Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

The transition game continues to produce a bunch of points:

Quote:

Since our half court offense seems like a mess, the transition game is what is keeping us in games. Yet I hear some people want to get rid of the faster pace because they think our half court game will magically become decent?

Would having less tired guys run our half court offense produce more efficiency? That's hard hard one to validate for or against.

Bard207
Star Player

Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:51 am Post subject:

epak wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

The transition game continues to produce a bunch of points:

Quote:

If they keep the offense at a high tempo and are struggling to stay in the playoff race in February, should they try to play even faster or admit that they will have to rethink things?

epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:53 am Post subject:

Bard207 wrote:

epak wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

The transition game continues to produce a bunch of points:

Quote:

If they keep the offense at a high tempo and are struggling to stay in the playoff race in February, should they try to play even faster or admit that they will have to rethink things?

I dont know. What the are the variables that are leading to them not being in the playoff hunt in February?

Re: should they re-think things. As in life, everything should be reviewed, analyzed, evaluated to come up with better plans if possible. Even when things are going well. Hope that answers your question.

Baron Von Humongous
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Joined: 02 Jul 2015
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:10 am Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

defense wrote:

I think somewhere along the line someone thought having the fastest pace meant winning

It does not. So far it's equaled bad defense, losing, and L.A. fitness quality basketball

It's a tactical choice as well as an aesthetic one. Offensive efficiency is points per possession, and the shots that return the most value are and have forever been at the rim, free throws, and 3s with uncontested layups and corner 3s being even more potent shots. The Lakers have made a tactical choice to maximize offensive efficiency through shots at the rim, particularly uncontested layups/dunks in transition. It seems to be working both in improving the team's scoring efficiency and in showing flashes of being aesthetically pleasing, though I know it's early and it may be difficult to parse out Lebron's impact from the transition offense's impact.

So my questions are, if not emphasizing pace and transition scoring volume on efficiency, what do you think this Lakers team should be doing instead to improve their offensive efficiency and/or increase their chances of winning?

And what wrong lessons have teams learned from the Warriors? What are the right lessons they should've learned?
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Bard207
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:16 am Post subject:

epak wrote:

Bard207 wrote:

epak wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

The transition game continues to produce a bunch of points:

Quote:

If they keep the offense at a high tempo and are struggling to stay in the playoff race in February, should they try to play even faster or admit that they will have to rethink things?

Same issues that are currently being discussed on LG

* Poor three point shooting

* Poor defense

* Possibly being too congenial in regards to the KCP (Rich Paul & LeBron) situation

* Some ball stoppers on offense

* Etc

If the FO had totally committed to playing uptempo and wasn't interested in three point shooting, they would have drafted some greyhound types rather than Wagner and Mykhailiuk.

Maybe this uptempo offense is just a temporary thing while they transition the roster over the next few years. Several of the young players still are working on establishing themselves as consistent volume three point shooters, so playing uptempo was chosen while they either improve their three point shooting or are rotated out via trades for those that can.

If the long term plan is to sign a max player (late 20's) and bring in some veterans on minimum salaries to support LeBron and the newly signed max player, is the team going to continue with an uptempo philosophy with LeBron firmly in his mid 30's?

kb24GOAT
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Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 224

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:16 am Post subject:

hopefully the game will start to "slow down" (figuratively, not literally) for these guys.

epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:24 am Post subject:

Bard207 wrote:

epak wrote:

Bard207 wrote:

epak wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

The transition game continues to produce a bunch of points:

Quote:

If they keep the offense at a high tempo and are struggling to stay in the playoff race in February, should they try to play even faster or admit that they will have to rethink things?

Also note that the first 3 games had wonky lineups. That Kuzma at center lineup just was not working. And we didn't have 2 of our starters in game 3. To me, it's hard to nail anything down using the first 3 games (although that's all we can go by at this point). I don't think the rest of the season will be anything like the first 3 games.

1. I don't think they'll ever give up fast break points. No one should.
2. Re: pace in general, once the half court offense syncs up, I would think their pace organically lessens as they spend more time running their offense.

Baron Von Humongous
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Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32979

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:29 am Post subject:

Apropos of Aeneas Hunter's discussion of the Warriors, there have been a few articles published in the last couple days about how the league is getting faster and more 3pt happy while the KD era Warriors haven't kept pace and are morphing into more of a midrange shooting team.

Ethan Strauss at The Athletic outlines how the Warriors have diverged with KD from the league of copycats they've inspired (link (sub req)):

Quote:

This season, many franchises aren’t just looking like the old Warriors; they appear to be radical disciples, hell-bent on taking certain lessons to the logical extreme. The average team is playing faster than the Warriors ever did. So far this season, the average team is shooting more 3-pointers than the old Warriors ever hoisted. As for the current Warriors? They’re 22nd in 3-point attempts so far this season and 16th in pace. After Game 3 of the season, our Anthony Slater noted how few Warriors were draining 3-pointers other than Curry. Podcaster extraordinaire Nate Duncan added to the observation, noting the paucity of 3-point attempts team-wide and concluding that it “makes the math harder for GSW to be a great offense with the way league is going.”

Bryan Mears looks at the teams that are emphasizing "Moreyball" early this season and finds the Spurs (not surprising) and Warriors diverging most from that strategy while several teams have improved their Moreyball "scores" by increasing volume and efficiency of shots at the rim and/or from deep. The Lakers are doing quite well as a "modern" offense because they are maximizing transition points, shots at the rim, and have even upped their frequency of 3s through the first three games (link):

Quote:

So far this season, the teams with the highest Moreyball Ratings are the Lakers (79.5), Rockets (74.1), Bucks (72.1), Hawks (64.3) and Wizards (60.5).

LeBron and Co. are 0-3 to start the season, and the roster isn’t exactly ideal for Moreyball (I talked about that more here), but it’s encouraging to see Luke Walton employ a modern scheme. The Lakers are first in the league in shots at the rim and first in transition opportunities. The shooting has been suspect — the Lakers have hit just 29.3% of their 3s this year — but the foundation is encouraging, and it’s likely they’ll see positive regression soon.

The "Moreyball Ratings" are merely descriptive and the author isn't attempting to directly link them to their efficacy, but it's something to monitor how well Moreyball correlates to Ortg as the season progresses.
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The Juggernaut
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:37 am Post subject:

If Luke and his staff actually had any decent X and Os knowledge we wouldn't be in our 3rd straight season of terrible half court offense and wouldn't need to run at lightning pace. I like a high pace but not at the sacrifice of good half court sets and 3 point shooting. We are dominating fast break points and points in the paint yet we are still losing because of 3 point shooting and rebounding. Magic is at fault for not getting us enough size/rebounding and Luke is at fault for not being able to draw up better 3 point looks and putting guys in more efficient scoring positions. An example is Michael Beasley who is actually a very efficient scorer that could help us out in many ways but Luke just isn't even trying to work him in.

Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:45 am Post subject:

The Juggernaut wrote:

If Luke and his staff actually had any decent X and Os knowledge we wouldn't be in our 3rd straight season of terrible half court offense and wouldn't need to run at lightning pace. I like a high pace but not at the sacrifice of good half court sets and 3 point shooting. We are dominating fast break points and points in the paint yet we are still losing because of 3 point shooting and rebounding.

Magic is at fault for not getting us enough size/rebounding and Luke is at fault for not being able to draw up better 3 point looks and putting guys in more efficient scoring positions. An example is Michael Beasley who is actually a very efficient scorer that could help us out in many ways but Luke just isn't even trying to work him in.

Luke got Stephenson to shoot two corner 3s in the same game! That's pretty impressive offensive discipline from Lance.

I think he is hindered more than you note by roster construction with three infrequent/reluctant three point shooters getting big minutes, no viable backup center, and KCP going in the (drunk) tank.
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Bard207
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Posts: 7713

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:55 am Post subject:

epak wrote:

Bard207 wrote:

epak wrote:

Bard207 wrote:

epak wrote:

If they keep the offense at a high tempo and are struggling to stay in the playoff race in February, should they try to play even faster or admit that they will have to rethink things?

Some were skeptical that Zubac would make the jump to being the #2 center on a team thinking about being in the playoffs. Beasley & Kuzma at center were attempts to patch the situation over, but neither is what I consider a JYD (Junk Yard Dog) type.

Loose threads such as the backup center issue suggest that the roster should be considered as quite unfinished rather than close to a finished product.

Magic was young in the Showtime era decades ago while LeBron is currently on the other end of the age spectrum. Sprinting up the court for shots at the rim is great provided everybody will still have enough legs left to protect LeBron on defense.

The Juggernaut
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:23 pm Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

The Juggernaut wrote:

It's true this years roster construction isn't balanced and is lacking volume 3 point shooters and bigs/rebounding but Luke's ineptitude with X&Os goes all the way back to his 1st season as HC. He's also not utilizing Beasley who could help us offensively in the half court.

Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:36 pm Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

First question: If you want to be more efficient offensively, you need shooters and a half court offensive system that works. Getting lay ups in transition is great, but when you don't get the lay up, what happens next? Getting corner 3s is great, but when you can't make them, what happens next? Last year we were 2nd in the league in Pace and 23rd in ORtg. Our ORtg is better so far this year, but we added Lebron Freaking James to the lineup. We're 2nd in Pace again, but 11th in ORtg. If you look at the overall league numbers for last year (or any year), you'll see that Pace alone does not correlate with ORtg.

Second question: The wrong lesson is that small ball lineups are unstoppable and that high Pace is the answer to all ills. It's not just the Lakers who are doing this. The correct lesson is that you can have great success if you have a couple reliable shooters and put them in the position to succeed. You can build a team outside-in, not just inside-out.

activeverb
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:20 pm Post subject:

^ Before the Warriors, high pace teams had never been particularly successful in the playoffs. However, the Warriors success is less about pace, than great 3-point shooting, defense and having a huge amount of talent. The notion that pace alone is the secret sauce makes me roll my eyes.

epak
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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:41 pm Post subject:

activeverb wrote:

^
Before the Warriors, high pace teams had never been particularly successful in the playoffs.

However, the Warriors success is less about pace, than great 3-point shooting, defense and having a huge amount of talent.

The notion that pace alone is the secret sauce makes me roll my eyes.

Or it's about all 4?
Pace for higher scoring efficiency, great 3 point shooting for scoring efficiency, great defense, and talent?

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