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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:10 pm    Post subject:

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And no arthouse cinema isn't dying, that's an objectively false claim. There are more indie film festivals today than there were in the 70s or 80s or whenever your golden age of choice would be.


The key distinction (which is the whole point of the whole thing) is that they’re indies. Studios used to be factories for artistic cinema to go along with their blockbusters which is no longer the case, even if their indie subsidiaries buy a few off the shelf at a festival. In terms of financing these endeavors studios have largely turned their backs.

Most of the people who read this thread won’t get an opportunity to see The Irishman in theaters because it isn’t getting a wide release. Sounds like the opposite of what Scorsese would want, right? Well nobody else was willing to finance this movie from one of the great filmmakers of all time. His choice was to make it this way or not make it at all. This is the new reality Scorsese is lamenting and for the record, he’s talking about franchise films as a whole (not just Marvel movies). If the studios have abandoned the financing of movies like this and the only people willing to do it have contempt for the theater experience then what’s the logical outcome? They disappear entirely or get relegated to streaming boxes. That’s death to the artform.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:14 pm    Post subject:

panamaniac wrote:
There's nothing concrete or objective about the Marty V Mickey Mouse dilemma. Just another case of opinions/a$$holes. I respect Marty for explicitly declaring I don't like those movies, they're not for me, that's a perfectly reasonable position. Didn't care too much for the rest of the piece. Personally, I'm for comic book flicks, and I'm for arthouse movies and everything in between. A good story's a good story. And no arthouse cinema isn't dying, that's an objectively false claim. There are more indie film festivals today than there were in the 70s or 80s or whenever your golden age of choice would be. Indie simply doesn't bring home the profits of its blockbuster counterparts. But then again it's always been that way. Bottom line, if you support what you like, it's not going to go away.

https://www.news-gazette.com/arts-entertainment/film-television/art-theater-closing-its-doors-for-good-on-halloween/article_adfac133-6a42-51f9-bc41-497ef3748c2b.html
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:43 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
And no arthouse cinema isn't dying, that's an objectively false claim. There are more indie film festivals today than there were in the 70s or 80s or whenever your golden age of choice would be.


The key distinction (which is the whole point of the whole thing) is that they’re indies. Studios used to be factories for artistic cinema to go along with their blockbusters which is no longer the case, even if their indie subsidiaries buy a few off the shelf at a festival. In terms of financing these endeavors studios have largely turned their backs.

Most of the people who read this thread won’t get an opportunity to see The Irishman in theaters because it isn’t getting a wide release. Sounds like the opposite of what Scorsese would want, right? Well nobody else was willing to finance this movie from one of the great filmmakers of all time. His choice was to make it this way or not make it at all. This is the new reality Scorsese is lamenting and for the record, he’s talking about franchise films as a whole (not just Marvel movies). If the studios have abandoned the financing of movies like this and the only people willing to do it have contempt for the theater experience then what’s the logical outcome? They disappear entirely or get relegated to streaming boxes. That’s death to the artform.


I wouldn't call it death. Merely evolution.

Arthouse theaters still exist in major cities, but now those movies are available everywhere. Are they all going to be shown in theaters? Of course not. That's impossible.

However, even in those major cities, arthouse theaters were never exactly the pinnacle of the moviegoing experience. The average person's living room has better video and sound quality than a majority of those theaters.

As for the major studio's views of such films, I spent years in that part of the business, from doing foreign sales for indie production companies to being an acquisition exec for the arthouse division of one of those major studios.

I hate to break it to you, but this has been going on for close to 30 years. They are in the business of making money. That goes for the theater owners as well. Even the arthouse ones.

If I asked my boss to spend $5 million on a film and it was beautiful and poignant and moved audiences to tears, but ended up only bringing in $1 million, I don't get praised for trying to bring art to the masses, I get fired.

That big time producer that has all of that goodwill built up with a studio that wants to finally make a "real film"? That's easily $50 million without even talking about prints and marketing. They might be able to survive one bomb, as long as they follow it up with a blockbuster, but they won't be able to make another one without using their own money.

That arthouse theater that shows that obscure film that you think is so wonderful? If you're one of 10 people in the theater and that's for a busy showing, the owner isn't thinking how great it is that they got to share something wonderful with even a small group of people, they're wondering if they'll have enough at the end of the month to make rent and payroll.

The chairman of the studio I worked for flat out told us don't bring me art. I pay someone to get that stuff for my house and office. Bring me something that makes money.

A very successful producer from the 90's once said I don't make art. I make movies that make money so I can buy art.

So, the traditional theater format may be dying for arthouse movies, but the industry itself is not. Say what you will about streaming services, but you have access to movies you likely would have never even heard of before they came around, and a far larger number of them at that.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:38 pm    Post subject:

Hector the Pup wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
And no arthouse cinema isn't dying, that's an objectively false claim. There are more indie film festivals today than there were in the 70s or 80s or whenever your golden age of choice would be.


The key distinction (which is the whole point of the whole thing) is that they’re indies. Studios used to be factories for artistic cinema to go along with their blockbusters which is no longer the case, even if their indie subsidiaries buy a few off the shelf at a festival. In terms of financing these endeavors studios have largely turned their backs.

Most of the people who read this thread won’t get an opportunity to see The Irishman in theaters because it isn’t getting a wide release. Sounds like the opposite of what Scorsese would want, right? Well nobody else was willing to finance this movie from one of the great filmmakers of all time. His choice was to make it this way or not make it at all. This is the new reality Scorsese is lamenting and for the record, he’s talking about franchise films as a whole (not just Marvel movies). If the studios have abandoned the financing of movies like this and the only people willing to do it have contempt for the theater experience then what’s the logical outcome? They disappear entirely or get relegated to streaming boxes. That’s death to the artform.


I wouldn't call it death. Merely evolution.

Arthouse theaters still exist in major cities, but now those movies are available everywhere. Are they all going to be shown in theaters? Of course not. That's impossible.

However, even in those major cities, arthouse theaters were never exactly the pinnacle of the moviegoing experience. The average person's living room has better video and sound quality than a majority of those theaters.

As for the major studio's views of such films, I spent years in that part of the business, from doing foreign sales for indie production companies to being an acquisition exec for the arthouse division of one of those major studios.

I hate to break it to you, but this has been going on for close to 30 years. They are in the business of making money. That goes for the theater owners as well. Even the arthouse ones.

If I asked my boss to spend $5 million on a film and it was beautiful and poignant and moved audiences to tears, but ended up only bringing in $1 million, I don't get praised for trying to bring art to the masses, I get fired.

That big time producer that has all of that goodwill built up with a studio that wants to finally make a "real film"? That's easily $50 million without even talking about prints and marketing. They might be able to survive one bomb, as long as they follow it up with a blockbuster, but they won't be able to make another one without using their own money.

That arthouse theater that shows that obscure film that you think is so wonderful? If you're one of 10 people in the theater and that's for a busy showing, the owner isn't thinking how great it is that they got to share something wonderful with even a small group of people, they're wondering if they'll have enough at the end of the month to make rent and payroll.

The chairman of the studio I worked for flat out told us don't bring me art. I pay someone to get that stuff for my house and office. Bring me something that makes money.

A very successful producer from the 90's once said I don't make art. I make movies that make money so I can buy art.

So, the traditional theater format may be dying for arthouse movies, but the industry itself is not. Say what you will about streaming services, but you have access to movies you likely would have never even heard of before they came around, and a far larger number of them at that.


Evolution? If the only movies I can see in a theater are superhero movies the art form has not evolved. It has devolved badly. As for the living room having better picture and sound, again, no way in hell. I have a pretty nice setup that doesn’t come close to the worst theater in LA. I’ve been in some unbelievable home theaters owned by people far, far wealthier than me that also don’t compare. I also think there’s a pretty big disconnect with what you think the average person has in their living room. Then again, talking about theaters this way also badly misses the point.

Most of the people I know (including myself) are involved in the entertainment business in some capacity and the group ranges from agents to exhibitors to financiers to buyers to producers to directors to editors to writers and everyone in between. The overwhelming majority of the people I know, even those on the business side, did not get into the business solely to make money. Some friends of mine have sacrificed financially in order to work in the non-profit side of things because they believe in it so much. I think that art house theater owner in your description didn’t open his doors because he had dollar signs in his eyes. Everybody understands that it’s a business and everyone wants to make money, but the whole point of this is that art and commerce can coexist and a lot of the time they’re the same.

I’ve met people like the very successful 90s producer you know. They treat films like stocks and every single one of them is a profoundly yeasty (bleep). They operate that way because of this, not because they can’t be a success any other way. As far as my access to these movies in large number thanks to streaming services, that’s already starting to erode (read about Disney locking away the 20th Century Fox library in another effort to kill theaters). All of the services are moving targets and it’s impossible to keep track of what’s coming and what’s going on Netflix. Most streaming services don’t offer more than the video store I used to work at in college. Streaming is a wonderful supplement to the theater experience, and it’s a giant failure if all cinematic art is relegated to this.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:09 pm    Post subject:

Ever since moving to a metropolitan area about 4 years ago I’ve been going to the movies religiously every weekend. I’ve watched a ton of movies the last few years (still probably just 1/1000th of what bvh has watched lol definitely not pulling rank or anything). I’d say about 45% of what I’ve watched during that time is indie, and provided that the movie has garnered some online buzz, the turnout is consistently pretty damn robust. My local cineplex will usually screen indies, and select foreign flicks that have made noise in the festival circuit and the like. Additionally there are about 5 or 6 independent theaters (that I know of) that will show indies at high quality with top notch theatre experience. And they all make solid business. So just going off of my personal experience, I certainly wouldn’t say that arthouse cinema is dying. But like any niche sub culture, it’s certainly more of a regional phenomenon.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject:

Random thought but what writer/director team would you be most interested to see make a movie together? I was thinking of a movie written by QT but directed by Christopher Nolan would be fascinating.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:54 pm    Post subject:

The Decade's Top 25 List from the folks at Ebert Voices:

1. Tree of Life
2. Moonlight
3. Inside Llewyn Davis
4. Mad Max: Fury Road
5. Phantom Thread
6. Wolf of Wall Street
7. Under the Skin
8. Roma
9. Get Out
10. The Master

You can check out the rest of the list and read essays on each of the movies at RogerEbert.com
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:14 pm    Post subject:

panamaniac wrote:
Ever since moving to a metropolitan area about 4 years ago I’ve been going to the movies religiously every weekend. I’ve watched a ton of movies the last few years (still probably just 1/1000th of what bvh has watched lol definitely not pulling rank or anything). I’d say about 45% of what I’ve watched during that time is indie, and provided that the movie has garnered some online buzz, the turnout is consistently pretty damn robust. My local cineplex will usually screen indies, and select foreign flicks that have made noise in the festival circuit and the like. Additionally there are about 5 or 6 independent theaters (that I know of) that will show indies at high quality with top notch theatre experience. And they all make solid business. So just going off of my personal experience, I certainly wouldn’t say that arthouse cinema is dying. But like any niche sub culture, it’s certainly more of a regional phenomenon.

With all sincerity, thank you for your service and I'm happy you've gotten to see so many interesting movies in the theater over the past few years. The number of independent arthouse and reperatory theaters around the country is in decline, though, especially in smaller metro areas that Alamo and Landmark aren't setting up shop in anytime soon. I sometimes get annoyed at my local Landmark and wish it would be a little more daring in some of its programming choices, but a few months back I saw Bi Gan's Long Days Journey Into Night with only one other person in attendance and after he approached me after the screening about what I thought of the flick, I found out he had driven over an hour just to see three movies that day - that's dedication!

I think there's passion there among the diehards and I think there's an audience willing to explore if given and made aware of the opportunity, but those opportunities are drying up except in fewer and fewer major metro pockets while the audience for the small town rep/art house theaters seems to be aging quickly. More people - especially younger people - being made aware of the threat to the theatrical experience can't hurt even if most of them shrug it off or make memes of Scorsese as Abe Simpson. And maybe optimistically there are some younger indie directors who are inspired to turn down that Marvel pitch to direct an X-Men reboot where they "won't have to worry" about directing the action scenes and a few folks with more clout in the industry willing to put midtier money behind thoughtful projects that will turn out to be singles or doubles rather than $150M behind another Harry Potter spinoff. One can dare to dream.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:16 pm    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
Random thought but what writer/director team would you be most interested to see make a movie together? I was thinking of a movie written by QT but directed by Christopher Nolan would be fascinating.

Paul Schrader and Sofia Coppola.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:14 pm    Post subject:

W: Charlie Kaufman
D: Lynne Ramsay
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:02 pm    Post subject:

Anyone know where I can watch some Wang Bing before the decade ends?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:49 pm    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
Random thought but what writer/director team would you be most interested to see make a movie together? I was thinking of a movie written by QT but directed by Christopher Nolan would be fascinating.


I would like to see Garth Ennis hook up with Alan Parker and make a proper Hellblazer adaptation of DC/Vertigo's John Constantine, and then recruit Sting to play the titular role. Additionally, I think this may require a time machine.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:09 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige noted that, with the upcoming debut of MCU series on Disney+, the events of those shows will tie more directly into the theatrical endeavors, requiring fans to watch those series to fully appreciate theatrical outings.


#cinema
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:17 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige noted that, with the upcoming debut of MCU series on Disney+, the events of those shows will tie more directly into the theatrical endeavors, requiring fans to watch those series to fully appreciate theatrical outings.


#cinema


This could potentially - though not likely - free up the cinemas by there being fewer MCU movies and more of their content streaming.

I don't see the issue with have the streaming and movie universe connect; most people that consume that are going to watch everything anyway. MCU isn't really casual fan content IMO so this seems more like a reminder (cash grab) that Disney+ is important, which drops next week.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:45 am    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige noted that, with the upcoming debut of MCU series on Disney+, the events of those shows will tie more directly into the theatrical endeavors, requiring fans to watch those series to fully appreciate theatrical outings.


#cinema


This could potentially - though not likely - free up the cinemas by there being fewer MCU movies and more of their content streaming.

I don't see the issue with have the streaming and movie universe connect; most people that consume that are going to watch everything anyway. MCU isn't really casual fan content IMO so this seems more like a reminder (cash grab) that Disney+ is important, which drops next week.


There won’t be fewer Marvel movies. It’s just now they’re using them to make people subscribe to their streaming service.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:12 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige noted that, with the upcoming debut of MCU series on Disney+, the events of those shows will tie more directly into the theatrical endeavors, requiring fans to watch those series to fully appreciate theatrical outings.


#cinema


This could potentially - though not likely - free up the cinemas by there being fewer MCU movies and more of their content streaming.

I don't see the issue with have the streaming and movie universe connect; most people that consume that are going to watch everything anyway. MCU isn't really casual fan content IMO so this seems more like a reminder (cash grab) that Disney+ is important, which drops next week.


There won’t be fewer Marvel movies. It’s just now they’re using them to make people subscribe to their streaming service.

A piddling $50M budget movie about Squirrel Girl? Unfit for theaters - straight to streaming on Disney+!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:15 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Anyone know where I can watch some Wang Bing before the decade ends?

Basically, are there sites where one could download rarer, arty movies now (with the promise of purchasing them later whenever they become available on physical media for U.S. distribution)?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:18 am    Post subject:

golden armor wrote:
W: Charlie Kaufman
D: Lynne Ramsay

lol I think that's brilliant, but I would especially look forward to the subsequent thinly veiled Kaufman script about the devestating emotional experience of Ramsay chopping out half his dialogue for their movie together.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:46 am    Post subject:

Speaking of Charlie Kaufman, he and Jesse Plemmons (Meth Damon/Fatt Damon) are adapting the book I'm Thinking of Ending Things into a Netflix movie. The book was very interesting, a psychological thriller. I'm interested to see what kind of movie he makes and how.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:56 am    Post subject:

Abel Ferrara is one of those film nerd darlings that has never fully worked for me outside of his biography, though I've enjoyed his movies like Bad Lieutenant, King of New York, and Ms. 45, but I lost track of his ouput after the 1990s. Trying to catch up to his ouput this decade in my futile attempt to see everything worth seeing before making a Best of Decade List, so far I've struck by Welcome to New York, which is about the infamous 2011 Dominique Strauss-Kahn sexual assault case in all but name only. It stars Gerard Depardieu (Devereaux in the film as a DSK stand-in) in all his corpulent, wheezing glory and by the end of this movie you will have seen him in all states of undress and be intimately familiar with his man bag both front and back.

Not a selling point, I know, but it's a clinical, scathing movie about the excesses of the uber rich, how the justice system works differently dependant on class, and the narcissistic messianism of the powerful insulated from consequences. Jacqueline Bissett plays Depardieu/Devereaux's beleaguered wife more bothered by the public facing nature of the accusations against him than the actual accusations and their scenes together crackle. Really unassuming overall, there's a lot going on within a more controlled formalism that seems new from Ferrara.

Now streaming on Netflix.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:23 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Anyone know where I can watch some Wang Bing before the decade ends?

Basically, are there sites where one could download rarer, arty movies now (with the promise of purchasing them later whenever they become available on physical media for U.S. distribution)?


https://passthepopcorn.me/ is shangri-la for that. Good luck trying to get an account.

I knew someone a few years ago with access who would get me stuff, and there was literally nothing I could stump him on, regardless of language or country. Even rare TV.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:18 pm    Post subject:

Well, The Irishman was (bleep) great. My apologies to Marty for giving him grief about the marvel thing. He's still wrong though, but whatever. The old man's a genius and this is perhaps his best film since Casino. I felt like this movie is to Marty what Unforgiven was for Eastwood. I think it might be the deepest film he's made.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:40 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
And no arthouse cinema isn't dying, that's an objectively false claim. There are more indie film festivals today than there were in the 70s or 80s or whenever your golden age of choice would be.


The key distinction (which is the whole point of the whole thing) is that they’re indies. Studios used to be factories for artistic cinema to go along with their blockbusters which is no longer the case, even if their indie subsidiaries buy a few off the shelf at a festival. In terms of financing these endeavors studios have largely turned their backs.

Most of the people who read this thread won’t get an opportunity to see The Irishman in theaters because it isn’t getting a wide release. Sounds like the opposite of what Scorsese would want, right? Well nobody else was willing to finance this movie from one of the great filmmakers of all time. His choice was to make it this way or not make it at all. This is the new reality Scorsese is lamenting and for the record, he’s talking about franchise films as a whole (not just Marvel movies). If the studios have abandoned the financing of movies like this and the only people willing to do it have contempt for the theater experience then what’s the logical outcome? They disappear entirely or get relegated to streaming boxes. That’s death to the artform.


Ocho, you know I have the utmost respect for you and your take on film, but are we really casting Martin Scorsese as a victim of the current state of film making?

Sure, the studio dynamic is changing. But last I checked the theaters like The Landmark still exist and their screens are showing predominantly independent films. Not only that, they are packed on weekends.

In the meantime, large numbers of auteurs are getting to make their projects thanks to streaming - far more than ever would under the old strictly theatrical release days.

Yeah, things are changing and there are kinks to be worked out. But this idea that Martin Scorsese is somehow getting squeezed is silly. He knows exactly what he is doing. He's leveraging the current system to his own benefit, and not out of necessity. The limited theatrical release is the way for him to do so. He still gets to have his film Academy eligible by gaming the system (and I don't say that as a criticism), but he lashes out at franchise filmmakers for maximizing their product. I'm a big fan of Scorsese, but recently he's coming across as an arrogant and hypocritical elitist.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:44 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:


Evolution? If the only movies I can see in a theater are superhero movies the art form has not evolved.


You know that is not even remotely the case.

I've seen as many small indies over the last few years in the theater as I have superhero movies.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:04 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ocho wrote:


Evolution? If the only movies I can see in a theater are superhero movies the art form has not evolved.


You know that is not even remotely the case.

I've seen as many small indies over the last few years in the theater as I have superhero movies.


It’s not the case today, though it is trending in that direction. You may have seen as many indies as superheroes in theaters, but you’ve probably also streamed a lot more movies over the past few years that you would have seen in a theater before. You also live in a city where you can see something like The Irishman in a theater, which is not the case for most people.
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