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DancingBarry
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Joined: 07 Sep 2001
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 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Harlemlakerfan wrote: | | LakerSD wrote: | https://twitter.com/nbcsphilly/status/1440389399645081608?s=21
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Somebody is BIG mad!!! |
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Car54
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 14424
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Are you saying you’re ok with how Doc and Embiid handled the loss? |
I’m saying that they didn’t do anything sufficient to warrant Simmons’ hissy fit. Oh no! They bruised his widdle ego. How dare anyone throw shade at him after he embarrassed himself on the big stage? |
If your boss called you mediocre during a company meeting in front of everyone would you want to continue your work relationship?
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digcom99
Sixth Man
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Are you saying you’re ok with how Doc and Embiid handled the loss? |
I’m saying that they didn’t do anything sufficient to warrant Simmons’ hissy fit. Oh no! They bruised his widdle ego. How dare anyone throw shade at him after he embarrassed himself on the big stage? |
If your boss called you mediocre during a company meeting in front of everyone would you want to continue your work relationship? |
If my boss was paying me an insane amount of money and I publicly embarrassed myself and the company because I couldn’t perform a basic task (in this case, dunking a ball when I’m under the basket), you bet that I would take the tongue lashing like a man and work my ass off to earn back the trust of my employers and co workers.
Last edited by digcom99 on Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| digcom99 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Are you saying you’re ok with how Doc and Embiid handled the loss? |
I’m saying that they didn’t do anything sufficient to warrant Simmons’ hissy fit. Oh no! They bruised his widdle ego. How dare anyone throw shade at him after he embarrassed himself on the big stage? |
If your boss called you mediocre during a company meeting in front of everyone would you want to continue your work relationship? |
If my boss was paying me an insane amount of money and I publicly embarrassed myself and the company because I couldn’t perform a basic task, I would the take the tongue lashing like a man and work my ass off to earn back the trust of my employers and co workers. |
This, basically.
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | joeblow wrote: |
Think about it: there are sometimes flagrant fouls committed so egregiously that if someone else did it in "real life", they'd be arrested. With the CBA they get fined/suspended instead. |
As I understand it, what you're talking about here has nothing to do with the CBA but state and federal laws about consent. When someone agrees to play a sport, they effectively consent to physical contact consistent with the rules of the game. By stepping onto the court, the players consent to the possibilities of being fouled. Generally, even a "flagrant foul" falls within the parameters of the physical conduct players have agreed to, legally speaking.
Theoretically (and in reality) players have been arrested and sued for physical contact that goes outside the bounds of the sport. For example, Rudy Tomjanovich sued Kermit Washington for the famous incident where Washington punched him during the game, and they settled out of court. Additional, players have been arrested for attacking referees, since referees do not implicitly consent to physical contact with players to the same degree that players agree to contact with other players. |
Right. You aren't immune to criminal prosecution just because you're playing a sport. The question is the scope of the consent. There have been a couple hockey players prosecuted for doing things that went well outside of consent.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | I wasn't saying they could withhold the payment from Simmons. However, if they are giving him payment for half the season in advance and he refuses to play, they might be able to sue him to get the money back from him.
There are certainly precedence for doing that. But someone who knows the law of this area better than you and I would have to comment on that.
I have no idea how this is going to end for the 76ers or Simmons. I'm just enjoying the show of it all |
I really don't know the answer to this. This is not an ordinary breach of contract situation. It's governed by the contract, the CBA, and the league Constitution, and the outcome would probably be decided by an arbitrator. I know generally that the Sixers could suspend him and impose a hefty fine, or that they can give him smaller fines without a suspension. I don't know whether the Sixers are obligated to make the 50% payment if he no-shows for training camp. I'd need to read the documents to answer that, and the contract is not publicly available.
What I am hearing is that the owners as a group are fed up with hold outs and trade demands by guys with big contracts. There may be pressure on Adam Silver to make an example out of Simmons, but naturally Silver is not going to want to do this. Nonetheless, if the Sixers don't want to suspend Simmons, Silver may have the power to bring down the hammer on him. Again, I'd have to go read the CBA and Constitution to figure out what authority he has, and it's not worth the time unless it looks like this might really happen.
In these sorts of matters, my sympathies usually lie with employees and labor. In this case, I've gotten sick of prima donna athletes who sign big contracts then go into a hissy fit when their ego gets bruised. The Deshaun Watson thing left a bad taste in my mouth. He threw a hissy fit because he didn't feel that he got input into the team's hiring of a new general manager. Seriously? Ben Simmons is throwing a hissy fit because he exposed all of his weaknesses in the playoffs, made an iconic bad play, and got called out by his coach and teammate. So now he won't play with those meanies any more. I am not one of the Boomers who likes to belittle the younger generations. I have too clear of recollection of what we were really like when we were young. But Jeez, this plays right into the stereotype of the "participation trophy" generations. |
That summarizes it well. I don't know what the CBA and contracts say about this, and whether they could go to arbitration to recover the salary.
I agree with you on the main point. Simmons signed a contract that pays him an obscene amount of money. He should suck it up and be a professional. It's a warning sign for his future career that he is pulling this stunt rather than owning up to his failures.
He wants his freedom? Offer to cancel the contract. Never will happen, of course. |
The anger is misplaced. It's just the business of sports:
Babe Ruth (held out until he was traded to the Yankees - I know you'll want a link for that https://www.ozy.com/true-and-stories/when-babe-ruth-wanted-a-raise-this-was-what-he-did/94538/)
John Elway - refused to report to Indianapolis
Eli Manning - refused to report to San Diego
Mark Messier - held out and forced a trade to the NY Rangers
Rick Barry - broke legal contracts in the NBA AND ABA, held out from a team coached by his father-in-law
And on and on.
People who have leverage use it. There's always the knee jerk "they get millions to play a kid's game and should be grateful" reaction - but few discuss the oligarch's and robber barons who own the teams and make windfall profits.
As to the "it's a valid contract" argument - depends on your leverage. One very famous action hero star signed a 3-picture deal and then refused to do the 2nd picture until they redid his contract. Kim Basinger pulled out of Boxing Helena, was sued for breach of contract and lost. |
Sure, people will use whatever leverage they can. At the same time, it's perfectly fine for the general public to think an athlete is a big baby for how he conducts himself in such situations. |
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Car54
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Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 14424
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| digcom99 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Are you saying you’re ok with how Doc and Embiid handled the loss? |
I’m saying that they didn’t do anything sufficient to warrant Simmons’ hissy fit. Oh no! They bruised his widdle ego. How dare anyone throw shade at him after he embarrassed himself on the big stage? |
If your boss called you mediocre during a company meeting in front of everyone would you want to continue your work relationship? |
If my boss was paying me an insane amount of money and I publicly embarrassed myself and the company because I couldn’t perform a basic task (in this case, dunking a ball when I’m under the basket), you bet that I would take the tongue lashing like a man and work my ass off to earn back the trust of my employers and co workers. |
Bruh stop it. I don’t care how much they pay you. You’re not gonna want to continue working there after being disrespected. Don’t sit here and tell that lie when you can get paid the same amount at another employer. And two the only reason they want him to play is so they can increase his trade value which they helped lower. He got paid this insane amount based on what he could do on the floor not what he can’t do. So that doesn’t give them the right to disrespect him. I can tell you never played team sports because of ignorance on comrade
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Nash Vegas
Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 7239
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:24 am Post subject: |
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So this is K-pop? Pretty girls dancing and singing with Lakers apparel? I can get behind it.
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digcom99
Sixth Man
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | digcom99 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Are you saying you’re ok with how Doc and Embiid handled the loss? |
I’m saying that they didn’t do anything sufficient to warrant Simmons’ hissy fit. Oh no! They bruised his widdle ego. How dare anyone throw shade at him after he embarrassed himself on the big stage? |
If your boss called you mediocre during a company meeting in front of everyone would you want to continue your work relationship? |
If my boss was paying me an insane amount of money and I publicly embarrassed myself and the company because I couldn’t perform a basic task (in this case, dunking a ball when I’m under the basket), you bet that I would take the tongue lashing like a man and work my ass off to earn back the trust of my employers and co workers. |
Bruh stop it. I don’t care how much they pay you. You’re not gonna want to continue working there after being disrespected. Don’t sit here and tell that lie when you can get paid the same amount at another employer. And two the only reason they want him to play is so they can increase his trade value which they helped lower. He got paid this insane amount based on what he could do on the floor not what he can’t do. So that doesn’t give them the right to disrespect him. I can tell you never played team sports because of ignorance on comrade |
I actually have been called out in a big group meeting (about 80 people) for a mistake I made. I apologized and promised to work harder. And I make tiny fraction of what Simmons makes. That’s why his tantrum hits home with me. I take pride in my work and own up to my screw ups. I’m not going to take the ball and go home cuz my feelings got hurt.
And yes, I still work for the company and have kicked ass since
Last edited by digcom99 on Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:32 am; edited 2 times in total |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| digcom99 wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | Are you saying you’re ok with how Doc and Embiid handled the loss? |
I’m saying that they didn’t do anything sufficient to warrant Simmons’ hissy fit. Oh no! They bruised his widdle ego. How dare anyone throw shade at him after he embarrassed himself on the big stage? |
If your boss called you mediocre during a company meeting in front of everyone would you want to continue your work relationship? |
If my boss was paying me an insane amount of money and I publicly embarrassed myself and the company because I couldn’t perform a basic task (in this case, dunking a ball when I’m under the basket), you bet that I would take the tongue lashing like a man and work my ass off to earn back the trust of my employers and co workers. |
There's one other element: Simmons is a performer, and being publically critiqued and criticized is an inherent part of his profession.
Obviously, the specifics of any situation is going to affect how the general public views the performer's conduct.
In my view, Simmons is just being a big baby, and I don't have any sympathy for him. |
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Nash Vegas
Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 7239
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:32 am Post subject: |
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All this Ben Simmons talk, let’s sign James Ennis and call it an off season.
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Chick's Magic Johnson
Starting Rotation
Joined: 25 Mar 2016
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | I wasn't saying they could withhold the payment from Simmons. However, if they are giving him payment for half the season in advance and he refuses to play, they might be able to sue him to get the money back from him.
There are certainly precedence for doing that. But someone who knows the law of this area better than you and I would have to comment on that.
I have no idea how this is going to end for the 76ers or Simmons. I'm just enjoying the show of it all |
I really don't know the answer to this. This is not an ordinary breach of contract situation. It's governed by the contract, the CBA, and the league Constitution, and the outcome would probably be decided by an arbitrator. I know generally that the Sixers could suspend him and impose a hefty fine, or that they can give him smaller fines without a suspension. I don't know whether the Sixers are obligated to make the 50% payment if he no-shows for training camp. I'd need to read the documents to answer that, and the contract is not publicly available.
What I am hearing is that the owners as a group are fed up with hold outs and trade demands by guys with big contracts. There may be pressure on Adam Silver to make an example out of Simmons, but naturally Silver is not going to want to do this. Nonetheless, if the Sixers don't want to suspend Simmons, Silver may have the power to bring down the hammer on him. Again, I'd have to go read the CBA and Constitution to figure out what authority he has, and it's not worth the time unless it looks like this might really happen.
In these sorts of matters, my sympathies usually lie with employees and labor. In this case, I've gotten sick of prima donna athletes who sign big contracts then go into a hissy fit when their ego gets bruised. The Deshaun Watson thing left a bad taste in my mouth. He threw a hissy fit because he didn't feel that he got input into the team's hiring of a new general manager. Seriously? Ben Simmons is throwing a hissy fit because he exposed all of his weaknesses in the playoffs, made an iconic bad play, and got called out by his coach and teammate. So now he won't play with those meanies any more. I am not one of the Boomers who likes to belittle the younger generations. I have too clear of recollection of what we were really like when we were young. But Jeez, this plays right into the stereotype of the "participation trophy" generations. |
That summarizes it well. I don't know what the CBA and contracts say about this, and whether they could go to arbitration to recover the salary.
I agree with you on the main point. Simmons signed a contract that pays him an obscene amount of money. He should suck it up and be a professional. It's a warning sign for his future career that he is pulling this stunt rather than owning up to his failures.
He wants his freedom? Offer to cancel the contract. Never will happen, of course. |
The anger is misplaced. It's just the business of sports:
Babe Ruth (held out until he was traded to the Yankees - I know you'll want a link for that https://www.ozy.com/true-and-stories/when-babe-ruth-wanted-a-raise-this-was-what-he-did/94538/)
John Elway - refused to report to Indianapolis
Eli Manning - refused to report to San Diego
Mark Messier - held out and forced a trade to the NY Rangers
Rick Barry - broke legal contracts in the NBA AND ABA, held out from a team coached by his father-in-law
And on and on.
People who have leverage use it. There's always the knee jerk "they get millions to play a kid's game and should be grateful" reaction - but few discuss the oligarch's and robber barons who own the teams and make windfall profits.
As to the "it's a valid contract" argument - depends on your leverage. One very famous action hero star signed a 3-picture deal and then refused to do the 2nd picture until they redid his contract. Kim Basinger pulled out of Boxing Helena, was sued for breach of contract and lost. |
Sure, people will use whatever leverage they can. At the same time, it's perfectly fine for the general public to think an athlete is a big baby for how he conducts himself in such situations. |
Another consideration here is that Simmons had no choice over his original "employer." I understand that people are comparing this situation to their own--that's natural--but it's a fairly unique "employment" experience. Ben Simmons was drafted by Philly, he had no choice in the matter other than to enter the draft or not (or try to force a trade). Him accepting the rookie max extension is NOT a reason to drag him for "abiding by a contract." The CBA incentivizes players to accept those contracts and keep control of the player with the team--otherwise the player has to take great personal risk (of injury or decreased performance, often in the hands of his coaching staff) of losing that money. There's almost no "free market" involved here, like most of you experienced in willingly entering into your contracts with your employers.
Finally, for people calling him a "big baby" ... do you apply the same label to KOBE BRYANT for forcing his way to the Lakers in the 96 draft? You have to at least be consistent and, here, a reasonable interpretation is that Ben was even more accommodating to Philly than Kobe was to Charlotte (or other teams trying to draft him). Also, what about Kobe demanding a trade? Was he being a "big baby" then? |
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venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSD wrote: | Zion = that’s all folks. However I think he stays on the east coast and goes to the Knicks.
It’s funny…Silver gave them a franchise player, they got a tremendous amount of assets from the Lakers for AD and they still managed to (bleep) it up.
Just an incompetent organization. |
It’s on Zion, if he comes into every season fat and out of shape he will have a career of injury.
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SGV-Laker fan
Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013
Posts: 8860
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| Simmons is acting like a child. he's taking it out on the Sixer franchise for his lack of game finally got exposed after been labeled a star all these years. the guy has not improved one bit since he came to the league. how difficult to develop a midrange shot nowadays? and yet, this guy not only can't develop one, he FLAT OUT REFUSE to even try. he still got talent no doubt, but highest ceiling for him is Scottie Pippen WITHOUT the offensive game. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Chick's Magic Johnson wrote: | | Finally, for people calling him a "big baby" ... do you apply the same label to KOBE BRYANT for forcing his way to the Lakers in the 96 draft? You have to at least be consistent and, here, a reasonable interpretation is that Ben was even more accommodating to Philly than Kobe was to Charlotte (or other teams trying to draft him). Also, what about Kobe demanding a trade? Was he being a "big baby" then? |
Nope. You folks are missing the point. Simmons isn't a baby because he wants to play for another team. He's a baby because he can't handle criticism after he embarrassed himself on national television. What's next? "I want to be traded because the fans aren't buying enough of my jerseys"? I guess everything would have been better if Rivers and Embiid had bought him a trophy engraved with "Eastern Conference Semifinals -- Participant."
Almost every player who enters the NBA goes through the draft. If you don't want to play for the team that drafted you, you can do what Elway and Eli did. You'll take a lot of flak for it. But if you sign for the team, then sign an extension for an eight figure salary, that's your free choice.
I can't stop you from being a Ben Simmons apologist. I can only urge you to consider that Simmons is refusing to play for a team because the coach and a teammate said something mean about him after he embarrassed himself in game seven of a playoff series.
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Car54
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 14424
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Chick's Magic Johnson wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | I wasn't saying they could withhold the payment from Simmons. However, if they are giving him payment for half the season in advance and he refuses to play, they might be able to sue him to get the money back from him.
There are certainly precedence for doing that. But someone who knows the law of this area better than you and I would have to comment on that.
I have no idea how this is going to end for the 76ers or Simmons. I'm just enjoying the show of it all |
I really don't know the answer to this. This is not an ordinary breach of contract situation. It's governed by the contract, the CBA, and the league Constitution, and the outcome would probably be decided by an arbitrator. I know generally that the Sixers could suspend him and impose a hefty fine, or that they can give him smaller fines without a suspension. I don't know whether the Sixers are obligated to make the 50% payment if he no-shows for training camp. I'd need to read the documents to answer that, and the contract is not publicly available.
What I am hearing is that the owners as a group are fed up with hold outs and trade demands by guys with big contracts. There may be pressure on Adam Silver to make an example out of Simmons, but naturally Silver is not going to want to do this. Nonetheless, if the Sixers don't want to suspend Simmons, Silver may have the power to bring down the hammer on him. Again, I'd have to go read the CBA and Constitution to figure out what authority he has, and it's not worth the time unless it looks like this might really happen.
In these sorts of matters, my sympathies usually lie with employees and labor. In this case, I've gotten sick of prima donna athletes who sign big contracts then go into a hissy fit when their ego gets bruised. The Deshaun Watson thing left a bad taste in my mouth. He threw a hissy fit because he didn't feel that he got input into the team's hiring of a new general manager. Seriously? Ben Simmons is throwing a hissy fit because he exposed all of his weaknesses in the playoffs, made an iconic bad play, and got called out by his coach and teammate. So now he won't play with those meanies any more. I am not one of the Boomers who likes to belittle the younger generations. I have too clear of recollection of what we were really like when we were young. But Jeez, this plays right into the stereotype of the "participation trophy" generations. |
That summarizes it well. I don't know what the CBA and contracts say about this, and whether they could go to arbitration to recover the salary.
I agree with you on the main point. Simmons signed a contract that pays him an obscene amount of money. He should suck it up and be a professional. It's a warning sign for his future career that he is pulling this stunt rather than owning up to his failures.
He wants his freedom? Offer to cancel the contract. Never will happen, of course. |
The anger is misplaced. It's just the business of sports:
Babe Ruth (held out until he was traded to the Yankees - I know you'll want a link for that https://www.ozy.com/true-and-stories/when-babe-ruth-wanted-a-raise-this-was-what-he-did/94538/)
John Elway - refused to report to Indianapolis
Eli Manning - refused to report to San Diego
Mark Messier - held out and forced a trade to the NY Rangers
Rick Barry - broke legal contracts in the NBA AND ABA, held out from a team coached by his father-in-law
And on and on.
People who have leverage use it. There's always the knee jerk "they get millions to play a kid's game and should be grateful" reaction - but few discuss the oligarch's and robber barons who own the teams and make windfall profits.
As to the "it's a valid contract" argument - depends on your leverage. One very famous action hero star signed a 3-picture deal and then refused to do the 2nd picture until they redid his contract. Kim Basinger pulled out of Boxing Helena, was sued for breach of contract and lost. |
Sure, people will use whatever leverage they can. At the same time, it's perfectly fine for the general public to think an athlete is a big baby for how he conducts himself in such situations. |
Another consideration here is that Simmons had no choice over his original "employer." I understand that people are comparing this situation to their own--that's natural--but it's a fairly unique "employment" experience. Ben Simmons was drafted by Philly, he had no choice in the matter other than to enter the draft or not (or try to force a trade). Him accepting the rookie max extension is NOT a reason to drag him for "abiding by a contract." The CBA incentivizes players to accept those contracts and keep control of the player with the team--otherwise the player has to take great personal risk (of injury or decreased performance, often in the hands of his coaching staff) of losing that money. There's almost no "free market" involved here, like most of you experienced in willingly entering into your contracts with your employers.
Finally, for people calling him a "big baby" ... do you apply the same label to KOBE BRYANT for forcing his way to the Lakers in the 96 draft? You have to at least be consistent and, here, a reasonable interpretation is that Ben was even more accommodating to Philly than Kobe was to Charlotte (or other teams trying to draft him). Also, what about Kobe demanding a trade? Was he being a "big baby" then? |
All of this now watch one of them try to make it different for Kobe. Kobe couldn’t win so he had a fit and demanded a trade.
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digcom99
Sixth Man
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Chick's Magic Johnson wrote: | | Finally, for people calling him a "big baby" ... do you apply the same label to KOBE BRYANT for forcing his way to the Lakers in the 96 draft? You have to at least be consistent and, here, a reasonable interpretation is that Ben was even more accommodating to Philly than Kobe was to Charlotte (or other teams trying to draft him). Also, what about Kobe demanding a trade? Was he being a "big baby" then? |
Nope. You folks are missing the point. Simmons isn't a baby because he wants to play for another team. He's a baby because he can't handle criticism after he embarrassed himself on national television. What's next? "I want to be traded because the fans aren't buying enough of my jerseys"? I guess everything would have been better if Rivers and Embiid had bought him a trophy engraved with "Eastern Conference Semifinals -- Participant."
Almost every player who enters the NBA goes through the draft. If you don't want to play for the team that drafted you, you can do what Elway and Eli did. You'll take a lot of flak for it. But if you sign for the team, then sign an extension for an eight figure salary, that's your free choice.
I can't stop you from being a Ben Simmons apologist. I can only urge you to consider that Simmons is refusing to play for a team because the coach and a teammate said something mean about him after he embarrassed himself in game seven of a playoff series. |
This.
Comparing Kobe’s situation to Simmons is like comparing Mars to Pluto. Not even on the same planet. |
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joeblow
Star Player
Joined: 24 Nov 2008
Posts: 3088
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: |
| joeblow wrote: |
Think about it: there are sometimes flagrant fouls committed so egregiously that if someone else did it in "real life", they'd be arrested. With the CBA they get fined/suspended instead. |
As I understand it, what you're talking about here has nothing to do with the CBA but state and federal laws about consent. When someone agrees to play a sport, they effectively consent to physical contact consistent with the rules of the game. By stepping onto the court, the players consent to the possibilities of being fouled. Generally, even a "flagrant foul" falls within the parameters of the physical conduct players have agreed to, legally speaking.
Theoretically (and in reality) players have been arrested and sued for physical contact that goes outside the bounds of the sport. For example, Rudy Tomjanovich sued Kermit Washington for the famous incident where Washington punched him during the game, and they settled out of court. Additional, players have been arrested for attacking referees, since referees do not implicitly consent to physical contact with players to the same degree that players agree to contact with other players. |
That doesn't change what I said, which was "there are sometimes flagrant fouls committed so egregiously that if someone else did it in "real life", they'd be arrested". I didn't say that all aggressive actions are ignored by the law.
For instance, when McHale viciously took out Rambis with a clothesline, a common foul was called. If he did that to some random guy out on the street, he'd have been arrested. In the context of how the league is structured, it was handled "in house" instead of independently by legal authorities.
Last edited by joeblow on Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17104
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | Simmons is acting like a child. he's taking it out on the Sixer franchise for his lack of game finally got exposed after been labeled a star all these years. the guy has not improved one bit since he came to the league. how difficult to develop a midrange shot nowadays? and yet, this guy not only can't develop one, he FLAT OUT REFUSE to even try. he still got talent no doubt, but highest ceiling for him is Scottie Pippen WITHOUT the offensive game. |
When your coach & franchise player don't back you up, that is a good reason to want out. For all of Simmons' holes in his game, that is on the coach and the team to either put him in a situation where he can succeed or move him for a piece that can succeed in their situation.
The biggest issue in sports (to me) is coaches who try to put square pegs in round holes, then blame the peg for not being round. Simmons is the same guy to whom they gave a max deal. If they bet "on the come" that he would become Steph Curry from beyond the arc, that's on them.
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:13 am Post subject: |
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It was his free throw shooting that cost them a playoff series
Last edited by JUST-MING on Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Chick's Magic Johnson wrote: |
Another consideration here is that Simmons had no choice over his original "employer." I understand that people are comparing this situation to their own--that's natural--but it's a fairly unique "employment" experience. Ben Simmons was drafted by Philly, he had no choice in the matter other than to enter the draft or not (or try to force a trade). Him accepting the rookie max extension is NOT a reason to drag him for "abiding by a contract." The CBA incentivizes players to accept those contracts and keep control of the player with the team--otherwise the player has to take great personal risk (of injury or decreased performance, often in the hands of his coaching staff) of losing that money. There's almost no "free market" involved here, like most of you experienced in willingly entering into your contracts with your employers. |
Simmons had choices. He could have played in Europe or gone into another profession. No one forced him to play in the NBA. That was a choice he made.
And when he elected to play in the NBA, he joined a unionized franchise operation which had existing rules he agreed to.
| Chick's Magic Johnson wrote: | | Finally, for people calling him a "big baby" ... do you apply the same label to KOBE BRYANT for forcing his way to the Lakers in the 96 draft? You have to at least be consistent and, here, a reasonable interpretation is that Ben was even more accommodating to Philly than Kobe was to Charlotte (or other teams trying to draft him). Also, what about Kobe demanding a trade? Was he being a "big baby" then? |
And to correct you, I am not calling Simmons a big baby for demanding a trade. I am calling him a big baby for the way he has conducted himself publically.
If he wants to hold out for the rest of his life and never play in the NBA again, that's his business. |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| joeblow wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
| joeblow wrote: |
Think about it: there are sometimes flagrant fouls committed so egregiously that if someone else did it in "real life", they'd be arrested. With the CBA they get fined/suspended instead. |
As I understand it, what you're talking about here has nothing to do with the CBA but state and federal laws about consent. When someone agrees to play a sport, they effectively consent to physical contact consistent with the rules of the game. By stepping onto the court, the players consent to the possibilities of being fouled. Generally, even a "flagrant foul" falls within the parameters of the physical conduct players have agreed to, legally speaking.
Theoretically (and in reality) players have been arrested and sued for physical contact that goes outside the bounds of the sport. For example, Rudy Tomjanovich sued Kermit Washington for the famous incident where Washington punched him during the game, and they settled out of court. Additional, players have been arrested for attacking referees, since referees do not implicitly consent to physical contact with players to the same degree that players agree to contact with other players. |
That doesn't change what I said, which was "there are sometimes flagrant fouls committed so egregiously that if someone else did it in "real life", they'd be arrested". I didn't say that all aggressive actions are ignored by the law.
For instance, when McHale viciously took out Rambis with a clothesline, a common foul was called. If he did that to some random guy out on the street, he'd have been arrested. In the context of how the league is structured, it was handled "in house" instead of independently by legal authorities. |
You're talking apples and oranges. The NBA's rules and procedures are unrelated to law enforcement. The reason law enforcement did not become involved in the incidents you cite is because no laws were broken, not because they decided to let the NBA handle the situation.
Last edited by activeverb on Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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digcom99
Sixth Man
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | Simmons is acting like a child. he's taking it out on the Sixer franchise for his lack of game finally got exposed after been labeled a star all these years. the guy has not improved one bit since he came to the league. how difficult to develop a midrange shot nowadays? and yet, this guy not only can't develop one, he FLAT OUT REFUSE to even try. he still got talent no doubt, but highest ceiling for him is Scottie Pippen WITHOUT the offensive game. |
When your coach & franchise player don't back you up, that is a good reason to want out. For all of Simmons' holes in his game, that is on the coach and the team to either put him in a situation where he can succeed or move him for a piece that can succeed in their situation.
The biggest issue in sports (to me) is coaches who try to put square pegs in round holes, then blame the peg for not being round. Simmons is the same guy to whom they gave a max deal. If they bet "on the come" that he would become Steph Curry from beyond the arc, that's on them. |
Given the context that they were asked Ben questions right after a very tough game 7 loss highlighted by Simmons’ glaring shortcomings, I can understand why Rivers and Embiid said what they did. And their statements should be taken in that light. When frustrated, people will say things unfiltered and not necessarily mean what they say. With time and hindsight, they would probably take back their wording.
I personally don’t think Doc and Embiid threw Simmons under the bus per se. The relationships could’ve been saved if all parties had gotten together after a brief cooling off period and talked about what needs to be done going forward.
It appears to me that management and Embiid have tried to reach out but Simmons has dug in and rebuffed them. To me, this is all on Ben and his agents. |
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anth2000
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 12165
Location: Pasadena, CA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:34 am Post subject: |
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No shock regarding Simmons. Didn't some folks post that he is a big spoiled baby who is lazy and doesn't work on his game....has a ton of enablers around him just allowing him to never wear his big boy pants.....it shows.
He sounds like a spoiled little pouty baby...... |
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Nash Vegas
Star Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2012
Posts: 7239
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| Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| anth2000 wrote: | No shock regarding Simmons. Didn't some folks post that he is a big spoiled baby who is lazy and doesn't work on his game....has a ton of enablers around him just allowing him to never wear his big boy pants.....it shows.
He sounds like a spoiled little pouty baby...... |
Didn’t Simmons have issues during college pre-draft? That was one of the knock people were giving him to spruce up drafting BI.
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