Botham Jean Shooting
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:26 pm    Post subject:

Well she copped to intending to kill...which was GREAT!! That made the jury's job a whole lot easier. Because when they went back to deliberate, the only thing they really had to decide was if they bought her 'Oops Wrong Apartment' story. It was a load of crap from day 1.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:34 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Would you have put her on the stand?

Not sure if her statement about how she intended to kill him b/c her police training told her to shoot to kill helped her honestly. Could see the jury using that to show she had intended to kill him.


This came up on the Texas Lawyers group on Facebook. Prior to the verdict, multiple criminal lawyers said that they would have done it. It would be hard to prove mistake of fact without her testimony. They also said that they would always put their clients on the stand unless there was a good reason not to do so. Of course, in many criminal cases, there are abundant reasons why you would never want your client on the stand.

That sounds reasonable to me. The fact that the defense was pushing a Texas Ranger as an expert witness tells me that they wanted to avoid it and let the Ranger testify that she acted reasonably. When the trial court excluded the expert, they put their client on the stand. (The Texas Rangers are the state police, by the way. The witness was not a baseball player.)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:37 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Would you have put her on the stand?

Not sure if her statement about how she intended to kill him b/c her police training told her to shoot to kill helped her honestly. Could see the jury using that to show she had intended to kill him.


This came up on the Texas Lawyers group on Facebook. Prior to the verdict, multiple criminal lawyers said that they would have done it. It would be hard to prove mistake of fact without her testimony. They also said that they would always put their clients on the stand unless there was a good reason not to do so. Of course, in many criminal cases, there are abundant reasons why you would never want your client on the stand.

That sounds reasonable to me. The fact that the defense was pushing a Texas Ranger as an expert witness tells me that they wanted to avoid it and let the Ranger testify that she acted reasonably. When the trial court excluded the expert, they put their client on the stand. (The Texas Rangers are the state police, by the way. The witness was not a baseball player.)


Yeah. I think it was right to exclude the expert witness b/c deciding whether her actions were reasonable is something that is solely in the province of the jury.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:37 pm    Post subject:

By the way, there is a poll in the Texas Lawyers group about the length of the sentence. The most popular choice is 15-20 years. Take that for whatever it’s worth. I don’t think most of expected a murder conviction.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:38 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
Well she copped to intending to kill...which was GREAT!! That made the jury's job a whole lot easier. Because when they went back to deliberate, the only thing they really had to decide was if they bought her 'Oops Wrong Apartment' story. It was a load of crap from day 1.


Yup. When I heard that I thought it was a mistake on her defense team to allow her to say that. I almost guarantee that reverberated with the jury as they deliberated.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:42 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Yeah. I think it was right to exclude the expert witness b/c deciding whether her actions were reasonable is something that is solely in the province of the jury.


Yep. He would have been sort of a junk expert anyway. It’s not like there are established protocols for entering the wrong apartment while off duty. Well, at least I hope not.
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:05 pm    Post subject:

10 years.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject:

Wow.
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:20 pm    Post subject:

I'm very disappointed. But at the same time...2-3 years ago, these cops wouldn't even be indicted. But just in the last few years in the state of Texas, they've had 2 high profile convictions for the murders of Botham Jean and 15 year old Jordan Edwards. The cop who murdered Jordan Edwards got 15 years.

But 10 years...wow.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:25 pm    Post subject:

This tells me that the jury believed at least some of her story.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:40 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
This tells me that the jury believed at least some of her story.


Yeah. They came back with the guilty verdict so fast when most of the pundits believed they would be out 3 days minimum. I figured they dismissed her account out of hand. I think you right...they bought some of it. At the same time, cops seem to be graded on a whole other curve than the rest of society. Juries really struggle to convict cops and punish them accordingly. And that's assuming it even gets in front of a jury.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:56 pm    Post subject:

Amber Guyger sentenced to 10 years for murdering neighbor Botham Jean

LINK

Quote:
The jury was allowed to consider whether Jean's death was the result of "sudden passion," which meant Guyger acted in the heat of the moment. It carried a lesser sentence of two to 20 years behind bars.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:01 pm    Post subject:

10 years for murder. God bless America.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:19 pm    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
10 years for murder. God bless America.

That's what stuck me. Maybe the use of murder is misleading.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:29 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Amber Guyger sentenced to 10 years for murdering neighbor Botham Jean

LINK

Quote:
The jury was allowed to consider whether Jean's death was the result of "sudden passion," which meant Guyger acted in the heat of the moment. It carried a lesser sentence of two to 20 years behind bars.


Why does this sound like a fraternal twin to 'Crime of Passion?' My LG lawyers, should this have been allowed to be considered in this case??

Quote:
Sudden passion is not a defense to murder and cannot be raised until a jury has found a defendant guilty of murder in the guilt/innocence phase of the trial. After the guilt/ innocence phase of a trial, the jury determines a defendant’s punishment in the punishment phase of the trial.


https://www.versustexas.com/criminal/sudden-passion-murder-cases-texas/

Quote:
Sudden Passion and Murder in Texas

A wife comes home early one day and discovers her husband engaged in sexual activity with another woman. Enraged, the woman goes to her closet, retrieves a gun, and kills his lover. At her murder trial, the wife’s attorney asks the jury to consider whether the wife acted in “sudden passion” when she committed the murder. What is sudden passion and how would it affect the wife’s sentence after being convicted of murder?

What is “Sudden Passion”?

Sudden passion is a mitigating finding that can raised by a murder defendant during the punishment phase of the trial. It allows jurors to consider whether the defendant had been provoked to such a level of fear, rage or resentment that any reasonable person in a similar situation “would have been capable of cool reflection.” If jurors find that a defendant acted in sudden passion, the maximum punishment for murder is reduced from life in prison to 20 years.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:43 pm    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
10 years for murder. God bless America.


That Dallas cop who killed a teenager in 1973 while interrogating him via Russian roulette in his squad car (over an $8 theft from a vending machine) got 15 years. Trying to weight this case against that one given the times in which each happened.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:00 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Amber Guyger sentenced to 10 years for murdering neighbor Botham Jean

LINK

Quote:
The jury was allowed to consider whether Jean's death was the result of "sudden passion," which meant Guyger acted in the heat of the moment. It carried a lesser sentence of two to 20 years behind bars.


Why does this sound like a fraternal twin to 'Crime of Passion?' My LG lawyers, should this have been allowed to be considered in this case??

Quote:
Sudden passion is not a defense to murder and cannot be raised until a jury has found a defendant guilty of murder in the guilt/innocence phase of the trial. After the guilt/ innocence phase of a trial, the jury determines a defendant’s punishment in the punishment phase of the trial.


https://www.versustexas.com/criminal/sudden-passion-murder-cases-texas/

Quote:
Sudden Passion and Murder in Texas

A wife comes home early one day and discovers her husband engaged in sexual activity with another woman. Enraged, the woman goes to her closet, retrieves a gun, and kills his lover. At her murder trial, the wife’s attorney asks the jury to consider whether the wife acted in “sudden passion” when she committed the murder. What is sudden passion and how would it affect the wife’s sentence after being convicted of murder?

What is “Sudden Passion”?

Sudden passion is a mitigating finding that can raised by a murder defendant during the punishment phase of the trial. It allows jurors to consider whether the defendant had been provoked to such a level of fear, rage or resentment that any reasonable person in a similar situation “would have been capable of cool reflection.” If jurors find that a defendant acted in sudden passion, the maximum punishment for murder is reduced from life in prison to 20 years.

Seems to me the case sited is controlled anger. She didn't kill her husband just his lover. If so enraged why didn't she kill both? She was thinking and in control of her senses.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:37 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
My LG lawyers, should this have been allowed to be considered in this case??


Yes. Here is the statutory definition:

Quote:
"Sudden passion" means passion directly caused by and arising out of provocation by the individual killed or another acting with the person killed which passion arises at the time of the offense and is not solely the result of former provocation.
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:53 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
My LG lawyers, should this have been allowed to be considered in this case??


Yes. Here is the statutory definition:

Quote:
"Sudden passion" means passion directly caused by and arising out of provocation by the individual killed or another acting with the person killed which passion arises at the time of the offense and is not solely the result of former provocation.


But what was the provocation?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:55 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
My LG lawyers, should this have been allowed to be considered in this case??


Yes. Here is the statutory definition:

Quote:
"Sudden passion" means passion directly caused by and arising out of provocation by the individual killed or another acting with the person killed which passion arises at the time of the offense and is not solely the result of former provocation.

Wouldn't her not killing her husband have some leverage. Seems the prosecution would introduce she didn't kill her husband.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:56 pm    Post subject:

Botham’s brother. Wow.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:56 pm    Post subject:

pathetic... I bet she some how gets out of jail within 4 years too
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:27 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Botham’s brother. Wow.


Very classy of him to do that, but I could never have done that if it was my brother.

I still don't buy her crap.

You enter the wrong apartment and see a man eating ice cream with none of your stuff there.

I don't understand how that turns into her shooting him, it just isn't reasonable. Why not just leave?

I hope she at least has to serve the full 10 years which seems way too lenient to me.
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hoopschick29
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Botham’s brother. Wow.


That's a whole other conversation that I can't have in mixed company. Kitchen table talk as my grandma used to say.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:44 pm    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
hoopschick29 wrote:
My LG lawyers, should this have been allowed to be considered in this case??


Yes. Here is the statutory definition:

Quote:
"Sudden passion" means passion directly caused by and arising out of provocation by the individual killed or another acting with the person killed which passion arises at the time of the offense and is not solely the result of former provocation.


But what was the provocation?


In her version of the facts, he was charging her or whatever. I don’t remember exactly what she claimed. The standard for giving a jury instruction is whether there is some evidence to support it. Her testimony is enough. The court was wise to just give the instruction rather than running the risk that an appellate court would rule that not giving the instruction was error. I think that’s why she got the castle doctrine instruction at the guilt stage. It’s safer just to give the instruction, especially if you think it makes no difference.
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