OFFICIAL GENERAL FREE AGENCY/TRADE THREAD (Shams: Lakers to sign Sekou Doumbouya)
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Jordan-esque
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:44 am    Post subject:

Nash Vegas wrote:
Lonzo-Lite wrote:
Jordan-esque wrote:
Lonzo-Lite wrote:
To celebrate Bibigo Korean Foods (yummy 🍱) being the new Lakers sponsor:

Tzuyu from K-pop girl group TWICE dancing in her Kobe jersey.


Wow! How come I’ve never seen this before?

Lakers X Twice

Should’ve shared it on the K-pop 🌎 Donination Thread: http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=191397


Ok I’ll post it on there too: TWICE x LAKERS performance.


So this is K-pop? Pretty girls dancing and singing with Lakers apparel? I can get behind it.


This statement is 95% accurate, they also wear other cute/sexy outfits and from other sports too, MLB for example:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V19w2_iF6uI

Join the Kpop train. Your only regret will be you wished you joined sooner.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:46 am    Post subject:

^ Hmmm we’ll see.

In other news for those wondering about Avery Bradley, he or IT to the Warriors.

https://twitter.com/marcjspears/status/1440744154695278594?s=21
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:48 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
joeblow wrote:
activeverb wrote:

joeblow wrote:

Think about it: there are sometimes flagrant fouls committed so egregiously that if someone else did it in "real life", they'd be arrested. With the CBA they get fined/suspended instead.


As I understand it, what you're talking about here has nothing to do with the CBA but state and federal laws about consent. When someone agrees to play a sport, they effectively consent to physical contact consistent with the rules of the game. By stepping onto the court, the players consent to the possibilities of being fouled. Generally, even a "flagrant foul" falls within the parameters of the physical conduct players have agreed to, legally speaking.

Theoretically (and in reality) players have been arrested and sued for physical contact that goes outside the bounds of the sport. For example, Rudy Tomjanovich sued Kermit Washington for the famous incident where Washington punched him during the game, and they settled out of court. Additional, players have been arrested for attacking referees, since referees do not implicitly consent to physical contact with players to the same degree that players agree to contact with other players.


That doesn't change what I said, which was "there are sometimes flagrant fouls committed so egregiously that if someone else did it in "real life", they'd be arrested". I didn't say that all aggressive actions are ignored by the law.

For instance, when McHale viciously took out Rambis with a clothesline, a common foul was called. If he did that to some random guy out on the street, he'd have been arrested. In the context of how the league is structured, it was handled "in house" instead of independently by legal authorities.


You're talking apples and oranges. The NBA's rules and procedures are unrelated to law enforcement. The reason law enforcement did not become involved in the incidents you cite is because no laws were broken, not because they decided to let the NBA handle the situation.

Wait a sec... you're saying that a 6'9" guy like McHale could go to a supermarket and viciously clothesline somebody and NOT be arrested? You can't possibly believe that.

If you agree that he would be taken into custody in "real life", then the question is why didn't it happen in the game? It's not because the rules allow it (like in mixed martial arts, for example). A foul was called so it was definitely against NBA rules even before flagrants were added.

The reason is because, as I've been saying, that the structure of the league handles a lot of these type of things in-house. That was just an example of why I wouldn't expect a Ben Simmons vs. 76ers case to be fought outside of the league under some other legal jurisdiction. Maybe the VP of NBA Operations would arbitrate the dispute, I dunno, but I doubt it goes beyond something like that.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:00 am    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
joeblow wrote:
activeverb wrote:

joeblow wrote:

Think about it: there are sometimes flagrant fouls committed so egregiously that if someone else did it in "real life", they'd be arrested. With the CBA they get fined/suspended instead.


As I understand it, what you're talking about here has nothing to do with the CBA but state and federal laws about consent. When someone agrees to play a sport, they effectively consent to physical contact consistent with the rules of the game. By stepping onto the court, the players consent to the possibilities of being fouled. Generally, even a "flagrant foul" falls within the parameters of the physical conduct players have agreed to, legally speaking.

Theoretically (and in reality) players have been arrested and sued for physical contact that goes outside the bounds of the sport. For example, Rudy Tomjanovich sued Kermit Washington for the famous incident where Washington punched him during the game, and they settled out of court. Additional, players have been arrested for attacking referees, since referees do not implicitly consent to physical contact with players to the same degree that players agree to contact with other players.


That doesn't change what I said, which was "there are sometimes flagrant fouls committed so egregiously that if someone else did it in "real life", they'd be arrested". I didn't say that all aggressive actions are ignored by the law.

For instance, when McHale viciously took out Rambis with a clothesline, a common foul was called. If he did that to some random guy out on the street, he'd have been arrested. In the context of how the league is structured, it was handled "in house" instead of independently by legal authorities.


You're talking apples and oranges. The NBA's rules and procedures are unrelated to law enforcement. The reason law enforcement did not become involved in the incidents you cite is because no laws were broken, not because they decided to let the NBA handle the situation.

Wait a sec... you're saying that a 6'9" guy like McHale could go to a supermarket and viciously clothesline somebody and NOT be arrested? You can't possibly believe that.

If you agree that he would be taken into custody in "real life", then the question is why didn't it happen in the game? It's not because the rules allow it (like in mixed martial arts, for example). A foul was called so it was definitely against NBA rules even before flagrants were added.

The reason is because, as I've been saying, that the structure of the league handles a lot of these type of things in-house. That was just an example of why I wouldn't expect a Ben Simmons vs. 76ers case to be fought outside of the league under some other legal jurisdiction. Maybe the VP of NBA Operations would arbitrate the dispute, I dunno, but I doubt it goes beyond something like that.


I think the point is, is that fouls are also a part of the game so it does fall under the consent. But in Kermit's case, a punch to face not during a play does not fall under a basketball foul. Obviously there is grey area and there is always room for "excessive" outliers.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:27 am    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:
Wait a sec... you're saying that a 6'9" guy like McHale could go to a supermarket and viciously clothesline somebody and NOT be arrested? You can't possibly believe that.

If you agree that he would be taken into custody in "real life", then the question is why didn't it happen in the game? It's not because the rules allow it (like in mixed martial arts, for example). A foul was called so it was definitely against NBA rules even before flagrants were added.

The reason is because, as I've been saying, that the structure of the league handles a lot of these type of things in-house. That was just an example of why I wouldn't expect a Ben Simmons vs. 76ers case to be fought outside of the league under some other legal jurisdiction. Maybe the VP of NBA Operations would arbitrate the dispute, I dunno, but I doubt it goes beyond something like that.


You're missing the point about consent. When you play in a contact sport, you consent to contact that would be illegal if you did it to a stranger in a supermarket. Every play in the NFL has multiple instances of contact that would be criminal in the supermarket.

This is not limited to sports played in leagues with rules. If you and I play a pickup football game in the park, or if we play a pickup basketball game in a driveway, we both consent to physical contact that would be problematic at the supermarket. Yes, you consent to getting fouled.

The criminal laws come into play when the conduct goes beyond the realm of consent. This is why a couple hockey players were successfully prosecuted. When I go to the supermarket, I do not consent to physical contact (especially at WalMart).
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:29 am    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:

Wait a sec... you're saying that a 6'9" guy like McHale could go to a supermarket and viciously clothesline somebody and NOT be arrested? You can't possibly believe that.

If you agree that he would be taken into custody in "real life", then the question is why didn't it happen in the game? It's not because the rules allow it (like in mixed martial arts, for example). A foul was called so it was definitely against NBA rules even before flagrants were added.

The reason is because, as I've been saying, that the structure of the league handles a lot of these type of things in-house.


You are wrong.

McHale would be arrested for tackling someone in the supermarket because that is against the law.

McHale would not be arrested for tackling a player in an NBA game because that is not illegal -- the player, from a legal standpoint, consented to being tackled when he stepped onto the court.

It's really that simple. It has nothing to do with whether or not the NBA has any kind of rules and procedures in place about tackling.

If you can't grasp the distinction, I don't know what else I can say.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:37 am    Post subject:

Laker Hefe wrote:
I think the point is, is that fouls are also a part of the game so it does fall under the consent. But in Kermit's case, a punch to face not during a play does not fall under a basketball foul. Obviously there is grey area and there is always room for "excessive" outliers.


Kermit could have been prosecuted. If it had happened in Houston, he might very well have been charged. But it happened at the Forum, and the LA prosecutors let it go. I had just moved to Houston at the time, and I can recall that there were a lot of people pissed that he didn't get charged.

But really, there are fights in sports all the time, and I don't just mean hockey. Remember Nolan Ryan pummeling Robin Ventura? The tragic thing about the Kermit Washington-Rudy Tomjanovich incident wasn't so much the punch as it was that the punch caught Rudy at just the wrong spot. Kermit wasn't trying to seriously injure him.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:05 pm    Post subject:

Nash Vegas wrote:
^ Hmmm we’ll see.

In other news for those wondering about Avery Bradley, he or IT to the Warriors.

https://twitter.com/marcjspears/status/1440744154695278594?s=21


That's a solid pickup. AB was lights out for us when he got used to our system
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:39 pm    Post subject:

If Doc didn’t do anything wrong why is he now denying he said it?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:41 pm    Post subject:

Simmons must stop acting like a baby.

Doc should have benched him in closing minutes much before he did. Sixers management supported him even after losing few playoff games just because how pathetic Simmons was. teams kept on fouling him and doc refused to sit. Sixers gave up on him in the end . People here acting like Sixers threw him under the bus. No they Didn't
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Laker Hefe wrote:
I think the point is, is that fouls are also a part of the game so it does fall under the consent. But in Kermit's case, a punch to face not during a play does not fall under a basketball foul. Obviously there is grey area and there is always room for "excessive" outliers.


Kermit could have been prosecuted. If it had happened in Houston, he might very well have been charged. But it happened at the Forum, and the LA prosecutors let it go. I had just moved to Houston at the time, and I can recall that there were a lot of people pissed that he didn't get charged.

But really, there are fights in sports all the time, and I don't just mean hockey. Remember Nolan Ryan pummeling Robin Ventura? The tragic thing about the Kermit Washington-Rudy Tomjanovich incident wasn't so much the punch as it was that the punch caught Rudy at just the wrong spot. Kermit wasn't trying to seriously injure him.



Ironically, Kermit found himself in jail 40 years later for embezzling millions of dollars meant for kids in Africa.

The guy had a tough life. His mom was bipolar. His brother committed suicide. The Rudy incident.

David Halberstam, in his great book Breaks of the Game, did an amazing job telling the story of the punch and the aftermath.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:01 pm    Post subject:

Philly should just take on DLO, he will give the Sixers a more dynamic outlook offensively and if it doesn’t work out they can trade him down the road.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:13 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Laker Hefe wrote:
I think the point is, is that fouls are also a part of the game so it does fall under the consent. But in Kermit's case, a punch to face not during a play does not fall under a basketball foul. Obviously there is grey area and there is always room for "excessive" outliers.


Kermit could have been prosecuted. If it had happened in Houston, he might very well have been charged. But it happened at the Forum, and the LA prosecutors let it go. I had just moved to Houston at the time, and I can recall that there were a lot of people pissed that he didn't get charged.

But really, there are fights in sports all the time, and I don't just mean hockey. Remember Nolan Ryan pummeling Robin Ventura? The tragic thing about the Kermit Washington-Rudy Tomjanovich incident wasn't so much the punch as it was that the punch caught Rudy at just the wrong spot. Kermit wasn't trying to seriously injure him.



Ironically, Kermit found himself in jail 40 years later for embezzling millions of dollars meant for kids in Africa.

The guy had a tough life. His mom was bipolar. His brother committed suicide. The Rudy incident.

David Halberstam, in his great book Breaks of the Game, did an amazing job telling the story of the punch and the aftermath.


Yeah very unfortunate with Kermit....but to say Kermit was trying to seriously injure him?....remember the incident...Kermit was involved in an altercation with Kevin Kunnert...Rudy ran up from the side and Kermit thought Rudy was going to punch or assault him (at least that's what he claimed). Kermit threw a punch as Rudy was running up to him so it was a horrific blow. But it wasn't like Kermit sought Rudy out. If Rudy didn't run up to the incident nothing would've happened to him.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:34 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
joeblow wrote:

Wait a sec... you're saying that a 6'9" guy like McHale could go to a supermarket and viciously clothesline somebody and NOT be arrested? You can't possibly believe that.

If you agree that he would be taken into custody in "real life", then the question is why didn't it happen in the game? It's not because the rules allow it (like in mixed martial arts, for example). A foul was called so it was definitely against NBA rules even before flagrants were added.

The reason is because, as I've been saying, that the structure of the league handles a lot of these type of things in-house.


You are wrong.

McHale would be arrested for tackling someone in the supermarket because that is against the law.

McHale would not be arrested for tackling a player in an NBA game because that is not illegal -- the player, from a legal standpoint, consented to being tackled when he stepped onto the court.

It's really that simple. It has nothing to do with whether or not the NBA has any kind of rules and procedures in place about tackling.

If you can't grasp the distinction, I don't know what else I can say.

It wasn't a tackle, it was a vicious clothes line to the facial area. The exact same action is a criminal offense off the court... I mean, how is that debatable?

With that said, we may be arguing semantics on the general point being made in the end. I said above that the difference is that players are under NBA rules to a large extent that covers these type of infractions in-house. You seem to be saying the same thing more or less in your last post.

But back to why all of this came up: I am saying this is the same reason why Simmons vs. 76ers is unlikely to be handled in a court of law outside of the review and arbitration of NBA officials. If a player <EDIT: I meant "person"> getting paid is disputed, the civil courts are there to remedy that if no one wants to budge. However, in the NBA both sides would likely defer to a process run by the league to work things out.


Last edited by joeblow on Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:49 pm    Post subject:

Sixers could’ve traded Simmons for Harden last season but nope!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:46 pm    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:
But back to why all of this came up: I am saying this is the same reason why Simmons vs. 76ers is unlikely to be handled in a court of law outside of the review and arbitration of NBA officials. If a player getting paid is disputed, the civil courts are there to remedy that if no one wants to budge. However, in the NBA both sides would likely defer to a process run by the league to work things out.


It’s all subject to the union grievance process. It is not arbitrated by NBA officials. The arbitrator is a neutral. This would be governed by the CBA.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:47 pm    Post subject:

https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2021/9/22/22688713/frank-vogel-rajon-rondo-not-play-much-minutes-lakers-jared-dudley-role

That's good to know, Rajon is an upgrade on Dudz, I think. That helps explain the guard backlog as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:51 pm    Post subject:

This is a chance for those teams that never get free agents to pounce. Sacramento needs to jump all over this. No one is ever going to go there voluntarily (no one that good). You will have Ben locked up for 4-5 years. This is a no-brainer. Give up Haliburton! How many times have we seen a guy have a great rookie season then just fall off. Imagine if we traded Kuzma earlier, he was talked about on close to the same level as tatum and fox.

All these teams trying to hold on to guys when they continuously SUCK every year no matter who they have. Take some chances!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:32 pm    Post subject:

Nash Vegas wrote:
Sixers could’ve traded Simmons for Harden last season but nope!


Morey thought he could get Harden without including Ben.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:36 pm    Post subject:

Nash Vegas wrote:
Sixers could’ve traded Simmons for Harden last season but nope!

Im sure the 76ers do that all day everyday but the Rockets refused trade him there because of Morey.
Instead they went with one of the worst trade packages you could possible get for a MVP level player
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:37 pm    Post subject:

Rondo is essentially getting paid MILLIONS to interview for a future assistant coach role with Frank. hence starting Rajon's ascension to an eventual head coaching position in the league. Life could be worse!

Chick's Magic Johnson wrote:
https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2021/9/22/22688713/frank-vogel-rajon-rondo-not-play-much-minutes-lakers-jared-dudley-role

That's good to know, Rajon is an upgrade on Dudz, I think. That helps explain the guard backlog as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:45 pm    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:
But back to why all of this came up: I am saying this is the same reason why Simmons vs. 76ers is unlikely to be handled in a court of law outside of the review and arbitration of NBA officials. If a player getting paid is disputed, the civil courts are there to remedy that if no one wants to budge. However, in the NBA both sides would likely defer to a process run by the league to work things out.


This isn't the way it works.

The league and the players union have agreed to a Collective Bargaining Agreement, which is a contract in which both sides agree on how they will handle things like salary disputes.

In the case of a playing withholding services, the CBA says the issue will be handled by arbitration.

Arbitration is, in effect, a courtroom where both sides present their arguments and the arbitrator issues a ruling that both sides must follow.

The arbitrator is not a league official. He is a neutral third party, like a law school dean.

Neither the league or the player can unilateral seek redress in a civil suit, because both sides have already contractually agreed to have their issue settled by arbitration.


Last edited by activeverb on Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:50 pm    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
Sixers could’ve traded Simmons for Harden last season but nope!

Im sure the 76ers do that all day everyday but the Rockets refused trade him there because of Morey.
Instead they went with one of the worst trade packages you could possible get for a MVP level player


That trade was horrible
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:21 pm    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:

It wasn't a tackle, it was a vicious clothes line to the facial area. The exact same action is a criminal offense off the court... I mean, how is that debatable?

With that said, we may be arguing semantics on the general point being made in the end. I said above that the difference is that players are under NBA rules to a large extent that covers these type of infractions in-house. You seem to be saying the same thing more or less in your last post.


No. We are not arguing semantics. We are not saying more or less the same thing.

You are just having trouble understanding what "consent" means as a legal concept and how it applies.

I get your confusion: I can understand why its difficult to grasp the idea that an NBA player, by stepping onto the court, has legally consented to be clotheslined by another player, and yet the NBA can still sanction a player for clotheslining, even if it is legal.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:07 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
joeblow wrote:

It wasn't a tackle, it was a vicious clothes line to the facial area. The exact same action is a criminal offense off the court... I mean, how is that debatable?

With that said, we may be arguing semantics on the general point being made in the end. I said above that the difference is that players are under NBA rules to a large extent that covers these type of infractions in-house. You seem to be saying the same thing more or less in your last post.


No. We are not arguing semantics. We are not saying more or less the same thing.

You are just having trouble understanding what "consent" means as a legal concept and how it applies.

I get your confusion: I can understand why its difficult to grasp the idea that an NBA player, by stepping onto the court, has legally consented to be clotheslined by another player, and yet the NBA can still sanction a player for clotheslining, even if it is legal.


There is also confusion because of the rules. Back in 1984, McHale's clotheslining of Rambis was ruled a common foul. Today, it would be ruled a Flagrant-2, with McHale ejected AND - depending on the circumstances, jurisdiction, etc. - charged with criminal assault.

It hasn't happened in the NBA yet, but in HS and college, players have been charged with assault by the local authorities. It's also happened a couple times in the NHL. I'd imagine most DA's would not want to jump down that rabbit hole, but I could see a small market team with a DA up for re-election or looking to move to Congress pressing the case to make a name for him/herself. Of course the DA won't be going up against a run of the mill local public defender - they'll be facing a player with considerable resources (and likely the Union, as well). City & County lawyers don't tend to do well against defendants who can match or exceed the prosecutor's budget. If I recall correctly, in Kobe's case, the Eagle, CO, prosecutor had to petition the state for a few extra million to cover the potential costs of trying Kobe - and it never went to trial.
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