|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | What I see is "We will treat you like a God if you are a top five player... however if you are anything less... you will be sacrificed for the benefit of said top five player." |
But this has been the case for the Lakers for 30 years.
NVE/Eddie Jones (two of my fave Lakers) were sacrificed at the altar of the great Shaq/Kobe iteration.
Pau/Lamar (guys who earned their place in the Lakers pantheon) were traded for a then-top 3 guy in CP3.
Ariza, who is also one of my fave non-star Laker, was let go and they offered the same deal to Artest (who then helped us win a ring against the Celts, which is always more pleasurable in my book).
So while it sucks, even Dr. Buss signed off on this concept. I just don't like how it went down with Klutch trying to orchestrate a futile exile from the Pels to the Lakers.
It was too transparently obvious that the Pels were not going to trade AD to us but Magic/Rob fell into that trap badly. |
Not sure we can compare historical Laker moves to current process. League was different, players were different, salary cap was different, situation is different.
Lakers were always competitive and were drafting at the end of the round. Not out of the playoffs and drafting top 5 consistently. Players were not organizing their own super teams. Today's players have much more control of the narrative, salary cap and power over franchises. Even the reliance of building around an aging player instead of adding him to an established team is different then a Dr. Buss era move.
Lakers have to stop living in the past and build a "team" now. At this point I am frustrated with the decisions they are making but finding myself having to accept them because of being a fan.
I just want to see a lot less chaos and drama and a roster that is about the "now" instead of the "fantasy future". Would prefer a deeper team with a mix of young and old but even if it is a top heavy team and a bunch a ring chasers for a couple seasons it will have more stability then this cluster**** we are seeing now.
No more excuses. If James is the centerpiece then be the leader he is supposed to be. The final 25 games can be the start of some chemistry or just another pathetic Laker season. Then the real fun begins over the summer. |
We can compare, b/c it's always been their ethos.
Other teams can be content with barely making the playoffs, getting some playoff revenues, and getting a nice revenue sharing check from teams like the Lakers.
You are advocating for fundamentally changing what the Lakers ethos has been for the past 30+ years. They crave stars. They want stars. They keep stars (even when they're hurt). Same Lakers formula.
It's just clunky b/c we were on the path to LBJ/PG13 and none of this would rise to the surface as it is now. We'd be able to have 2 all stars and keep the YUTES (or trade for a 3rd) and things would be ok in La La Land.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Dr. Laker wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | I think Magic is quickly (hopefully) discovering in the league of GMs/FOs, there are "Magic Johnsons" out there that far outpace him. These are the math nerds and talent evaluators who got to their positions grinding through the system based on merit.
Magic? Well, he's Magic.
Crazy thing is that we may just end up getting another max, then trading for AD, and we just gloss over these things. |
We Lakers fans will actually be HAPPY about that, instead of grinding axes because we didn't develop some middle tier talent into a slightly above middle tier talent. |
Yup. And it's the type of move Dr. Buss did time and time again.
But the doubt about whether it can come to fruition is real this time though.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16118
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | In fact, we could be approaching the scenario that I fear the most. Suppose Kawhi goes to the Clippers. Durant and Thompson stay home. Irving stays a Celtic, and Butler stays a Sixer. You can switch that around a little, but you get the idea. The cupboard is bare, except maybe for some guys like Walker and Vucevic. What's Magic going to do? He'll be hearing on the radio that every Lowes and Home Depot in southern California is selling out on pitchforks and torches. What's he going to do?!? The agents will be circling around that closet full of cap space like buzzards. What's he going to do?!?!? |
Couldn't we use our cap space to sign Julius Randle and DLo to make things right again?
Didn't NO put both Randle and Mirotic on the market but only Mirotic had takers? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Four Decade Bandwagon
Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2014
Posts: 8143
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | I think Magic is quickly (hopefully) discovering in the league of GMs/FOs, there are "Magic Johnsons" out there that far outpace him. These are the math nerds and talent evaluators who got to their positions grinding through the system based on merit.
Magic? Well, he's Magic.
Crazy thing is that we may just end up getting another max, then trading for AD, and we just gloss over these things. |
We Lakers fans will actually be HAPPY about that, instead of grinding axes because we didn't develop some middle tier talent into a slightly above middle tier talent. |
Yup. And it's the type of move Dr. Buss did time and time again.
But the doubt about whether it can come to fruition is real this time though. |
I continue to hope that FO is up to the task of pulling this off. They have a lot of work to do.
James is not the vet magnet so many were describing. The circus around him seems to be pushing more players away then drawing them in. The entire plan revolves around him. His style, his pace, his ability to play nice with others. AD will need to defer. Same as any FA signing this summer, whether max talent or vet min ring chaser.
If Magic can get this roster turned into a true contender in such a short window it will be his best sales job of his life. Personally I am seeing more similarities to him being the front man for the Bullet Train fiasco. Hope I'm wrong! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | In fact, we could be approaching the scenario that I fear the most. Suppose Kawhi goes to the Clippers. Durant and Thompson stay home. Irving stays a Celtic, and Butler stays a Sixer. You can switch that around a little, but you get the idea. The cupboard is bare, except maybe for some guys like Walker and Vucevic. What's Magic going to do? He'll be hearing on the radio that every Lowes and Home Depot in southern California is selling out on pitchforks and torches. What's he going to do?!? The agents will be circling around that closet full of cap space like buzzards. What's he going to do?!?!? |
Couldn't we use our cap space to sign Julius Randle and DLo to make things right again?
Didn't NO put both Randle and Mirotic on the market but only Mirotic had takers? |
I don't know if this is serious or tongue in cheek, given some of the things that people are posting in this thread. The point of the Isiah Thomas comparison is that you could kinda sorta justify a lot of Thomas' moves if you looked at them individually. For example, he dumped draft picks for Eddy Curry. Curry was in a dispute with the Bulls about his heart condition, which ultimately turned out to be a false alarm. Isiah swooped in and picked him up. In hindsight, that was a disaster, because Curry was never very good and the draft picks turned into Wilson Chandler, Joakim Noah, and LaMarcus Aldridge. At the time, though, Thomas could talk himself into it.
That's the sort of scenario that worries me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bluehill
Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 890
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | I think Magic is quickly (hopefully) discovering in the league of GMs/FOs, there are "Magic Johnsons" out there that far outpace him. These are the math nerds and talent evaluators who got to their positions grinding through the system based on merit.
Magic? Well, he's Magic.
Crazy thing is that we may just end up getting another max, then trading for AD, and we just gloss over these things. |
We Lakers fans will actually be HAPPY about that, instead of grinding axes because we didn't develop some middle tier talent into a slightly above middle tier talent. |
Yup. And it's the type of move Dr. Buss did time and time again.
But the doubt about whether it can come to fruition is real this time though. |
I continue to hope that FO is up to the task of pulling this off. They have a lot of work to do.
James is not the vet magnet so many were describing. The circus around him seems to be pushing more players away then drawing them in. The entire plan revolves around him. His style, his pace, his ability to play nice with others. AD will need to defer. Same as any FA signing this summer, whether max talent or vet min ring chaser.
If Magic can get this roster turned into a true contender in such a short window it will be his best sales job of his life. Personally I am seeing more similarities to him being the front man for the Bullet Train fiasco. Hope I'm wrong! |
Yep, it's not that this can't work, it's that it seems like real long shot. It's the put-it-all-on-red gamble, that I was hoping to avoid after seeing it in Kobe's final years. The upside is great, but so is the downside. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17096
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bluehill wrote: | | Yep, it's not that this can't work, it's that it seems like real long shot. It's the put-it-all-on-red gamble, that I was hoping to avoid after seeing it in Kobe's final years. The upside is great, but so is the downside. |
If anything typifies the Jerry Buss era, it was a willingness to roll the dice!
Biggest example was breaking off negotiations with Shaq and banking on being able to re sign Kobe. He said himself that he was prepared to pick up the pieces and start over if it failed . . . but he took the chance anyway and gambled that the future of the team was with Kobe.
As often happened, he won.
_________________
On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bluehill
Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
Posts: 890
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Dr. Laker wrote: | | bluehill wrote: | | Yep, it's not that this can't work, it's that it seems like real long shot. It's the put-it-all-on-red gamble, that I was hoping to avoid after seeing it in Kobe's final years. The upside is great, but so is the downside. |
If anything typifies the Jerry Buss era, it was a willingness to roll the dice!
Biggest example was breaking off negotiations with Shaq and banking on being able to re sign Kobe. He said himself that he was prepared to pick up the pieces and start over if it failed . . . but he took the chance anyway and gambled that the future of the team was with Kobe.
As often happened, he won. |
Thing is Jerry Buss was a fairly good poker player IIRC. I'm guessing that good poker players tend to make big bets when they think they have an edge. Like Dr. Buss thinking I'll go all-in on a young Kobe who's obsessed with being the best vs. an older Shaq who doesn't seem as committed.
Right now, from a fan's limited perspective, I can't figure out what Magic thinks his edge is, but he's betting like he has one. I hope there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that we're not aware of. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RG73
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: |
James is not the vet magnet so many were describing. The circus around him seems to be pushing more players away then drawing them in. The entire plan revolves around him. His style, his pace, his ability to play nice with others. AD will need to defer. Same as any FA signing this summer, whether max talent or vet min ring chaser. |
This was the same for Kobe. Same for Jordan before him. Same for any superstar player. You build around superstars, their personalities, playing styles and personal drama. How is this news worthy or unique to Lebron? WB hardly altered his style for PG. KG had to fit into Steph's style. CP3 had to adapt to Harden. We could go on and on, but the reality is that if you're a top player in the league, everyone else has to adapt to you, not vice versa. And if you are a star joining another star on THEIR team, you still have to adapt unless you are clearly the better player AND are a ball handling player (so AD, although maybe more impactful than Lebron, does not control the dribble, and hence, the offense....). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
laker50
Star Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2014
Posts: 2140
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
It was a good thing that the Lakers did not overpay for AD.
And it would have messed up the Lakers big time.
So now at least the Lakers are still a max player away but have the
resources and possibilities in the off season.
WITHOUT giving up any players.
This is the smart thing to do.
Then look at the AD situation if Pels will trade for real and maybe even FA.
But will not have the cap space so maybe a reasonable trade.
It is tricky how some teams go over the cap space yet make a championship team. It is smarts and a lot of luck. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bol
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 4045
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
Every team that wants to win championships either has superstar players or is trying to get them. There isn't some secret formula to make a championship team. The teams out there that are run by the nerds and analytics guys that everyone admires so much are doing the same thing. Hinkie the nerd's brilliant plan was to lose as much as possible for years until they got superstar talent in the draft, and it worked, though he paid the price. Still, it required them getting lucky in the lottery. The Lakers could've done better in the lottery draw and gotten Simmons and Embiid and then we'd be in great shape, but it didn't happen.
The whole point of bringing Magic in was to improve our chances at elite free agents, because Jim's horrible reputation and presentation dragged the franchise down in that regard. So far I think it's worked out well with LeBron signing. Some may say that he signed because he wanted to be in L.A., but the point is to present an acceptable landing spot for players who want to be here, you're not going to convince guys who would rather go elsewhere. Shaq and Kobe wanted to be here too, otherwise we wouldn't have gotten them. It's just too bad Davis' contract doesn't run out after this year, as we know he also wants to be here and I think he'd be my first choice of all the players in the league to pair with LeBron. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Juggernaut
Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | I think Magic is quickly (hopefully) discovering in the league of GMs/FOs, there are "Magic Johnsons" out there that far outpace him. These are the math nerds and talent evaluators who got to their positions grinding through the system based on merit.
Magic? Well, he's Magic.
Crazy thing is that we may just end up getting another max, then trading for AD, and we just gloss over these things. |
We Lakers fans will actually be HAPPY about that, instead of grinding axes because we didn't develop some middle tier talent into a slightly above middle tier talent. |
Yup. And it's the type of move Dr. Buss did time and time again.
But the doubt about whether it can come to fruition is real this time though. |
Yup! Eddie Jones was my favorite player, had his Jordan signature shoes and jersey. We sacrificed him and it paid off for a Threepeat. We also trade NVE for a bag of chips.
I really loved Magic's response yesterday when asked about Kemba calling out the NBA's one sided bias on tampering:
| Quote: | | Magic: “You know I can’t answer any questions about no players, because every time I do, I get fined, but anybody else do it, they don’t get fined. So I’m gonna stay away from that one.” |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16118
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | In fact, we could be approaching the scenario that I fear the most. Suppose Kawhi goes to the Clippers. Durant and Thompson stay home. Irving stays a Celtic, and Butler stays a Sixer. You can switch that around a little, but you get the idea. The cupboard is bare, except maybe for some guys like Walker and Vucevic. What's Magic going to do? He'll be hearing on the radio that every Lowes and Home Depot in southern California is selling out on pitchforks and torches. What's he going to do?!? The agents will be circling around that closet full of cap space like buzzards. What's he going to do?!?!? |
Couldn't we use our cap space to sign Julius Randle and DLo to make things right again?
Didn't NO put both Randle and Mirotic on the market but only Mirotic had takers? |
I don't know if this is serious or tongue in cheek, given some of the things that people are posting in this thread. The point of the Isiah Thomas comparison is that you could kinda sorta justify a lot of Thomas' moves if you looked at them individually. For example, he dumped draft picks for Eddy Curry. Curry was in a dispute with the Bulls about his heart condition, which ultimately turned out to be a false alarm. Isiah swooped in and picked him up. In hindsight, that was a disaster, because Curry was never very good and the draft picks turned into Wilson Chandler, Joakim Noah, and LaMarcus Aldridge. At the time, though, Thomas could talk himself into it.
That's the sort of scenario that worries me. |
It's a serious solution. You're saying we mismanaged assets by letting JR and DLo go for nothing just for cap space. But, we have cap space to sign them if we want.
We can fix that issue. All we did was lose 1 yr of JR's services to NO and 2 yrs of DLo's services to the Nets.
If they stayed here, we'd have to pay them anyways. What's the problem that can't be rectified? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AFireInside619
Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2015
Posts: 11447
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | In fact, we could be approaching the scenario that I fear the most. Suppose Kawhi goes to the Clippers. Durant and Thompson stay home. Irving stays a Celtic, and Butler stays a Sixer. You can switch that around a little, but you get the idea. The cupboard is bare, except maybe for some guys like Walker and Vucevic. What's Magic going to do? He'll be hearing on the radio that every Lowes and Home Depot in southern California is selling out on pitchforks and torches. What's he going to do?!? The agents will be circling around that closet full of cap space like buzzards. What's he going to do?!?!? |
Couldn't we use our cap space to sign Julius Randle and DLo to make things right again?
Didn't NO put both Randle and Mirotic on the market but only Mirotic had takers? |
I don't know if this is serious or tongue in cheek, given some of the things that people are posting in this thread. The point of the Isiah Thomas comparison is that you could kinda sorta justify a lot of Thomas' moves if you looked at them individually. For example, he dumped draft picks for Eddy Curry. Curry was in a dispute with the Bulls about his heart condition, which ultimately turned out to be a false alarm. Isiah swooped in and picked him up. In hindsight, that was a disaster, because Curry was never very good and the draft picks turned into Wilson Chandler, Joakim Noah, and LaMarcus Aldridge. At the time, though, Thomas could talk himself into it.
That's the sort of scenario that worries me. |
It's a serious solution. You're saying we mismanaged assets by letting JR and DLo go for nothing just for cap space. But, we have cap space to sign them if we want.
We can fix that issue. All we did was lose 1 yr of JR's services to NO and 2 yrs of DLo's services to the Nets.
If they stayed here, we'd have to pay them anyways. What's the problem that can't be rectified? |
We did right by Randle. He asked to be released and we granted him that wish. I don’t believe that bridge is completely burned. The only way we get DLO back is if DLO signs a QO, and Magic & Rob stepped aside, and Jesse & Ryan too over. Then in a year’s time fences can be mended. But there’s no DLO if there’s Magic. Both sides would be too proud. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | In fact, we could be approaching the scenario that I fear the most. Suppose Kawhi goes to the Clippers. Durant and Thompson stay home. Irving stays a Celtic, and Butler stays a Sixer. You can switch that around a little, but you get the idea. The cupboard is bare, except maybe for some guys like Walker and Vucevic. What's Magic going to do? He'll be hearing on the radio that every Lowes and Home Depot in southern California is selling out on pitchforks and torches. What's he going to do?!? The agents will be circling around that closet full of cap space like buzzards. What's he going to do?!?!? |
Couldn't we use our cap space to sign Julius Randle and DLo to make things right again?
Didn't NO put both Randle and Mirotic on the market but only Mirotic had takers? |
I don't know if this is serious or tongue in cheek, given some of the things that people are posting in this thread. The point of the Isiah Thomas comparison is that you could kinda sorta justify a lot of Thomas' moves if you looked at them individually. For example, he dumped draft picks for Eddy Curry. Curry was in a dispute with the Bulls about his heart condition, which ultimately turned out to be a false alarm. Isiah swooped in and picked him up. In hindsight, that was a disaster, because Curry was never very good and the draft picks turned into Wilson Chandler, Joakim Noah, and LaMarcus Aldridge. At the time, though, Thomas could talk himself into it.
That's the sort of scenario that worries me. |
It's a serious solution. You're saying we mismanaged assets by letting JR and DLo go for nothing just for cap space. But, we have cap space to sign them if we want.
We can fix that issue. All we did was lose 1 yr of JR's services to NO and 2 yrs of DLo's services to the Nets.
If they stayed here, we'd have to pay them anyways. What's the problem that can't be rectified? |
Well, sure, we could do that, if Russell and Randle are the pieces you think the front office should pursue this summer. I certainly don't.
Anyway, it would not rectify the problem. The problem is not that we let Russell and Randle go. The problem is that we did not get value in return when we unloaded them. If we re-sign them, we still did not get value when we unloaded them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakerMindLA
Star Player
Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 5344
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: |
Didn't NO put both Randle and Mirotic on the market but only Mirotic had takers? |
The nuisances of their contract situations explains why no one was willing to pay a lot for Randle.
A team that trades for Mirotic gets his bird rights. The bucks could sign Mirotic for up to the max if they really wanted to keep him. For any team over the cap, that is very important and valuable.
Any over the cap team that trades for Randle would struggle to keep him as they could only pay him marginally more than his current contract. Any under the cap team wouldn't want to trade away assets to sign a player they could sign in 3 months anyway. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LakerMindLA wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: |
Didn't NO put both Randle and Mirotic on the market but only Mirotic had takers? |
The nuisances of their contract situations explains why no one was willing to pay a lot for Randle.
A team that trades for Mirotic gets his bird rights. The bucks could sign Mirotic for up to the max if they really wanted to keep him. For any team over the cap, that is very important and valuable.
Any over the cap team that trades for Randle would struggle to keep him as they could only pay him marginally more than his current contract. Any under the cap team wouldn't want to trade away assets to sign a player they could sign in 3 months anyway. |
But is Jules really getting more than 120% of his current 9m/year deal long term? Maybe he is, but I agree with your point. However, if the demand was say a 2nd rounder, and you're a contender in need of a bruiser PF isn't it worth it?
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheBlackMamba
Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 9057
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | LakerMindLA wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: |
Didn't NO put both Randle and Mirotic on the market but only Mirotic had takers? |
The nuisances of their contract situations explains why no one was willing to pay a lot for Randle.
A team that trades for Mirotic gets his bird rights. The bucks could sign Mirotic for up to the max if they really wanted to keep him. For any team over the cap, that is very important and valuable.
Any over the cap team that trades for Randle would struggle to keep him as they could only pay him marginally more than his current contract. Any under the cap team wouldn't want to trade away assets to sign a player they could sign in 3 months anyway. |
But is Jules really getting more than 120% of his current 9m/year deal long term? Maybe he is, but I agree with your point. However, if the demand was say a 2nd rounder, and you're a contender in need of a bruiser PF isn't it worth it? |
2nd rounders are like crack to NBA front offices nowadays, and though I see the value in them, it doesn't necessarily make sense all the time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bard207
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | What I see is "We will treat you like a God if you are a top five player... however if you are anything less... you will be sacrificed for the benefit of said top five player." |
But this has been the case for the Lakers for 30 years.
NVE/Eddie Jones (two of my fave Lakers) were sacrificed at the altar of the great Shaq/Kobe iteration.
Pau/Lamar (guys who earned their place in the Lakers pantheon) were traded for a then-top 3 guy in CP3.
Ariza, who is also one of my fave non-star Laker, was let go and they offered the same deal to Artest (who then helped us win a ring against the Celts, which is always more pleasurable in my book).
So while it sucks, even Dr. Buss signed off on this concept. I just don't like how it went down with Klutch trying to orchestrate a futile exile from the Pels to the Lakers.
It was too transparently obvious that the Pels were not going to trade AD to us but Magic/Rob fell into that trap badly. |
Not sure we can compare historical Laker moves to current process. League was different, players were different, salary cap was different, situation is different.
Lakers were always competitive and were drafting at the end of the round. Not out of the playoffs and drafting top 5 consistently. Players were not organizing their own super teams. Today's players have much more control of the narrative, salary cap and power over franchises. Even the reliance of building around an aging player instead of adding him to an established team is different then a Dr. Buss era move.
Lakers have to stop living in the past and build a "team" now. At this point I am frustrated with the decisions they are making but finding myself having to accept them because of being a fan.
I just want to see a lot less chaos and drama and a roster that is about the "now" instead of the "fantasy future". Would prefer a deeper team with a mix of young and old but even if it is a top heavy team and a bunch a ring chasers for a couple seasons it will have more stability then this cluster**** we are seeing now.
No more excuses. If James is the centerpiece then be the leader he is supposed to be. The final 25 games can be the start of some chemistry or just another pathetic Laker season. Then the real fun begins over the summer. |
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | What I see is "We will treat you like a God if you are a top five player... however if you are anything less... you will be sacrificed for the benefit of said top five player." |
But this has been the case for the Lakers for 30 years.
NVE/Eddie Jones (two of my fave Lakers) were sacrificed at the altar of the great Shaq/Kobe iteration.
Pau/Lamar (guys who earned their place in the Lakers pantheon) were traded for a then-top 3 guy in CP3.
Ariza, who is also one of my fave non-star Laker, was let go and they offered the same deal to Artest (who then helped us win a ring against the Celts, which is always more pleasurable in my book).
So while it sucks, even Dr. Buss signed off on this concept. I just don't like how it went down with Klutch trying to orchestrate a futile exile from the Pels to the Lakers.
It was too transparently obvious that the Pels were not going to trade AD to us but Magic/Rob fell into that trap badly. |
Not sure we can compare historical Laker moves to current process. League was different, players were different, salary cap was different, situation is different.
Lakers were always competitive and were drafting at the end of the round. Not out of the playoffs and drafting top 5 consistently. Players were not organizing their own super teams. Today's players have much more control of the narrative, salary cap and power over franchises. Even the reliance of building around an aging player instead of adding him to an established team is different then a Dr. Buss era move.
Lakers have to stop living in the past and build a "team" now. At this point I am frustrated with the decisions they are making but finding myself having to accept them because of being a fan.
I just want to see a lot less chaos and drama and a roster that is about the "now" instead of the "fantasy future". Would prefer a deeper team with a mix of young and old but even if it is a top heavy team and a bunch a ring chasers for a couple seasons it will have more stability then this cluster**** we are seeing now.
No more excuses. If James is the centerpiece then be the leader he is supposed to be. The final 25 games can be the start of some chemistry or just another pathetic Laker season. Then the real fun begins over the summer. |
We can compare, b/c it's always been their ethos.
Other teams can be content with barely making the playoffs, getting some playoff revenues, and getting a nice revenue sharing check from teams like the Lakers.
You are advocating for fundamentally changing what the Lakers ethos has been for the past 30+ years. They crave stars. They want stars. They keep stars (even when they're hurt). Same Lakers formula.
It's just clunky b/c we were on the path to LBJ/PG13 and none of this would rise to the surface as it is now. We'd be able to have 2 all stars and keep the YUTES (or trade for a 3rd) and things would be ok in La La Land. |
But the difference from the past is that they have started at an extreme low point on assets (Randle draft to today). It is much more tricky to pull off since there is less cushion to accommodate for error and also having to overcome the possibility that other teams have everything fall into place for them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | But the difference from the past is that they have started at an extreme low point on assets (Randle draft to today). It is much more tricky to pull off since there is less cushion to accommodate for error and also having to overcome the possibility that other teams have everything fall into place for them. |
My point is that the ethos remains the same from Dr. Buss, to Jimmy Buss, and now Magic/Jeanie. They want their stars. Dr. Buss had Magic/Shaq/Kobe bridge nearly 25+ years. Jimmy had a diminished Kobe and sought more stars, and the current FO landed LBJ and are trying add more stars.
That's their M.O., for better or worse. It's just tougher to execute the franchise ethos now b/c it seems the rest of league does not value our draft picks very highly.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vancouver Fan
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 17740
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Dr. Laker wrote: | | bluehill wrote: | | Yep, it's not that this can't work, it's that it seems like real long shot. It's the put-it-all-on-red gamble, that I was hoping to avoid after seeing it in Kobe's final years. The upside is great, but so is the downside. |
If anything typifies the Jerry Buss era, it was a willingness to roll the dice!
Biggest example was breaking off negotiations with Shaq and banking on being able to re sign Kobe. He said himself that he was prepared to pick up the pieces and start over if it failed . . . but he took the chance anyway and gambled that the future of the team was with Kobe.
As often happened, he won. |
Except we don't have a 26 year old kobe to bank on.
_________________
Music is my medicine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Judah
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015
Posts: 4759
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BadGuy wrote: | | Let's not forget the idiotic plays Randle provided night in and night out (TOs, charges, etc.). Also, he was out of shape for his entire Lakers tenure until it was a contract season. I regret the FO trading DLo, but 0 regrets with letting go of no IQ Randle. |
Stop it, man. He wasn't out of shape. He just wasn't in outstanding shape, but how many NBA players truly are? And your perception of him as a player is typical of the people who made their minds up about him when he was a rookie. He's improved substantially every year and the ”bull in a China shop” impediment to his game became very minimal after his rookie year. But because the perception was already there, he could get two offensive fouls total in five games and people still said, ’See, Randle is still out of control. Guy hasn't improved at all since his rookie year.’ 
The most shallow talent evaluators are the ones who fail to even recognize when a player has improved because they never revisited their initial perception of that player.
_________________
“Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
- John Piper |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17096
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | bluehill wrote: | | Yep, it's not that this can't work, it's that it seems like real long shot. It's the put-it-all-on-red gamble, that I was hoping to avoid after seeing it in Kobe's final years. The upside is great, but so is the downside. |
If anything typifies the Jerry Buss era, it was a willingness to roll the dice!
Biggest example was breaking off negotiations with Shaq and banking on being able to re sign Kobe. He said himself that he was prepared to pick up the pieces and start over if it failed . . . but he took the chance anyway and gambled that the future of the team was with Kobe.
As often happened, he won. |
Except we don't have a 26 year old kobe to bank on. |
We do, however, have LeBron & a max cap slot. Moreover, as much as I bash our "young core," they're MUCH better than the Chucky Atkins/Tierre Brown/Brian Cook/Luke Walton crew that surrounded Kobe. All he had was Odom after the team "screwed up" by stretching Brian Grant and then "wasted" an asset in Caron Butler . . . until they turned the proceeds of the Butler trade into Pau Gasol.
The Lakers are not a finished object - let Magic get through the summer before lynching him.
_________________
On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vancouver Fan
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 17740
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Dr. Laker wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | bluehill wrote: | | Yep, it's not that this can't work, it's that it seems like real long shot. It's the put-it-all-on-red gamble, that I was hoping to avoid after seeing it in Kobe's final years. The upside is great, but so is the downside. |
If anything typifies the Jerry Buss era, it was a willingness to roll the dice!
Biggest example was breaking off negotiations with Shaq and banking on being able to re sign Kobe. He said himself that he was prepared to pick up the pieces and start over if it failed . . . but he took the chance anyway and gambled that the future of the team was with Kobe.
As often happened, he won. |
Except we don't have a 26 year old kobe to bank on. |
We do, however, have LeBron & a max cap slot. Moreover, as much as I bash our "young core," they're MUCH better than the Chucky Atkins/Tierre Brown/Brian Cook/Luke Walton crew that surrounded Kobe. All he had was Odom after the team "screwed up" by stretching Brian Grant and then "wasted" an asset in Caron Butler . . . until they turned the proceeds of the Butler trade into Pau Gasol.
The Lakers are not a finished object - let Magic get through the summer before lynching him. |
Agree. I haven't gave up totally yet regardless of all moves I've questioned. I just hope that the next move isnt Jimmy Butler/Kemba type FA.
_________________
Music is my medicine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bard207
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | But the difference from the past is that they have started at an extreme low point on assets (Randle draft to today). It is much more tricky to pull off since there is less cushion to accommodate for error and also having to overcome the possibility that other teams have everything fall into place for them. |
My point is that the ethos remains the same from Dr. Buss, to Jimmy Buss, and now Magic/Jeanie. They want their stars. Dr. Buss had Magic/Shaq/Kobe bridge nearly 25+ years. Jimmy had a diminished Kobe and sought more stars, and the current FO landed LBJ and are trying add more stars.
That's their M.O., for better or worse. It's just tougher to execute the franchise ethos now b/c it seems the rest of league does not value our draft picks very highly. |
I know that is their M.O., but it is the Kobe, Dr Buss and 4 - 5 carat diamond philosophy/story in reverse with the Lakers wanting to send out single carat diamonds for a multi carat diamond. Since the FO & LeBron wanted to trade multiple players for one player, then the Lakers themselves hadn't valued their own players that highly. The rest of the league has come to the same conclusion about the young players that the FO & LeBron has come to. I can't fault the rest of the league for that.
If everything was maximized in recent drafts and player development, they either wouldn't have the urgent need to trade for a multi carat diamond or they would have some 2 -3 carat diamonds to send out for the 4 - 5 carat diamond. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
