Official General 2019 NBA Draft Talk Thread (Lakers Get 46th Pick/Talen Horton-Tucker, Sign Cacok, Norvell, Caroline)
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KeepItRealOrElse
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:12 pm    Post subject:

LakerMindLA wrote:
Would like to see the Lakers go after Louis King. High upside player that still hasn’t signed with a team.


I agree. mid-early 2nd rounder for me
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:35 pm    Post subject:

LakerMindLA wrote:
Would like to see the Lakers go after Louis King. High upside player that still hasn’t signed with a team.

This guy? Yes, worth a punt from these highlights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaVjqOxdejk

Also found some highlights of his against UCLA below. Did Moses Brown get signed by anyone? He seems worth taking a chance on too. Both guys could be developed in the G-league, we need some good role players coming through the second team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oRTiOLA6sg
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:40 pm    Post subject:

my final board


T1 Zion

T2
2 Morant
3 Barrett
4 Garland
5 Culver
6 Hunter

T3
7 Goga
8 KPJ
9 Hayes
10 Washington
11 Smailagic
12 Clarke
13 NAW

T4
14 White
15 Claxton
16 THT
17 Okeke
18 Reddish
19 Williams


T5
20 Thybulle
21 Bruno
22 Johnson
23 Herro
24 Samanic

T6
25 Bazley
26 Sekou
27 Edwards
28 Keldon
29 Roby
30 Ponds
31 Oni
32 Mathews
33 Little
34 King
35 Rui
36 Reaves
37 McDaniels
38 Konchar
39 Langford
40 Nowell
41 Gafford
42 Weatherspoon
43 Windler
44 Okpala
45 Bol Bol

T7
46 Iggy
47 Davis
48 Jeffries
49 Martin
50 Holman
51 Norvell

52 Morgan
53 Roach
54 Sirvydis
55 Waters
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:10 am    Post subject:

Wonder why no one has picked King up???
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:18 am    Post subject:

lakerfanaticPT wrote:
Wonder why no one has picked King up???


Pistons just picked him up.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:36 pm    Post subject:

I wish they would have bought the pick that got Bol, if he pans out, he could be top ten talent, while this guy will get dropped within 2 years!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:13 am    Post subject:

Remember how trash the 2013 draft was? I don't even know if former #1 pick Anthony Bennett even plays basketball anymore.

But that same draft just produced this year's DPOY and MVP.

You just never know.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:25 am    Post subject:

unleasHell wrote:
I wish they would have bought the pick that got Bol, if he pans out, he could be top ten talent, while this guy will get dropped within 2 years!


Weren't there rumors they were trying and he was picked right before THT?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:35 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Remember how trash the 2013 draft was? I don't even know if former #1 pick Anthony Bennett even plays basketball anymore.

But that same draft just produced this year's DPOY and MVP.

You just never know.

2013 draft’s top end actually competes kind of well with the years it’s sandwiched between, now

2013: Davis, Lillard, Beal, Green
2013: Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, McCollum
2014: Embiid, Jokic, LaVine, Randle
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:45 am    Post subject:

alleyoop wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Remember how trash the 2013 draft was? I don't even know if former #1 pick Anthony Bennett even plays basketball anymore.

But that same draft just produced this year's DPOY and MVP.

You just never know.

2013 draft’s top end actually competes kind of well with the years it’s sandwiched between, now

2013: Davis, Lillard, Beal, Green
2013: Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, McCollum
2014: Embiid, Jokic, LaVine, Randle

Good point!

Look at how all over the draft boards those players were selected, though. The NBA really has to find a way to be better at this.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:10 am    Post subject:

my guess is Holman is the most NBA ready from the haul we picked up followed by Norvell. Wagner set the bar pretty low last season of what a stretch 4 needs to do to get some minutes on this team.
for THT I really hope we put some dedicated effort into developing him. I'd like to see him first specialize as a on-ball defender followed by his jumpshot making him a 3 and D player.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:19 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Remember how trash the 2013 draft was? I don't even know if former #1 pick Anthony Bennett even plays basketball anymore.

But that same draft just produced this year's DPOY and MVP.

You just never know.


He's been shooting 44% from 3 in the G League.

I'd give him a chance to fill out the roster.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:50 pm    Post subject:

Barrett looked terrible as did Zion....

Knicks definitely getting the worst record next season and Zion ain't no savior for the pelicans.... just yet
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:03 am    Post subject:

This draft looks super deep with multiple all stars
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
alleyoop wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Remember how trash the 2013 draft was? I don't even know if former #1 pick Anthony Bennett even plays basketball anymore.

But that same draft just produced this year's DPOY and MVP.

You just never know.

2013 draft’s top end actually competes kind of well with the years it’s sandwiched between, now

2013: Davis, Lillard, Beal, Green
2013: Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, McCollum
2014: Embiid, Jokic, LaVine, Randle

Good point!

Look at how all over the draft boards those players were selected, though. The NBA really has to find a way to be better at this.



Should the research to improve drafting focus more on why there are so many misses at the top or to not let so many gems fall so far down the draft order?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject:

Bard207 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
alleyoop wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Remember how trash the 2013 draft was? I don't even know if former #1 pick Anthony Bennett even plays basketball anymore.

But that same draft just produced this year's DPOY and MVP.

You just never know.

2013 draft’s top end actually competes kind of well with the years it’s sandwiched between, now

2013: Davis, Lillard, Beal, Green
2013: Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, McCollum
2014: Embiid, Jokic, LaVine, Randle

Good point!

Look at how all over the draft boards those players were selected, though. The NBA really has to find a way to be better at this.



Should the research to improve drafting focus more on why there are so many misses at the top or to not let so many gems fall so far down the draft order?

Those issues kind of overlap, don't they?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject:

Bard207 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
alleyoop wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Remember how trash the 2013 draft was? I don't even know if former #1 pick Anthony Bennett even plays basketball anymore.

But that same draft just produced this year's DPOY and MVP.

You just never know.

2013 draft’s top end actually competes kind of well with the years it’s sandwiched between, now

2013: Davis, Lillard, Beal, Green
2013: Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, McCollum
2014: Embiid, Jokic, LaVine, Randle

Good point!

Look at how all over the draft boards those players were selected, though. The NBA really has to find a way to be better at this.



Should the research to improve drafting focus more on why there are so many misses at the top or to not let so many gems fall so far down the draft order?


Player Development, per team, is a heavily underrated aspect to determining the success of a draft pick.

Yes, the pick has to bring a baseline set of skills, intangibles, size, and athleticism combination to hang in the league.

But the team has to use those specific tools and find ways to optimize players into team success.

Phoenix can't do that.

The 76ers, can.

LAL, could do better still.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:47 am    Post subject:

I agree, player development is huge. But I would also add that teams should do a better job accounting for the mental makeup of the player as part of the growth expectation. If you’re looking at a player who is 19-21 years of age, most of their development will come from being driven and coachable.

That’s part of the reason I still expect Ingram to become a really good pro.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:52 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:

Player Development, per team, is a heavily underrated aspect to determining the success of a draft pick.

Yes, the pick has to bring a baseline set of skills, intangibles, size, and athleticism combination to hang in the league.

But the team has to use those specific tools and find ways to optimize players into team success.

Phoenix can't do that.

The 76ers, can.

LAL, could do better still.


Markelle Fultz, Jahlil Okafor & Michael Carter-Williams would like to have a word with you.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:12 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:

Player Development, per team, is a heavily underrated aspect to determining the success of a draft pick.

Yes, the pick has to bring a baseline set of skills, intangibles, size, and athleticism combination to hang in the league.

But the team has to use those specific tools and find ways to optimize players into team success.

Phoenix can't do that.

The 76ers, can.

LAL, could do better still.


Markelle Fultz, Jahlil Okafor & Michael Carter-Williams would like to have a word with you.


MCW is too far back.

Fultz's medical is unpredictable.

Okafor was basically the break before the 76ers started drafting well.

Ben Simmons is a given.

But some of these guys before they were traded:

G MP PTS TRB AST FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST WS WS/48 BPM VORP
2019 NBA 1 24 Ty Jerome (↳BOS ↳PHO) Virginia
2019 NBA 2 33 Carsen Edwards (↳BOS) Purdue
2019 NBA 2 34 Bruno Fernando (↳ATL) Maryland

2019 NBA 2 42 Admiral Schofield (↳WAS) Tennessee
2019 NBA 2 54 Marial Shayok Iowa State
Year Lg Rd Pk Player College G MP PTS TRB AST FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST WS WS/48 BPM VORP
2018 NBA 1 10 Mikal Bridges (↳PHO) Villanova 82 2417 684 264 173 .430 .335 .805 29.5 8.3 3.2 2.1 2.9 .058 -0.2 1.1
[b]2018 NBA 1 26 Landry Shamet Wichita State 79 1802 722 134 117 .431 .422 .806 22.8 9.1 1.7 1.5 3.6 .095 -1.0 0.5

2018 NBA 2 38 Khyri Thomas (↳DET) Creighton 26 195 61 20 8 .319 .286 .636 7.5 2.3 0.8 0.3 0.0 .005 -5.2 -0.2
2018 NBA 2 39 Isaac Bonga (↳LAL) 22 120 19 25 15 .152 .000 .600 5.5 0.9 1.1 0.7 -0.1 -0.059 -4.3 -0.1
[b]
2018 NBA 2 56 Ray Spalding (↳DAL) Louisville 14 148 54 48 5 .532 .000 .333 10.6 3.9 3.4 0.4 0.2 .051 -3.4 -0.1
[/b]2018 NBA 2 60 Kostas Antetokounmpo (↳DAL) Dayton 2 11 2 1 0 .000 .500 5.5 1.0 0.5 0.0 -0.1 -0.247 -13.3 0.0
Year Lg Rd Pk Player College G MP PTS TRB AST FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST WS WS/48 BPM VORP
2017 NBA 1 1 Markelle Fultz Washington 33 680 255 113 112 .414 .267 .534 20.6 7.7 3.4 3.4 0.5 .038 -3.1 -0.2
2017 NBA 2 36 Jonah Bolden 44 639 207 165 40 .494 .354 .481 14.5 4.7 3.8 0.9 1.4 .106 1.2 0.5
2017 NBA 2 39 Jawun Evans (↳LAC) Oklahoma State 56 843 237 96 110 .345 .263 .776 15.1 4.2 1.7 2.0 -0.4 -0.022 -5.2 -0.7
2017 NBA 2 46 Sterling Brown (↳MIL) SMU 112 1810 589 327 109 .439 .357 .758 16.2 5.3 2.9 1.0 2.8 .074 -2.6 -0.3
2017 NBA 2 50 Mathias Lessort
Year Lg Rd Pk Player College G MP PTS TRB AST FG% 3P% FT% MP PTS TRB AST WS WS/48 BPM VORP
2016 NBA 1 1 Ben Simmons LSU 160 5432 2616 1356 1271 .554 .000 .583 34.0 16.4 8.5 7.9 17.5 .154 4.3 8.7
2016 NBA 1 24 Timothé Luwawu-Cabarrot 171 2666 975 318 155 .387 .320 .820 15.6 5.7 1.9 0.9 1.8 .033 -4.5 -1.6
2016 NBA 1 26 Furkan Korkmaz

A LOT of value there.

Now look at the young players on the current team.

Joel Embiid C 7-0 250 March 16, 1994 cm 3 Kansas
Josh Richardson G 6-6 200 September 15, 1993 us 4 Tennessee
Ben Simmons G-F 6-10 230 July 20, 1996 au 2 LSU
Zhaire Smith G 6-4 199 June 4, 1999 us 1 Texas Tech
Jonah Bolden F 6-10 220 January 2, 1996 au 1 UCLA

Shake Milton (TW) G 6-6 207 September 26, 1996 us 1 SMU
Norvel Pelle (TW) F-C 6-11 215 February 3, 1993 ag R
Matisse Thybulle G 6-5 200 March 4, 1997 us R Washington
Marial Shayok (TW) G 6-5 198 July 26, 1995 ca R Virginia, Iowa State

Al Horford C-F 6-10 245 June 3, 1986 do 12 Florida
Tobias Harris F 6-9 235 July 15, 1992 us 8 Tennessee
Mike Scott F 6-8 237 July 16, 1988 us 7 Virginia
Kyle O'Quinn F-C 6-10 250 March 26, 1990 us 7 Norfolk State
James Ennis F 6-7 210 July 1, 1990 us 5 Cal State Long Beach
Raul Neto G 6-1 179 May 19, 1992 br 4
Trey Burke G 6-1 175 November 12, 1992 us 6 Michigan
Christ Koumadje C 7-4 268 July 7, 1996 td R Florida State
Isaiah Miles F 6-8 225 June 9, 1994 us R Saint Joseph's
Furkan Korkmaz G 6-7 190 July 24, 1997 tr 2

Not sure if you're keeping track of the draft as well as others, but considering they're late 1sts to undrafted, those dudes are steals.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:14 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
alleyoop wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Remember how trash the 2013 draft was? I don't even know if former #1 pick Anthony Bennett even plays basketball anymore.

But that same draft just produced this year's DPOY and MVP.

You just never know.

2013 draft’s top end actually competes kind of well with the years it’s sandwiched between, now

2013: Davis, Lillard, Beal, Green
2013: Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, McCollum
2014: Embiid, Jokic, LaVine, Randle

Good point!

Look at how all over the draft boards those players were selected, though. The NBA really has to find a way to be better at this.



Should the research to improve drafting focus more on why there are so many misses at the top or to not let so many gems fall so far down the draft order?

Those issues kind of overlap, don't they?


To a certain extent they do.

But what will be the best (most efficient) way to correct the problem? Do a better job of finding the gems early enough so they don't drop so far down the draft order or do a better job of figuring out which of the mostly young guys that have been getting drafted early will be a miss?

Do a better job of identifying the duds early in the draft evaluation process or identifying the winners early?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:23 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
But what will be the best (most efficient) way to correct the problem? Do a better job of finding the gems early enough so they don't drop so far down the draft order or do a better job of figuring out which of the mostly young guys that have been getting drafted early will be a miss?


Honestly, it's scout better. A lot of these guys get 90% of the draft right. But it's that last 10%, where you're finding steals in later rounds or certain attributes of a player that go underrated, where the real advantage is.

Every time LAL drafts anything similarly to any kind of draft list I have, those guys tend to pan out. When they don't (omg what happened in 2018), the results speak for themselves.

But I do spend time every day chatting it up with draft guys who have ranked Tyler Herro as high as #3 or lottery, and while 99.9% of the basketball world thinks it's ridiculous, it's more important to be with the 0.01% that asks, "Why do you rank him that high?" "What is it about Kentucky that is hiding his skills?" "What skills is he hiding?" "What skills has he shown before that translate to the NBA level?"

Personally, I don't think there are GMs that think this deeply, and it feels like a handful of scouts that actually do. Even then, it's that much harder to find guys that can agree to listen and open up to new ideas instead of shutting them out with "traditional scouting."

I think a lot of teams don't even understand what they're draft philosophy is. And if they do, it's often the incorrect one. The Phoenix Suns can't just draft a BPA and they'll automatically succeed. They need BPAs that can find ways to thrive, in their actual culture****

More important than position and finding specific skill set is the question, "Can this player succeed/thrive on our NBA team?" Ask that question, get rid of the guys on the draft list that cannot, and make an actual list, ranked, in order through agreement with the scouting team and GM, and then walk into draft day after having talked everything through.

Then you get steals everywhere. LAL has done a phenomenal job with that, just like they did in the 1980s, and that kind of advanced process is much more important than "This guy played 4 years so he should contribute right away."

Nothing is farther from the truth.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:28 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
alleyoop wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Remember how trash the 2013 draft was? I don't even know if former #1 pick Anthony Bennett even plays basketball anymore.

But that same draft just produced this year's DPOY and MVP.

You just never know.

2013 draft’s top end actually competes kind of well with the years it’s sandwiched between, now

2013: Davis, Lillard, Beal, Green
2013: Giannis, Gobert, Oladipo, McCollum
2014: Embiid, Jokic, LaVine, Randle

Good point!

Look at how all over the draft boards those players were selected, though. The NBA really has to find a way to be better at this.



Should the research to improve drafting focus more on why there are so many misses at the top or to not let so many gems fall so far down the draft order?


Player Development, per team, is a heavily underrated aspect to determining the success of a draft pick.

Yes, the pick has to bring a baseline set of skills, intangibles, size, and athleticism combination to hang in the league.

But the team has to use those specific tools and find ways to optimize players into team success.

Phoenix can't do that.

The 76ers, can.

LAL, could do better still.



I agree with that.

Also if a team has a high draft pick because they are just bad*, the FO might be considered suspect/weak and might not be up to the task of drafting wisely.

__________
* Excluding teams with lottery luck, hard tankers and good teams with a draft pick from a bad team.


Last edited by Bard207 on Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Also if a team has a high draft pick because they are just bad*, the FO might be considered suspect/weak and might not be up to the task of drafting wisely.


I find LAL in a peculiar situation because the FO is like a top FO for a lottery team on a rebuild, more so than a high end coach with an offensive coordinator, the most elite of training staffs, for a championship team.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:56 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:

But the team has to use those specific tools and find ways to optimize players into team success.

Phoenix can't do that.

The 76ers, can.

LAL, could do better still.



You mentioned Phoenix and it brought up my thoughts about the former GM (McDonough) coming from the Boston FO.

Considering the number of draft picks that Ainge has had over the years, Boston has very little to show for it in veterans on the current roster. They have mostly players still on rookie contracts and veterans signed as free agents.

Ainge has had more draft picks and a few more higher drafts picks than McDonough had to work with, but the general theme of underperforming when drafting applies to Ainge as well.
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