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activeverb
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:24 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
activeverb wrote:
joeblow wrote:

It wasn't a tackle, it was a vicious clothes line to the facial area. The exact same action is a criminal offense off the court... I mean, how is that debatable?

With that said, we may be arguing semantics on the general point being made in the end. I said above that the difference is that players are under NBA rules to a large extent that covers these type of infractions in-house. You seem to be saying the same thing more or less in your last post.


No. We are not arguing semantics. We are not saying more or less the same thing.

You are just having trouble understanding what "consent" means as a legal concept and how it applies.

I get your confusion: I can understand why its difficult to grasp the idea that an NBA player, by stepping onto the court, has legally consented to be clotheslined by another player, and yet the NBA can still sanction a player for clotheslining, even if it is legal.


There is also confusion because of the rules. Back in 1984, McHale's clotheslining of Rambis was ruled a common foul. Today, it would be ruled a Flagrant-2, with McHale ejected AND - depending on the circumstances, jurisdiction, etc. - charged with criminal assault.

It hasn't happened in the NBA yet, but in HS and college, players have been charged with assault by the local authorities. It's also happened a couple times in the NHL. I'd imagine most DA's would not want to jump down that rabbit hole, but I could see a small market team with a DA up for re-election or looking to move to Congress pressing the case to make a name for him/herself. Of course the DA won't be going up against a run of the mill local public defender - they'll be facing a player with considerable resources (and likely the Union, as well). City & County lawyers don't tend to do well against defendants who can match or exceed the prosecutor's budget. If I recall correctly, in Kobe's case, the Eagle, CO, prosecutor had to petition the state for a few extra million to cover the potential costs of trying Kobe - and it never went to trial.



Basically, it comes down to if the action is so egregious that it falls outside the contact that could reasonably be expected. And that is different than whether the contact is allowed by the rules of the game. And of course whether something is that egregious is a matter of opinion.

A lot of the cases of high school players being charged with assault, for example, involve their attacking referees. Referees do not implicitly consent to the same degree of contact as players do.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:21 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
joeblow wrote:
But back to why all of this came up: I am saying this is the same reason why Simmons vs. 76ers is unlikely to be handled in a court of law outside of the review and arbitration of NBA officials. If a player <EDIT: I meant "person"> getting paid is disputed, the civil courts are there to remedy that if no one wants to budge. However, in the NBA both sides would likely defer to a process run by the league to work things out.


This isn't the way it works.

The league and the players union have agreed to a Collective Bargaining Agreement, which is a contract in which both sides agree on how they will handle things like salary disputes.

In the case of a playing withholding services, the CBA says the issue will be handled by arbitration.

Arbitration is, in effect, a courtroom where both sides present their arguments and the arbitrator issues a ruling that both sides must follow.

The arbitrator is not a league official. He is a neutral third party, like a law school dean.

Neither the league or the player can unilateral seek redress in a civil suit, because both sides have already contractually agreed to have their issue settled by arbitration.

You are pretty much saying the exact same thing (in principal) that I've been saying since the first post. To keep it simple: if there is a salary dispute between a player and his team, it is handled in-house by the league. Bringing in an arbitrator is still in-house (I guessed the VP of NBA Operations and said I wasn't sure).

So when I specifically said it won't leave outside the NBA to be handled in a court as a formal civil case or something like that, apparently (in principal) you agree. The specifics are what they are, but in the big picture of things it will be resolved by the NBA's process outlined in the CBA, which is what my first post literally said:

joeblow wrote:

Lol, players and teams don't go outside of the Collective Bargaining Agreement to the courts to settle disputes. They are obligated to keep it internal.


...and THAT comment was a follow-up to your line of comments on the topic which started with this incorrect statement (that you've now changed in recent posts):

activeverb wrote:

The upfront money would be contingent on him providing services. If Simmons withheld those services for no valid reason, I imagine the 76ers could take him to court or arbitration and recover the money from him ultimately, if they so chose.


It's like we're in bizarro world where you accuse me of saying stuff I never said, but that you actually did.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:42 pm    Post subject:

^^^

Last edited by activeverb on Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:
To keep it simple: if there is a salary dispute between a player and his team, it is handled in-house by the league. Bringing in an arbitrator is still in-house (I guessed the VP of NBA Operations and said I wasn't sure).


The disconnect seems to be that you are using the term "the league" to include more than just the league itself, i.e., the NBA. The NBA is management. The NBPA is labor. Their interests are often antagonistic. The CBA provides a grievance process to resolve disputes. In the case of contract disputes, the grievance process leads to arbitration with a neutral decisionmaker.

So when you say its "in-house," that's not right. The arbitrator is not someone with the NBA, in the case of a contract dispute. What I think you mean is that it doesn't go to court but instead gets resolved through a process under the CBA. That's correct.

The reason why I keep saying "in the case of a contract dispute" is that a CBA can provide that the arbitrator for certain types of disputes, such as player discipline, can be a management employee. We saw this with both the NFL and MLB in recent years. Roger Goodell was the "arbitrator" in one of the cases (Tom Brady deflategate, I think). Management and labor can agree to this, but naturally unions are going to be resistant in most cases.

This may be what is confusing you. But in the case of contract disputes in the NBA, the arbitrator is a neutral third party.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:36 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
joeblow wrote:
To keep it simple: if there is a salary dispute between a player and his team, it is handled in-house by the league. Bringing in an arbitrator is still in-house (I guessed the VP of NBA Operations and said I wasn't sure).


The disconnect seems to be that you are using the term "the league" to include more than just the league itself, i.e., the NBA. The NBA is management. The NBPA is labor. Their interests are often antagonistic. The CBA provides a grievance process to resolve disputes. In the case of contract disputes, the grievance process leads to arbitration with a neutral decisionmaker.

So when you say its "in-house," that's not right. The arbitrator is not someone with the NBA, in the case of a contract dispute. What I think you mean is that it doesn't go to court but instead gets resolved through a process under the CBA. That's correct.

The reason why I keep saying "in the case of a contract dispute" is that a CBA can provide that the arbitrator for certain types of disputes, such as player discipline, can be a management employee. We saw this with both the NFL and MLB in recent years. Roger Goodell was the "arbitrator" in one of the cases (Tom Brady deflategate, I think). Management and labor can agree to this, but naturally unions are going to be resistant in most cases.

This may be what is confusing you. But in the case of contract disputes in the NBA, the arbitrator is a neutral third party.


You explained this very well.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:51 am    Post subject:

@BleacherReport
The Warriors have "increasing concern" about the availability of Andrew Wiggins due to local COVID-19 mandates, per
@Rusty_SFChron

He has declined getting the vaccine and said he won't receive it unless he's forced to.
https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1440876243466047488

@RealGM
Andrew Wiggins Remains Against COVID-19 Vaccination, Could Miss Home Games
https://twitter.com/RealGM/status/1440858054526914561


Okay so Simmons is going to the Warriors


Enjoy Philly, Wiggins.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:07 am    Post subject:

It sounds like Wiggins is going to ask for a religious exemption. I don't know anything about his personal life. I just hope for all concerned that this isn't one of those bogus religious claims that have popped up among anti-vaxxers. It would get ugly if the City of San Francisco denies the exemption.
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venturalakersfan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:27 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
@BleacherReport
The Warriors have "increasing concern" about the availability of Andrew Wiggins due to local COVID-19 mandates, per
@Rusty_SFChron

He has declined getting the vaccine and said he won't receive it unless he's forced to.
https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1440876243466047488

@RealGM
Andrew Wiggins Remains Against COVID-19 Vaccination, Could Miss Home Games
https://twitter.com/RealGM/status/1440858054526914561


Okay so Simmons is going to the Warriors


Enjoy Philly, Wiggins.


Wouldn’t the entertainment exemption that the Emmys used apply there?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
@BleacherReport
The Warriors have "increasing concern" about the availability of Andrew Wiggins due to local COVID-19 mandates, per
@Rusty_SFChron

He has declined getting the vaccine and said he won't receive it unless he's forced to.
https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1440876243466047488

@RealGM
Andrew Wiggins Remains Against COVID-19 Vaccination, Could Miss Home Games
https://twitter.com/RealGM/status/1440858054526914561

Okay so Simmons is going to the Warriors

Enjoy Philly, Wiggins.


They can trade him to Texas or Florida, he’ll play home games there.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:34 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
MJST wrote:
@BleacherReport
The Warriors have "increasing concern" about the availability of Andrew Wiggins due to local COVID-19 mandates, per
@Rusty_SFChron

He has declined getting the vaccine and said he won't receive it unless he's forced to.
https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1440876243466047488

@RealGM
Andrew Wiggins Remains Against COVID-19 Vaccination, Could Miss Home Games
https://twitter.com/RealGM/status/1440858054526914561


Okay so Simmons is going to the Warriors


Enjoy Philly, Wiggins.


Wouldn’t the entertainment exemption that the Emmys used apply there?



The entertainment exemption, which allows performers to not wear masks inside, comes from the LA County Board of Public Health.

Typically, the exemption is issued when the performer is in a controlled environment. For example, the emmys got the exemption, in part, because all attendees were required to be vaccinated and take a covid test before the event. Wiggins would not have been allowed to attend the emmys since he is not vaccinated.

This only applies to Los Angeles county. Health departments in other areas can have other rules, so there isn't any uniform "entertainment exemption" around the country.

The San Francisco Department of Public Health probably doesn't routinely issue "entertainment exemptions" since there isn't a lot of film and music production in the city.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:57 pm    Post subject:

To the surprise of absolutely nobody:

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264154/Kyrie-Irving-Hasnt-Received-COVID-19-Vaccine-Status-For-Brooklyn-Home-Games-In-Question
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:59 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
^^^

I read the post here before your edit and agree with no hard feelings.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:58 pm    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
^^^

I read the post here before your edit and agree with no hard feelings.


Very gracious of you. I posted a message that was a bit snippy, and I deleted it when I realized that. I was trying to be clever, but it was unnecessarily snide, and there's no reason to go there. My agologies.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:16 pm    Post subject:

gng930 wrote:
To the surprise of absolutely nobody:

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264154/Kyrie-Irving-Hasnt-Received-COVID-19-Vaccine-Status-For-Brooklyn-Home-Games-In-Question


I'm glad that he exercised his free will. I hope more people exercise their free will.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:47 pm    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
gng930 wrote:
To the surprise of absolutely nobody:

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264154/Kyrie-Irving-Hasnt-Received-COVID-19-Vaccine-Status-For-Brooklyn-Home-Games-In-Question


I'm glad that he exercised his free will. I hope more people exercise their free will.


When you look up stupid in the dictionary, you'll see a picture of Irving.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:00 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
@BleacherReport
The Warriors have "increasing concern" about the availability of Andrew Wiggins due to local COVID-19 mandates, per
@Rusty_SFChron

He has declined getting the vaccine and said he won't receive it unless he's forced to.
https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1440876243466047488

@RealGM
Andrew Wiggins Remains Against COVID-19 Vaccination, Could Miss Home Games
https://twitter.com/RealGM/status/1440858054526914561


Okay so Simmons is going to the Warriors


Enjoy Philly, Wiggins.


I'm going to have to bite my lip alot this season, trying to not derail threads.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:48 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
MJST wrote:
@BleacherReport
The Warriors have "increasing concern" about the availability of Andrew Wiggins due to local COVID-19 mandates, per
@Rusty_SFChron

He has declined getting the vaccine and said he won't receive it unless he's forced to.
https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1440876243466047488

@RealGM
Andrew Wiggins Remains Against COVID-19 Vaccination, Could Miss Home Games
https://twitter.com/RealGM/status/1440858054526914561


Okay so Simmons is going to the Warriors


Enjoy Philly, Wiggins.


I'm going to have to bite my lip alot this season, trying to not derail threads.


Nothing like Americas FreeDumb
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:49 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
@BleacherReport
The Warriors have "increasing concern" about the availability of Andrew Wiggins due to local COVID-19 mandates, per
@Rusty_SFChron

He has declined getting the vaccine and said he won't receive it unless he's forced to.
https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1440876243466047488

@RealGM
Andrew Wiggins Remains Against COVID-19 Vaccination, Could Miss Home Games
https://twitter.com/RealGM/status/1440858054526914561


Okay so Simmons is going to the Warriors


Enjoy Philly, Wiggins.


If Warriors can't use him for home games, he's gone. Doubt the Bay Area will give him an exception since he's a high profile athlete.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:54 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
MJST wrote:
@BleacherReport
The Warriors have "increasing concern" about the availability of Andrew Wiggins due to local COVID-19 mandates, per
@Rusty_SFChron

He has declined getting the vaccine and said he won't receive it unless he's forced to.
https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1440876243466047488

@RealGM
Andrew Wiggins Remains Against COVID-19 Vaccination, Could Miss Home Games
https://twitter.com/RealGM/status/1440858054526914561


Okay so Simmons is going to the Warriors


Enjoy Philly, Wiggins.


If Warriors can't use him for home games, he's gone. Doubt the Bay Area will give him an exception since he's a high profile athlete.


When your traveling like they do why wouldn’t you get vaccinated? Whatever I’m not gonna derail the thread
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:03 am    Post subject:

Not getting vaccinated? Basically a no trade clause?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:21 am    Post subject:

Kyrie and Wiggins are idiots. Kyrie I expected because he seems to love being “that guy”, Wiggins however was a surprise.

In the case of the Nets, Kyrie misses at least 41 games this season, which doesn’t include any away games he can’t play in, and home/playoff games. Freaking dangerous idiots.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:41 am    Post subject:

Megaton wrote:
Kyrie and Wiggins are idiots. Kyrie I expected because he seems to love being “that guy”, Wiggins however was a surprise.

In the case of the Nets, Kyrie misses at least 41 games this season, which doesn’t include any away games he can’t play in, and home/playoff games. Freaking dangerous idiots.


Kyrie just likes to stir the pot. I'll be surprised if he takes it that far.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:07 am    Post subject:

I'm pretty sure it's easy enough to get a religious exemption. Kyrie won't be missing any games because of this.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:27 am    Post subject:

free will when you are in isolation doing your job is fine. but there are consequences when your job is playing in front of 20K people everyday.

I know most big companies are asking perople to get vaccinated and if not look out for a new job. NBA should do the same.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:39 am    Post subject:

LGFan wrote:
free will when you are in isolation doing your job is fine. but there are consequences when your job is playing in front of 20K people everyday.

I know most big companies are asking perople to get vaccinated and if not look out for a new job. NBA should do the same.


Not very smart when they are privileged professional athletes making hundreds of millions of dollars on the line. Not to mention in pro sports there is always somebody willing to replace said player on a lesser salary.
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