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Sentient Meat
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 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Brook wouldn't have asked management to move Zubac for one.
McGee started out well, ran out of gas for awhile when he got pneumonia, then stat stuffed during garbage time.
I like McGee, but Brook would have been better over the long haul and spread the floor for LBJ, BI, Kuzma. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Did JaV get better offers than the minimum from other teams?
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:00 am Post subject: |
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I just liked that we would have kept Brook's Bird Rights. I was one of the first to advocate that we keep Brook for the room exception one year, then pay him out in 2019. Which is pretty much what's happening now.  (except we don't get his Bird rights).
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Cochese
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Not keeping Brook made no sense, especially at that price. |
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matrixskillz
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:31 am Post subject: |
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I was all for keeping Brook. He would have been the floor spacing big LBJ needs and sadly, probably our best 3 pt shooter.
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:36 am Post subject: |
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I felt Brook had an OK season.
He started off great. I wonder if that's what we remember.
Without looking, what do you think were his numbers, including minutes played? And for those that say, "it's not about the numbers, it's about him spacing the floor," that's fine. But what do you think his numbers were? |
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Did JaV get better offers than the minimum from other teams? |
I dont know did he? |
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Brook wouldn't have asked management to move Zubac for one.
McGee started out well, ran out of gas for awhile when he got pneumonia, then stat stuffed during garbage time.
I like McGee, but Brook would have been better over the long haul and spread the floor for LBJ, BI, Kuzma. |
Did McGee as the FO to remove Zubac? And they listened to McGee?
I hadn't read that. But that's really crazy. When did this come out?
Brook would have spread the floor yep. I think we got a bit suckered into thinking McGee had a much better perimeter defense than Brook. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Brook wouldn't have asked management to move Zubac for one.
McGee started out well, ran out of gas for awhile when he got pneumonia, then stat stuffed during garbage time.
I like McGee, but Brook would have been better over the long haul and spread the floor for LBJ, BI, Kuzma. |
Did McGee as the FO to remove Zubac? And they listened to McGee?
I hadn't read that. But that's really crazy. When did this come out?
Brook would have spread the floor yep. I think we got a bit suckered into thinking McGee had a much better perimeter defense than Brook. |
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/aqofx6/brad_turner_of_the_la_times_on_the_zubac_trade/ |
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Brook wouldn't have asked management to move Zubac for one.
McGee started out well, ran out of gas for awhile when he got pneumonia, then stat stuffed during garbage time.
I like McGee, but Brook would have been better over the long haul and spread the floor for LBJ, BI, Kuzma. |
Did McGee as the FO to remove Zubac? And they listened to McGee?
I hadn't read that. But that's really crazy. When did this come out?
Brook would have spread the floor yep. I think we got a bit suckered into thinking McGee had a much better perimeter defense than Brook. |
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/aqofx6/brad_turner_of_the_la_times_on_the_zubac_trade/ |
| Quote: | | Brad Turner of the LA Times on the Zubac trade: "They couldn't afford to keep Zubac this summer. The biggest reason is they really wanted Michael Beasley gone. Another factor in the trade was Javale McGee was unhappy with his play time and not starting." |
Thanks for the link.
So there's 3 reasons.
1. Couldn't afford (legit or not, but it's a reason in their mind)
2. Rid Beas
3. McGee unhappy with playing time
But I dont get how McGee being unhappy with playing time meant he wanted Zubac traded. I'm sure having Zubac on the team and Zubac playing less would have been just as satisfying.
I'd have to disagree a bit with your take on that.
Last edited by epak on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Did JaV get better offers than the minimum from other teams? |
I dont know did he? |
Probably not. Which is why your question about playing time/role comes in.
But even with Brook, given how Luke coached him, Jav would have essentially split the minutes with him.
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Did JaV get better offers than the minimum from other teams? |
I dont know did he? |
Probably not. Which is why your question about playing time/role comes in.
But even with Brook, given how Luke coached him, Jav would have essentially split the minutes with him. |
Probably not? I mean. Then probably? Anyway...
After reading @Sentient's post about McGee being unhappy with his playing time, are you sure he would have come here?
Last edited by epak on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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AirKobe8
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | The next rebound that Brook gets will be his first. I feel bad for Boogie. He is done and is never going to get paid (if he didn't get hurt he would have clearly been a max player). |
That's a wrong way to look at it.
Plenty of data that shows guys like him, Hibbert, are/were effective box outs that helped the TEAM garner defensive rebounds. He may not put up massive rebounding stats but why do you think Jules loved rebounding next to Brook? |
Sorry but 4 boards per game is a disgrace. Plenty of centers effectively box out which not only garners rebounds for the team, but themselves as well. I understand he was not down low offensively, which hurt his totals. However, four rebounds a game is ridiculous. Your analogy about Randle doesn't really support your claim. He had his lowest rebounding #'s of his career playing next to him (although his minutes were lower). I like BL (especially the fact that he seemed to enjoy being a Laker), but he played a little bit like a whimp to be honest. |
I don't have the stats in front of me, but Brook regularly is in the top tier of bigs who box out and has teammates with improved rebound % as a result.
You can't just stare at traditional box scores and assign traditional roles for centers today in the NBA. |
The Bucks went from the worse rebounding team in the league in 2017-18 to the best rebounding team in the NBA in 2018-19.
Of course there's more to that, but there's no way you get to that level if your starting center isn't a part of that. His boxing out is very underrated.
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Brook wouldn't have asked management to move Zubac for one.
McGee started out well, ran out of gas for awhile when he got pneumonia, then stat stuffed during garbage time.
I like McGee, but Brook would have been better over the long haul and spread the floor for LBJ, BI, Kuzma. |
Did McGee as the FO to remove Zubac? And they listened to McGee?
I hadn't read that. But that's really crazy. When did this come out?
Brook would have spread the floor yep. I think we got a bit suckered into thinking McGee had a much better perimeter defense than Brook. |
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/aqofx6/brad_turner_of_the_la_times_on_the_zubac_trade/ |
| Quote: | | Brad Turner of the LA Times on the Zubac trade: "They couldn't afford to keep Zubac this summer. The biggest reason is they really wanted Michael Beasley gone. Another factor in the trade was Javale McGee was unhappy with his play time and not starting." |
So there's 3 reasons.
1. Couldn't afford (legit or not, but it's a reason in their mind)
2. Rid Beas
3. McGee unhappy with playing time
But I dont get how McGee being unhappy with playing time meant he wanted Zubac traded. I'm sure having Zubac on the team and Zubac playing less would have been just as satisfying.
Thanks for the link though. |
Fair enough... I jumped a step ahead with my conclusion so it was probably unfair to say it like that.
Should have just said McGee's unhappiness was a factor in getting Zu traded.
Think Brook is a not only a former all star who could spread the floor and provide interior defense but a more chill, lower maintenance teammate.
If McGee signs for cheap this summer, I suppose you could argue it was worth it.
If we overpay for him, or he goes somewhere else then it wasn't. |
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:53 am Post subject: |
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@Sentient, Sorry I had edited it.
I did appreciate the link. I shouldn't have said it that way though. |
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AirKobe8
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Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 8586
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | epak wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Brook wouldn't have asked management to move Zubac for one.
McGee started out well, ran out of gas for awhile when he got pneumonia, then stat stuffed during garbage time.
I like McGee, but Brook would have been better over the long haul and spread the floor for LBJ, BI, Kuzma. |
Did McGee as the FO to remove Zubac? And they listened to McGee?
I hadn't read that. But that's really crazy. When did this come out?
Brook would have spread the floor yep. I think we got a bit suckered into thinking McGee had a much better perimeter defense than Brook. |
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/aqofx6/brad_turner_of_the_la_times_on_the_zubac_trade/ |
| Quote: | | Brad Turner of the LA Times on the Zubac trade: "They couldn't afford to keep Zubac this summer. The biggest reason is they really wanted Michael Beasley gone. Another factor in the trade was Javale McGee was unhappy with his play time and not starting." |
Thanks for the link.
So there's 3 reasons.
1. Couldn't afford (legit or not, but it's a reason in their mind)
2. Rid Beas
3. McGee unhappy with playing time
But I dont get how McGee being unhappy with playing time meant he wanted Zubac traded. I'm sure having Zubac on the team and Zubac playing less would have been just as satisfying.
I'd have to disagree a bit with your take on that. |
This take was widely discussed back then, but I never really believed it. If the FO traded Zubac because of McGee, then why did they bring another center in the deal (Muscala?). And why did they go after Kanter at the buyout market? This just doesn't make sense.
I think they did that trade because they thought Muscala could be a spacing big. They went after shooting in those deals (Bullock and Muscala), but as usual, did not have the proper data/knowledge to proper evaluate value.
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| AirKobe8 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | The next rebound that Brook gets will be his first. I feel bad for Boogie. He is done and is never going to get paid (if he didn't get hurt he would have clearly been a max player). |
That's a wrong way to look at it.
Plenty of data that shows guys like him, Hibbert, are/were effective box outs that helped the TEAM garner defensive rebounds. He may not put up massive rebounding stats but why do you think Jules loved rebounding next to Brook? |
Sorry but 4 boards per game is a disgrace. Plenty of centers effectively box out which not only garners rebounds for the team, but themselves as well. I understand he was not down low offensively, which hurt his totals. However, four rebounds a game is ridiculous. Your analogy about Randle doesn't really support your claim. He had his lowest rebounding #'s of his career playing next to him (although his minutes were lower). I like BL (especially the fact that he seemed to enjoy being a Laker), but he played a little bit like a whimp to be honest. |
I don't have the stats in front of me, but Brook regularly is in the top tier of bigs who box out and has teammates with improved rebound % as a result.
You can't just stare at traditional box scores and assign traditional roles for centers today in the NBA. |
The Bucks went from the worse rebounding team in the league in 2017-18 to the best rebounding team in the NBA in 2018-19.
Of course there's more to that, but there's no way you get to that level if your starting center isn't a part of that. His boxing out is very underrated. |
Bucks went from 28th in reb% (48.0) to 5th (51.6).
The main jump was in dreb% 70.9% to 75.7%.
I'm pretty sure Brook was a factor in that. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Did JaV get better offers than the minimum from other teams? |
I dont know did he? |
Probably not. Which is why your question about playing time/role comes in.
But even with Brook, given how Luke coached him, Jav would have essentially split the minutes with him. |
Probably not? I mean. Then probably? Anyway...
After reading @Sentient's post about McGee being unhappy with his playing time, are you sure he would have come here? |
maybe not but I'd rather have Brook instead of JaV anyways? 
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| AirKobe8 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | The next rebound that Brook gets will be his first. I feel bad for Boogie. He is done and is never going to get paid (if he didn't get hurt he would have clearly been a max player). |
That's a wrong way to look at it.
Plenty of data that shows guys like him, Hibbert, are/were effective box outs that helped the TEAM garner defensive rebounds. He may not put up massive rebounding stats but why do you think Jules loved rebounding next to Brook? |
Sorry but 4 boards per game is a disgrace. Plenty of centers effectively box out which not only garners rebounds for the team, but themselves as well. I understand he was not down low offensively, which hurt his totals. However, four rebounds a game is ridiculous. Your analogy about Randle doesn't really support your claim. He had his lowest rebounding #'s of his career playing next to him (although his minutes were lower). I like BL (especially the fact that he seemed to enjoy being a Laker), but he played a little bit like a whimp to be honest. |
I don't have the stats in front of me, but Brook regularly is in the top tier of bigs who box out and has teammates with improved rebound % as a result.
You can't just stare at traditional box scores and assign traditional roles for centers today in the NBA. |
The Bucks went from the worse rebounding team in the league in 2017-18 to the best rebounding team in the NBA in 2018-19.
Of course there's more to that, but there's no way you get to that level if your starting center isn't a part of that. His boxing out is very underrated. |
I cringe when people offer the traditional box score/"no man enough" insights about Brook. That was probably Magic. "Center who shoots 3s and doesn't average 13 rebounds a game? GTFOH." 
Again, my plan was to sign Brook to the room exception (which he basically did)...and then use his Bird rights to sign him over the cap in 2019. Would have been perfect.
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | AirKobe8 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | The next rebound that Brook gets will be his first. I feel bad for Boogie. He is done and is never going to get paid (if he didn't get hurt he would have clearly been a max player). |
That's a wrong way to look at it.
Plenty of data that shows guys like him, Hibbert, are/were effective box outs that helped the TEAM garner defensive rebounds. He may not put up massive rebounding stats but why do you think Jules loved rebounding next to Brook? |
Sorry but 4 boards per game is a disgrace. Plenty of centers effectively box out which not only garners rebounds for the team, but themselves as well. I understand he was not down low offensively, which hurt his totals. However, four rebounds a game is ridiculous. Your analogy about Randle doesn't really support your claim. He had his lowest rebounding #'s of his career playing next to him (although his minutes were lower). I like BL (especially the fact that he seemed to enjoy being a Laker), but he played a little bit like a whimp to be honest. |
I don't have the stats in front of me, but Brook regularly is in the top tier of bigs who box out and has teammates with improved rebound % as a result.
You can't just stare at traditional box scores and assign traditional roles for centers today in the NBA. |
The Bucks went from the worse rebounding team in the league in 2017-18 to the best rebounding team in the NBA in 2018-19.
Of course there's more to that, but there's no way you get to that level if your starting center isn't a part of that. His boxing out is very underrated. |
Bucks went from 28th in reb% (48.0) to 5th (51.6).
The main jump was in dreb% 70.9% to 75.7%.
I'm pretty sure Brook was a factor in that. |
But here's the biggest reason I'd credit the rebounding increase:
Defensive field goal %:
2017-18: 46.8% (rank 20th)
2018-19: 43.3% (rank 1st)
I say the defense rocked for them this year. Led to more rebounding opportunities and more rebounds. But I do give Brook credit for his contests and boxing out. |
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Did JaV get better offers than the minimum from other teams? |
I dont know did he? |
Probably not. Which is why your question about playing time/role comes in.
But even with Brook, given how Luke coached him, Jav would have essentially split the minutes with him. |
Probably not? I mean. Then probably? Anyway...
After reading @Sentient's post about McGee being unhappy with his playing time, are you sure he would have come here? |
maybe not but I'd rather have Brook instead of JaV anyways? |
If that's your stance, why would you care if McGee would have gotten more than min elsewhere? That's all you needed to say, you'd rather have had Brook. IMO, I dont think he was that much better than McGee. |
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AirKobe8
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Posts: 8586
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | AirKobe8 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | RI Laker wrote: | | The next rebound that Brook gets will be his first. I feel bad for Boogie. He is done and is never going to get paid (if he didn't get hurt he would have clearly been a max player). |
That's a wrong way to look at it.
Plenty of data that shows guys like him, Hibbert, are/were effective box outs that helped the TEAM garner defensive rebounds. He may not put up massive rebounding stats but why do you think Jules loved rebounding next to Brook? |
Sorry but 4 boards per game is a disgrace. Plenty of centers effectively box out which not only garners rebounds for the team, but themselves as well. I understand he was not down low offensively, which hurt his totals. However, four rebounds a game is ridiculous. Your analogy about Randle doesn't really support your claim. He had his lowest rebounding #'s of his career playing next to him (although his minutes were lower). I like BL (especially the fact that he seemed to enjoy being a Laker), but he played a little bit like a whimp to be honest. |
I don't have the stats in front of me, but Brook regularly is in the top tier of bigs who box out and has teammates with improved rebound % as a result.
You can't just stare at traditional box scores and assign traditional roles for centers today in the NBA. |
The Bucks went from the worse rebounding team in the league in 2017-18 to the best rebounding team in the NBA in 2018-19.
Of course there's more to that, but there's no way you get to that level if your starting center isn't a part of that. His boxing out is very underrated. |
I cringe when people offer the traditional box score/"no man enough" insights about Brook. That was probably Magic. "Center who shoots 3s and doesn't average 13 rebounds a game? GTFOH."
Again, my plan was to sign Brook to the room exception (which he basically did)...and then use his Bird rights to sign him over the cap in 2019. Would have been perfect. |
Yeah. I also think the whole "we want tough players" also made Magic's mind. Brook's laid back style and personality made Magic's poor judgement come out. He's not a soft player IMO, but if you're not really deep into the game (and it never seemed like Magic was), you'd probably think he is.
Do you think Magic probably never trades for Gasol in 08? I just hate these major biases in how executives judge talent, specially guys like Magic who clearly can't relate to players who aren't similar to what he or his teammates were in the 80s.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Brook was such a self-inflicted wound. He wanted to stay, and would have been cheap (give him what we gave Lance). |
How would you compare Brook's season to McGee's?
And is your hypothetical about having both those guys? Would McGee have come if Brook was here? |
Did JaV get better offers than the minimum from other teams? |
I dont know did he? |
Probably not. Which is why your question about playing time/role comes in.
But even with Brook, given how Luke coached him, Jav would have essentially split the minutes with him. |
Probably not? I mean. Then probably? Anyway...
After reading @Sentient's post about McGee being unhappy with his playing time, are you sure he would have come here? |
maybe not but I'd rather have Brook instead of JaV anyways? |
If that's your stance, why would you care if McGee would have gotten more than min elsewhere? That's all you needed to say, you'd rather have had Brook. IMO, I dont think he was that much better than McGee. |
I beg to differ. On a team that was so desperate for shooting, Brook > JaV.
I honestly think you could get both Brook and JaV. And JaV would have gotten 20+ mpg which was a big increase from the Warriors.
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Killakobe81
Star Player
Joined: 19 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Hopefully, this latest injury will end all the "lets sign boogie!!" nonsense around here ... |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Killakobe81 wrote: | | Hopefully, this latest injury will end all the "lets sign boogie!!" nonsense around here ... |
One would hope.
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