Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29279 Location: La La Land
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:07 am Post subject: Netflix's True Crime Documentary: Making a Murderer (Warning: Spoilers Inside)
Addicting as hell. First episode is free on youtube. . Gotta get Netflix to watch the rest. It's completely worth it.
spoiler wrote:
I think there is a healthy chance Steven Avery was framed by the Manitowac County Sheriff's office.
If I was on that jury for the Halbach murder, I would've voted not guilty.
Don't think any amount of jury deliberation would change my mind. If I hang the jury, so be it. There's plenty of reasonable doubt.
_________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:49 am Post subject: Re: Netflix's True Crime Documentary: Making a Murderer (Warning: Spoilers Inside)
kikanga wrote:
Addicting as hell. First episode is free on youtube. . Gotta get Netflix to watch the rest. It's completely worth it.
I think there is a healthy chance Steven Avery was framed by the Manitowac County Sheriff's office.
If I was on that jury for the Halbach murder, I would've voted not guilty.
Don't think any amount of jury deliberation would change my mind. If I hang the jury, so be it. There's plenty of reasonable doubt.
SPOILER
Just finished the series and I agree with you. Plenty of reasonable doubt but there are moments where I felt like this dude Avery is a psycho and that he definitely did it. Regardless if I'm on that jury I rule not guilty. Hopefully some lawyers on LG can chime in.
The phrase "beyond a reasonable doubt" apparently means nothing. Once you're accused of something and the press runs with it, you pretty much have to prove you're innocent. There is no innocent until proven guilty for people who have no power and no money. It's sickening. It's no wonder the United States leads the world in the number of people put behind bars. The whole system is (bleep)ed. Lawyers like Dean Strang and Jerome Buting give me some hope, but this (bleep) is seriously (bleep)ed up.
11 mins into Ep 1 of #MakingAMurderer. Prolly should watch this sober as I already want him dead for setting cat on fire. Or on fire.
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Watching #MakingAMurderer reminding u to support @Innocence Project, my #1 charity - as well as Mitch Hedberg's, to drop a name.
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Starting episode 6. How this can more (bleep) up I don't know but I aint sleeping til its done. In-(bleep)-credible. #MakingAMurderer
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Just finished @MakingAMurderer on Netflix, I need a nap, a drink. a punching bag, a gun and a good lawyer. Bravo.
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 6:49 pm Post subject:
When, in order to get promoted, all that matters is a conviction (not necessarily a just conviction) or an arrest (not necessarily a just arrest), this is the result. I'm sure its only worse in small towns where there is an incredible conflict of interest at every turn.
Beyond that, its nothing new that the "presumption of innocence" is completely ignored. Rather, there is a presumption among most that if you are on trial for a crime, you probably did something wrong, and, conversely, if you are suing someone, you are probably just greedy and lazy. It's ironic that in criminal versus civil cases, jurors unintentionally reverse that standards of proof. In a civil case, for an individual Plaintiff to win, they most often have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. In a criminal case, the prosecution usually only has to get the jury to believe something is more likely than not.
If the reasonable doubt standard was enforced in this case, there is no possible way the prosecution would have obtained a conviction in either case.
*In the Steven's case, how does one explain the blood in the car? The multiple burning sites (which would completely mess up the timeline)? The lack of motive (especially when one considers this guy was in jail for 18 years and would have little incentive to go back). The lack of a murder weapon (no one every showed the gun that was used, which could, and should, easily be traced and connected to the bullet)? What about the phone records showing that Steve was on the phone twice during the "murder period?" The lack of blood splatter in the garage? This makes no mention of the reasonable doubt re: planting of evidence, disregarding the conflict of interest and the PD's failure to pursue other leads.
By the way, IMO, the defense in Steven's case made a huge mistake by not putting Branden on the stand. If they were going with the "frame" defense, Branden's "confession" video hits the point home. As we saw, they had nothing to lose by doing it anyway.
*In Branden's case, the fact that there was no blood in the bedroom, despite allegedly slashing her throat, is reasonable doubt enough. On top of that, there was none of his own DNA. The excuse that he "cleaned it up" in the 5 days that went by is laughable... so this dumbass kid cleaned it up, but the adult, Steven, didn't all the while watching this kid do it for 5 days? Then there is the police collusion with his first attorney (which his defense counsel completely ignored and didn't get into during the trial). Unless there is more evidence they put on that we didn't see, it also seems that Branden's defense team completely let him down by failing to put the mom on the stand and getting the phone calls between them into evidence, not to mention the last hour of that confession tape. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)? And goodness, that Branden kid sure is stupid, but at least he's aware of it. If there is a conspiracy here (which I don't doubt), I think this goes beyond just the Manitowoc County Sheriffs Dept. There's a petition to pardon Avery on change.org and it's up to 150,000+ signitures so far. 200,000 is the goal.
What is maddening is that in the Avery case the prosecution can argue that Halbach was killed in the garage and then go and argue in the Brendan case that she was killed in the bedroom.
Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 1454 Location: East Los Angeles, CA
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:01 am Post subject:
the thing that blew my mind the most is that Brendan is in prison based on his confession and his confession only when there is not a single shred of evidence to back up ANYTHING in it. Why does his confession hold more weight than his denial?
Considering Kratz was a sexual deviant it's not hard to see where the fabricated story of Teresa Halbach being tied up and raped was envisioned. Probably one of Kratz' fantasies.
the thing that blew my mind the most is that Brendan is in prison based on his confession and his confession only when there is not a single shred of evidence to back up ANYTHING in it. Why does his confession hold more weight than his denial?
A few of his multiple hour interviews are available on youtube in their entirety. They can be quite interesting to watch.
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:57 pm Post subject:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
Did the documentary present all of the evidence?
There is some debate about that, but from what Ive seen and reviewed, it was fair to both sides... which only shows how incredible the story is. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29279 Location: La La Land
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:07 pm Post subject:
Splash1 wrote:
The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)?
The same guy it always is. The creepy ex boyfriend with stalker tendencies who was sweating on the stand. Ryan Hillegas.
He hacked into her voicemail after her murder!
He organized the search party that found the car on Avery's property!
And then was overly defensive when someone asked if it was him who found the vehicle personally.
I also think Mike Halbach (Theresa's brother) might know something he isn't saying. LINK _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 33474 Location: Long Beach, California
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:10 pm Post subject:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
dont_be_a_wuss wrote:
Did the documentary present all of the evidence?
There is some debate about that, but from what Ive seen and reviewed, it was fair to both sides... which only shows how incredible the story is.
Really? What did they leave out?
I think it was stuff about phone logs and DNA evidence. When you consider the trial lasted 6 weeks and was condensed into a 2-3 hour block (including commentary), there had to be a whole lot left out. So yes, there was a lot left out from both sides, but my understanding is that it was the less significant stuff. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service
The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)?
The same guy it always is. The creepy ex boyfriend with stalker tendencies who was sweating on the stand. Ryan Hillegas.
He hacked into her voicemail after her murder!
He organized the search party that found the car on Avery's property!
And then was overly defensive when someone asked if it was him who found the vehicle personally.
I also think Mike Halbach (Theresa's brother) might know something he isn't saying. LINK
Looking at the phone records that were held out of the film, it looks possible that Steven could have been a stalker of hers. He called her multiple times that day from blocked numbers, and also was reported to call auto trader using a different name and asking for her because she had requested not to go to his property again after he creeped her out, answering the door in a towel.
Thanks I looked a little further and found the email he sent.
Quote:
1. Avery’s past incident with a cat was not “goofing around”. He soaked his cat in gasoline or oil, and put it on a fire to watch it suffer.
2. Avery targeted Teresa. On Oct 31 (8:12 am) he called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send “that same girl who was here last time.” On Oct 10, Teresa had been to the Avery property when Steve answered the door just wearing a towel. She said she would not go back because she was scared of him (obviously). Avery used a fake name and fake # (his sister’s) giving those to the AutoTrader receptionist, to trick Teresa into coming.
3. Teresa’s phone, camera and PDA were found 20 ft from Avery’s door, burned in his barrel. Why did the documentary not tell the viewers the contents of her purse were in his burn barrel, just north of the front door of his trailer?
Also Read: 'Making a Murderer' Pardon Petition Draws Signers From 144 Countries
4. While in prison, Avery told another inmate of his intent to build a “torture chamber” so he could rape, torture and kill young women when he was released. He even drew a diagram. Another inmate was told by Avery that the way to get rid of a body is to “burn it”…heat destroys DNA.
5. The victim’s bones in the firepit were “intertwined” with the steel belts, left over from the car tires Avery threw on the fire to burn, as described by Dassey. That WAS where her bones were burned! Suggesting that some human bones found elsewhere (never identified as Teresa’s) were from this murder was NEVER established.
6. Also found in the fire pit was Teresa’s tooth (ID’d through dental records), a rivet from the “Daisy Fuentes” jeans she was wearing that day, and the tools used by Avery to chop up her bones during the fire.
Also Read: 'Making a Murderer' Filmmakers Fire Back at Prosecutor: 'He's Not Entitled to His Own Facts'
7. Phone records show 3 calls from Avery to Teresa’s cell phone on Oct 31. One at 2:24, and one at 2:35–both calls Avery uses the *67 feature so Teresa doesn’t know it him…both placed before she arrives. Then one last call at 4:35 pm, without the *67 feature. Avery first believes he can simply say she never showed up (his original defense), so tries to establish the alibi call after she’s already been there, hence the 4:35 call. She will never answer of course, so he doesn’t need the *67 feature for that last call.
8. Avery’s DNA (not blood) was on the victim’s hood latch (under her hood in her hidden SUV). The SUV was at the crime lab since 11/5…how did his DNA get under the hood if Avery never touched her car? Do the cops have a vial of Avery’s sweat to “plant” under the hood?
9. Ballistics said the bullet found in the garage was fired by Avery’s rifle, which was in a police evidence locker since 11/6…if the cops planted the bullet, how did they get one fired from HIS gun? This rifle, hanging over Aver’s bed, is the source of the bullet found in the garage, with Teresa’s DNA on it. The bullet had to be fired BEFORE 11/5—did the cops borrow his gun, fire a bullet, recover the bullet before planting the SUV, then hang on to the bullet for 4 months in case they need to plant it 4 months later???
The documentary scares the crap out of me, and I'm an attorney.
The prosecutorial and law enforcement misconduct in the first rape conviction is beyond scary.
In the defense's motion to bar any of the sheriff's department people from testifying in the murder trial, the head sheriff still doesn't believe that Avery was exonerated for the rape even though the DNA evidence was unequivocally the basis for his exoneration.
I still have a hard time believing that he slashed/shot the women, but his trailer was spot clean. Neither he or his nephew had the smarts to cover this crime up.
I'm really at a loss of words. Did he do it? Not sure. But did they prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? Absolutely not. (I thought his defense team for the murder trial was exceptional). _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)?
The same guy it always is. The creepy ex boyfriend with stalker tendencies who was sweating on the stand. Ryan Hillegas.
He hacked into her voicemail after her murder!
He organized the search party that found the car on Avery's property!
And then was overly defensive when someone asked if it was him who found the vehicle personally.
I also think Mike Halbach (Theresa's brother) might know something he isn't saying. LINK
There's way more evidence to link Steven Avery than what you have on Hillegas.
This was a tough one. It's impossible to know, based on the evidence in the film, if Steven did it or not. There are some huge red flags that suggest Avery might have done it. But then, where was the physical evidence? I mean, they dug up the concrete to test it for DNA and couldn't find any even.
But, there is no doubt in my mind he did not receive a very fair trial. And the conduct of the police was downright frightening.
Also, Ken Kratz was the DA and he just seemed like a slimeball. No surprise he was caught sexting a female victim of violence and if you read some of his texts, they're really just creepy.
As someone pointed out, the DA's theory in Steven's case was he killed her in the garage; in his nephew's case, he argued she was killed in the bedroom.
HUH? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
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