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KeepItRealOrElse
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Joined: 11 Oct 2012
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 Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | LakerMindLA wrote: | Looks like Bulls have started to play Denzel Valentine and he is producing.
I thought he could have been an interesting trade target. |
I agree. |
With Valentine playing more and with Coby White, do you think there's any chance at all that the Bulls would move LaVine? |
depends with a player like Lavine...think a franchise could easily look at him one of two ways - as a future allstar, or the scorer they don't want to build around....idk. |
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pjiddy
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:04 am Post subject: |
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Lavine is greatly overrated IMO. He's a 6th man that thinks he's a franchise player, which might be the most harmful kind of player to have. Whatever he gives you on offense he basically gives away on defense. Low IQ dude. Almost a cautionary tale for Kyle Kuzma. He's more athletically gifted, but he's limited in ways that prevent him from being an all-star--but he thinks the way to become one is to just score more. \
I was curious about how his numbers compare to other high usage guys. Of all wings with a 30% usage rate, it's the usual guys you expect:
Lebron, Luka, Trae, Harden, Kawhi, Giannis, Kyrie, Westbrook, Beal, D'Angelo and a (resurgent) Derrick Rose. All all-stars (at some point). And then there's Zach Lavine. What distinguishes him from that group? Those guys are all hovering around at least 30% assist rate (Lebron leads all at an eye-popping 51%, Luka right behind him at 48%)
Lavine is at 21%. He's basically Jamal Crawford if he dribbled even more air out of the ball. That's a 6th man.
I don't know how a team expects to win spending 20 mil a year on him. and i bet he'll expect a max on his next contract. |
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:40 am Post subject: |
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In a non specific system, I'd take this improving version of Lavine over DLo... although if Dlo was surrounded by Curry and Klay, I'd take him, cuz I think it'd accentuate his passing.
Looks to me like Zach is using his speed more, attacking the rim a bit more, or with more imposing of his will there. And i watched a BBallbreakdown vid that showed him playing solid defense. I might just be a sucker for the aesthetic of Zach's game, and points... but I wouldn't mind paying him near max.. it really depends on whether he's a solid defender or not. his DBPM is the best of his career fwiw, it's around 0 |
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drae
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Keep questioning Lavine's talent. The game after his coach pulled him and everybody was questioning his selfish play he dropped 49 on Charlotte when he went 13 from 17 from 3. Including the gamewinner.
Here's a list of everyone in the NBA who's ever shot 13 three pointers in a game:
Curry
Klay
Lavine
He plays solid D and can be explosive on offense while only 24. The Bulls would be foolish to move him.
Would be better to move the coach. Boylen is incapable of implementing an offense and likes to send out horrible line ups. They should get rid of him and move on. |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
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Joined: 06 Jun 2001
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| pjiddy wrote: | Lavine is greatly overrated IMO. He's a 6th man that thinks he's a franchise player, which might be the most harmful kind of player to have. Whatever he gives you on offense he basically gives away on defense. Low IQ dude. Almost a cautionary tale for Kyle Kuzma. He's more athletically gifted, but he's limited in ways that prevent him from being an all-star--but he thinks the way to become one is to just score more. \
I was curious about how his numbers compare to other high usage guys. Of all wings with a 30% usage rate, it's the usual guys you expect:
Lebron, Luka, Trae, Harden, Kawhi, Giannis, Kyrie, Westbrook, Beal, D'Angelo and a (resurgent) Derrick Rose. All all-stars (at some point). And then there's Zach Lavine. What distinguishes him from that group? Those guys are all hovering around at least 30% assist rate (Lebron leads all at an eye-popping 51%, Luka right behind him at 48%)
Lavine is at 21%. He's basically Jamal Crawford if he dribbled even more air out of the ball. That's a 6th man.
I don't know how a team expects to win spending 20 mil a year on him. and i bet he'll expect a max on his next contract. |
Usage rate needs to be looked at with another stat when using it to determine if a player's assist rate is too low, and if he's a ball hog. You have to look at how many of that player's field goals come off assists.
The reasons Zach's usage rate is so high while his assist rate is relatively low is half of his FGs are assisted, he actually does play a lot off the ball, much more than his usage suggests. Offensively, he's a poor man's Klay, but with better on-ball ability, he can do more than just attack a closeout.
Klay Thompson had a 25.6% Usage Rate and 10.5 Assist Rate last season. 80% of his made shots were off an assist. No one would say he's a ball hog, certainly. All of the players on your list make about 65-75% of their shots unassisted.*
EDIT: except for Beal, he's at 54%
Last edited by Laker_Dynasty_01 on Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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epak
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| drae wrote: | Keep questioning Lavine's talent. The game after his coach pulled him and everybody was questioning his selfish play he dropped 49 on Charlotte when he went 13 from 17 from 3. Including the gamewinner.
Here's a list of everyone in the NBA who's ever shot 13 three pointers in a game:
Curry
Klay
Lavine
He plays solid D and can be explosive on offense while only 24. The Bulls would be foolish to move him.
Would be better to move the coach. Boylen is incapable of implementing an offense and likes to send out horrible line ups. They should get rid of him and move on. |
He can shoot you out of a game as well.
Btw, has he improved his defense to solid?
At the beginning of the year it sucked. |
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drae
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Joined: 13 Nov 2018
Posts: 16144
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | drae wrote: | Keep questioning Lavine's talent. The game after his coach pulled him and everybody was questioning his selfish play he dropped 49 on Charlotte when he went 13 from 17 from 3. Including the gamewinner.
Here's a list of everyone in the NBA who's ever shot 13 three pointers in a game:
Curry
Klay
Lavine
He plays solid D and can be explosive on offense while only 24. The Bulls would be foolish to move him.
Would be better to move the coach. Boylen is incapable of implementing an offense and likes to send out horrible line ups. They should get rid of him and move on. |
He can shoot you out of a game as well.
Btw, has he improved his defense to solid?
At the beginning of the year it sucked. |
BBallbreakdown seems to think Lavine gives energy to try and be in the right place most of the time. He also ripped apart Boylen's assessment when he benched Lavine for "3 egregious defensive errors" against the Heat in his video here:
https://twitter.com/bballbreakdown/status/1198723027753586688
The trouble seems to be with Boylen. When Lavine single handedly won the game for Boylen against Charlotte the whole team went crazy, but when the coach tried to get involved the players all but told him to get the (bleep) away  (clip below)
https://twitter.com/_MarcusD3_/status/1198438166895742977 |
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Mamba81
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Joined: 19 Nov 2019
Posts: 2027
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| drae wrote: | Keep questioning Lavine's talent. The game after his coach pulled him and everybody was questioning his selfish play he dropped 49 on Charlotte when he went 13 from 17 from 3. Including the gamewinner.
Here's a list of everyone in the NBA who's ever shot 13 three pointers in a game:
Curry
Klay
Lavine
He plays solid D and can be explosive on offense while only 24. The Bulls would be foolish to move him.
Would be better to move the coach. Boylen is incapable of implementing an offense and likes to send out horrible line ups. They should get rid of him and move on. |
bruh why you always say 13 from 17 instead of 13 for 17 lmao
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Mamba81
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Joined: 19 Nov 2019
Posts: 2027
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Mamba81 wrote: | | drae wrote: | Keep questioning Lavine's talent. The game after his coach pulled him and everybody was questioning his selfish play he dropped 49 on Charlotte when he went 13 from 17 from 3. Including the gamewinner.
Here's a list of everyone in the NBA who's ever shot 13 three pointers in a game:
Curry
Klay
Lavine
He plays solid D and can be explosive on offense while only 24. The Bulls would be foolish to move him.
Would be better to move the coach. Boylen is incapable of implementing an offense and likes to send out horrible line ups. They should get rid of him and move on. |
bruh why you always say 13 from 17 instead of 13 for 17 lmao |
or you could say 13 of 17
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:40 am Post subject: |
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The Heat also has considered exploring ways to void his contract, according to a team source, but that is viewed as unlikely because it assuredly would trigger a legal battle with the players union, which wouldn’t want to establish a precedent for contracts being voided. Unless Waiters is willing to consider sacrificing some salary in a buyout – and he eventually might – the most realistic resolution in the interim could involve Waiters and the team agreeing for him to continue to be paid while staying away from the team. – via Miami Herald
Yeah, I know team chemistry....but he’s a Klutch klient doe. Maybe Bron/AD crack the whip and if dude still ain’t willing to change, drop kick his ass through the door. Low risk, high reward like Dwight with the only causality being Dudz or Daniels and Vogs hairline looking more like Caruso’s.
But alas...a resounding No coming in 3...2...
Haha
Btw speaking of Klutch klients...
Beasley, who will be a restricted free agent this summer, signed with mega agent Rich Paul this summer and wasn’t able to come to an agreement on an extension with Denver before the deadline in October, despite an aggressive offer from the Nuggets, according to a league source. Teams have already been making calls on Beasley, as The Athletic’s Shams Charania reported last week, and reasons for the interest are obvious. He just turned 23 years old and is a plus athlete who is shooting nearly 41 percent from 3-point range this season after shooting 40 percent over a full season last year. – via Nick Kosmider @ The Athletic
But Denver ain’t looking to do us any favors. |
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vasashi17+
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Rose, 31, has tried to maintain his key strengths, speed and quickness, while working to add new pieces to his game. As he gets older, he’ll have to have skills that translate to the ever-evolving NBA so that he can maintain his edge. “I’m not a jump shooter — I’m just a scorer. Whatever you give me, I’ll take it. I knew that having a jump shot prolongs your career. The older you get, you adapt to the game and that’s all I’m trying to do now,” he said. “If the game goes back to all lay-ups and midrange, I want to be able to do what Kobe (Bryant) did. He’s my example and the guy I look to and make sure I don’t change my game all the way.
“He didn’t change his game at all, but he was able to play 20 years and still be effective. That’s amazing to me. There aren’t too many people in NBA history, besides the greats, who can do that. I want to be considered one of them.”
– via Rod Beard @ Detroit News
Kobe fan and an absolute need for us.
Kuz/Cook for DRose + protected Detroit 1st (2020 or future)
I would love to hold onto Kuz to see how it works out for us, but behind Bron/AD, he's going to be limited and I'm not eager at all to move AD to the 5 to have Kuz more "comfortable"...so Mr. Flintstone goes back home, we get a playmaker/3rd option in Drose who also keeps Rondo fresh to become playoff 'Do when the time comes. Hopefully we can extract a 20-30th pick out of it too.
Last edited by vasashi17+ on Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| BobbyB wrote: | One weakeness ive noticed in the Bucks is there lack of a mobile Center.
For how Great of a spacer Brook and Even Robin Lopez can be. They lack the ability to switch out on screens and cover the perimeter defensively.
I think if the Lakers put AD at the 5 and space the floor like they have been the Bucks will have a-lot of trouble defending us.
If AD can hit his 3's again lakers can win.
Beating the Bucks comes down to limiting turnovers, Getting back in transition and not letting the others beat you. |
The Bucks (or any other team) hope that we put AD on the perimeter and let him shoot 3’s.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25092
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | BobbyB wrote: | One weakeness ive noticed in the Bucks is there lack of a mobile Center.
For how Great of a spacer Brook and Even Robin Lopez can be. They lack the ability to switch out on screens and cover the perimeter defensively.
I think if the Lakers put AD at the 5 and space the floor like they have been the Bucks will have a-lot of trouble defending us.
If AD can hit his 3's again lakers can win.
Beating the Bucks comes down to limiting turnovers, Getting back in transition and not letting the others beat you. |
The Bucks (or any other team) hope that we put AD on the perimeter and let him shoot 3’s. |
Good, so you are concurring with Lakers coaching staffs, who also hope that AD shoots about 5 threes per game |
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rogers49
Star Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 1182
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| vasashi17+ wrote: | The Heat also has considered exploring ways to void his contract, according to a team source, but that is viewed as unlikely because it assuredly would trigger a legal battle with the players union, which wouldn’t want to establish a precedent for contracts being voided. Unless Waiters is willing to consider sacrificing some salary in a buyout – and he eventually might – the most realistic resolution in the interim could involve Waiters and the team agreeing for him to continue to be paid while staying away from the team. – via Miami Herald
Yeah, I know team chemistry....but he’s a Klutch klient doe. Maybe Bron/AD crack the whip and if dude still ain’t willing to change, drop kick his ass through the door. Low risk, high reward like Dwight with the only causality being Dudz or Daniels and Vogs hairline looking more like Caruso’s.
But alas...a resounding No coming in 3...2...
Haha
Btw speaking of Klutch klients...
Beasley, who will be a restricted free agent this summer, signed with mega agent Rich Paul this summer and wasn’t able to come to an agreement on an extension with Denver before the deadline in October, despite an aggressive offer from the Nuggets, according to a league source. Teams have already been making calls on Beasley, as The Athletic’s Shams Charania reported last week, and reasons for the interest are obvious. He just turned 23 years old and is a plus athlete who is shooting nearly 41 percent from 3-point range this season after shooting 40 percent over a full season last year. – via Nick Kosmider @ The Athletic
But Denver ain’t looking to do us any favors. |
No, no and no.
Miami is desperate to cut him and we should give Waiters another chance?
Never ever. |
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144474
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | BobbyB wrote: | One weakeness ive noticed in the Bucks is there lack of a mobile Center.
For how Great of a spacer Brook and Even Robin Lopez can be. They lack the ability to switch out on screens and cover the perimeter defensively.
I think if the Lakers put AD at the 5 and space the floor like they have been the Bucks will have a-lot of trouble defending us.
If AD can hit his 3's again lakers can win.
Beating the Bucks comes down to limiting turnovers, Getting back in transition and not letting the others beat you. |
The Bucks (or any other team) hope that we put AD on the perimeter and let him shoot 3’s. |
Good, so you are concurring with Lakers coaching staffs, who also hope that AD shoots about 5 threes per game |
If I am the opponent I want him shooting 15
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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strong9
Star Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Posts: 3283
Location: so many places
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | governator wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | BobbyB wrote: | One weakeness ive noticed in the Bucks is there lack of a mobile Center.
For how Great of a spacer Brook and Even Robin Lopez can be. They lack the ability to switch out on screens and cover the perimeter defensively.
I think if the Lakers put AD at the 5 and space the floor like they have been the Bucks will have a-lot of trouble defending us.
If AD can hit his 3's again lakers can win.
Beating the Bucks comes down to limiting turnovers, Getting back in transition and not letting the others beat you. |
The Bucks (or any other team) hope that we put AD on the perimeter and let him shoot 3’s. |
Good, so you are concurring with Lakers coaching staffs, who also hope that AD shoots about 5 threes per game |
If I am the opponent I want him shooting 15 |
That doesn't happen. Maybe they neutralize him in the post and he has to rely on his outside shooters to open up the post, but he doesn't take that many 3 pointers. |
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pjiddy
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Posts: 29077
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | Lavine is greatly overrated IMO. He's a 6th man that thinks he's a franchise player, which might be the most harmful kind of player to have. Whatever he gives you on offense he basically gives away on defense. Low IQ dude. Almost a cautionary tale for Kyle Kuzma. He's more athletically gifted, but he's limited in ways that prevent him from being an all-star--but he thinks the way to become one is to just score more. \
I was curious about how his numbers compare to other high usage guys. Of all wings with a 30% usage rate, it's the usual guys you expect:
Lebron, Luka, Trae, Harden, Kawhi, Giannis, Kyrie, Westbrook, Beal, D'Angelo and a (resurgent) Derrick Rose. All all-stars (at some point). And then there's Zach Lavine. What distinguishes him from that group? Those guys are all hovering around at least 30% assist rate (Lebron leads all at an eye-popping 51%, Luka right behind him at 48%)
Lavine is at 21%. He's basically Jamal Crawford if he dribbled even more air out of the ball. That's a 6th man.
I don't know how a team expects to win spending 20 mil a year on him. and i bet he'll expect a max on his next contract. |
Usage rate needs to be looked at with another stat when using it to determine if a player's assist rate is too low, and if he's a ball hog. You have to look at how many of that player's field goals come off assists.
The reasons Zach's usage rate is so high while his assist rate is relatively low is half of his FGs are assisted, he actually does play a lot off the ball, much more than his usage suggests. Offensively, he's a poor man's Klay, but with better on-ball ability, he can do more than just attack a closeout.
Klay Thompson had a 25.6% Usage Rate and 10.5 Assist Rate last season. 80% of his made shots were off an assist. No one would say he's a ball hog, certainly. All of the players on your list make about 65-75% of their shots unassisted.*
EDIT: except for Beal, he's at 54% |
That's fair. Although Klay Thompson usually hovers around 60% TS%, which is elite for a wing. Lavine is at 56% which is a little closer to average (imo, it's like shooting 40% vs 36% from 3).
And Klay is one of the best defenders in the NBA. Lavine is one of the worst. Redounds to my point that he gives away about as much as he gives. |
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drae
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Posts: 16144
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Mamba81 wrote: | bruh why you always say 13 from 17 instead of 13 for 17 lmao
or you could say 13 of 17 |
'With' it is 
Shot 13 with 17 attempts  |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Any chance we can get Joe Ingles? Dude just looks like he is meant to be a Laker. |
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LakerSD
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Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23788
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | Any chance we can get Joe Ingles? Dude just looks like he is meant to be a Laker. |
He is looking pretty washed this season. |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSD wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | Any chance we can get Joe Ingles? Dude just looks like he is meant to be a Laker. |
He is looking pretty washed this season. |
Could it be because the Jazz are over-using him? On his team he wouldn’t even be the 4th option, it seems like the Jazz are asking to much from him and he can’t do what’s expected of him. |
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drae
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Posts: 16144
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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*Clock ticks over, date changed to the 15th*
*Tumbleweed rolls across the landscape*
Been pretty quiet on the trade front this year |
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drae
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Doncic out with a "moderate" ankle sprain 
That's 4-6 weeks
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| drae wrote: | Doncic out with a "moderate" ankle sprain
That's 4-6 weeks
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I read 2 weeks.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | LakerSD wrote: | | Inspector Gadget wrote: | | Any chance we can get Joe Ingles? Dude just looks like he is meant to be a Laker. |
He is looking pretty washed this season. |
Could it be because the Jazz are over-using him? On his team he wouldn’t even be the 4th option, it seems like the Jazz are asking to much from him and he can’t do what’s expected of him. |
Maybe. He just looks slow and a step behind, yeah he’s not the fastest guy but still...also he looks a step behind with mental part of game. |
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