OFFICIAL KYLE got traded for westbrook KUZMA THREAD
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:04 pm    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Give him 30 games to get his rhythm.

I think this 5 game road trip will do wonders for him.


It's not a rhythm thing, it's a volume thing. After AD and Lebron "eat" the offense is equal opportunity. The days of him getting 15 shots a game are gone.

The inconsistent scoring would be fine if he was making an impact in other ways (Playmaking, rebounding, D). Again, not a rhythm thing.


They need to run some plays for him to get him going.


Q: when we're averaging 133 ppg over the last three games, why do we need to get him going?


Do you expect to average 133 ppg for the season?

If you do, then I could understand your position on the matter.

Me personally? I do not. And i think there is value in having a third option. But you don’t have a third option if you don’t run plays for them.

As far as why, Kuz has a couple moves in particular that allows easy, high percentage looks. That’s generally what we want, and so, I think it would be good to run some of those for him.


The point of my question is that the offense has looked good with guys scoring without having plays run for them, or find other ways to be impactful if they are not. Maybe we don't average 130 all season, but we're a top 5 offense right now. If we have a weakness, it's not having a third guy that can create for himself + others, something that would enable LeBron and AD to catch more rest. Kuzma is not that guy.


Agree with you on our weakness and that Kuzma is not the guy to fill that weakness. But Kuzma, when put in the proper position, is probably the best scorer outside of our big 2. I think it would behoove us to run a few plays for him. Particularly, there will be times where one of the two sit, and that’s where the value of having someone you can run plays for to get buckets can be helpful. Your third option will at times, be your second option.

Fwiw, I also think we should also run some plays for Danny Green.

There is value, to me, in having plays you can run for certain players, catering to their strengths. You clearly disagree, but I think having this is great for the team because it can help take off some of the offensive burden of our 2 stars.

The benefit of having players like LBJ/AD is you only need to run the most effective plays amongst your role players. Lob plays for Dwight, corner 3s for Green, curl cuts for Kuz, etc. Maybe you prefer for those guys to get it out of sheer luck, but I personally like having some additional go to options available depending on who is out on the floor, or when an AD is doubled, etc
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:37 pm    Post subject:

It's not up to the team with the best record to adjust to Kuzma... Kuzma need to figure out how he can help the team.

If he can't, it's too bad for him.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:16 pm    Post subject:

silkwilkes wrote:
It's not up to the team with the best record to adjust to Kuzma... Kuzma need to figure out how he can help the team.

If he can't, it's too bad for him.


I think it's fair to say that it's clear he's trying to fit it...

Not easy to go from being a gunner on a young team with no expectations to a half court, all around player on a championship team/.

Good news: his 3P% is back to rookie level efficiency. He's also clear a better defender that the past and he's putting in effort on that end.

The bad news, he just seems to over think things a little bit. Sometimes stoping mid drive and passing it out instead or making one pass too many.

There will be a point where it all comes together.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject:

silkwilkes wrote:
It's not up to the team with the best record to adjust to Kuzma... Kuzma need to figure out how he can help the team.

If he can't, it's too bad for him.


I take it you’re not much a fan of the team running lob plays for Javale McGee (and at times, Howard) because that is the team adjusting to them and that is not what teams with the best record do?

Me, I like those plays. And I think the exact opposite of you.

I think good teams find ways to maximize the strengths of their role players especially since they won’t get a ton of looks. I wish the team had plays to get Danny Green wide open corner 3s for instance.

I know I know, that is the team adjusting to Green. But I think it’s smart to have plays you can go to, even for your role players.
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pjiddy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:16 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Give him 30 games to get his rhythm.

I think this 5 game road trip will do wonders for him.


It's not a rhythm thing, it's a volume thing. After AD and Lebron "eat" the offense is equal opportunity. The days of him getting 15 shots a game are gone.

The inconsistent scoring would be fine if he was making an impact in other ways (Playmaking, rebounding, D). Again, not a rhythm thing.


They need to run some plays for him to get him going.


Q: when we're averaging 133 ppg over the last three games, why do we need to get him going?


Do you expect to average 133 ppg for the season?

If you do, then I could understand your position on the matter.

Me personally? I do not. And i think there is value in having a third option. But you don’t have a third option if you don’t run plays for them.

As far as why, Kuz has a couple moves in particular that allows easy, high percentage looks. That’s generally what we want, and so, I think it would be good to run some of those for him.


The point of my question is that the offense has looked good with guys scoring without having plays run for them, or find other ways to be impactful if they are not. Maybe we don't average 130 all season, but we're a top 5 offense right now. If we have a weakness, it's not having a third guy that can create for himself + others, something that would enable LeBron and AD to catch more rest. Kuzma is not that guy.


Agree with you on our weakness and that Kuzma is not the guy to fill that weakness. But Kuzma, when put in the proper position, is probably the best scorer outside of our big 2. I think it would behoove us to run a few plays for him. Particularly, there will be times where one of the two sit, and that’s where the value of having someone you can run plays for to get buckets can be helpful. Your third option will at times, be your second option.

Fwiw, I also think we should also run some plays for Danny Green.

There is value, to me, in having plays you can run for certain players, catering to their strengths. You clearly disagree, but I think having this is great for the team because it can help take off some of the offensive burden of our 2 stars.

The benefit of having players like LBJ/AD is you only need to run the most effective plays amongst your role players. Lob plays for Dwight, corner 3s for Green, curl cuts for Kuz, etc. Maybe you prefer for those guys to get it out of sheer luck, but I personally like having some additional go to options available depending on who is out on the floor, or when an AD is doubled, etc


I think another issue is that the plays we would run for Kuz are when Lebron is on the floor. We're struggling to create open looks for guys when we don't have Lebron's gravity. I think that's another reason overall that Kuz has struggled, he's not sharing the court with him as much as he did last year. It all redounds to the primary weakness of creating buckets when Lebron isn't in (and my preseason concern, which hasn't been too problematic yet, of none of our shooters being of the off-screen/curls variety--all C&S dudes. It's easier to run plays for the former).
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:21 pm    Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:
I think another issue is that the plays we would run for Kuz are when Lebron is on the floor. We're struggling to create open looks for guys when we don't have Lebron's gravity. I think that's another reason overall that Kuz has struggled, he's not sharing the court with him as much as he did last year. It all redounds to the primary weakness of creating buckets when Lebron isn't in.


Agree with you on the bolded even though I might be inclined to say "we're scoring 133 ppg and you think we're struggling for looks" haha. Just kidding.

But I actually agree with you on that, so why you would not want to find ways to get high percentage plays for Kuz, or a Danny Green, or lob plays for a big ... it's confusing to me that you would say that's not what a good team does because I think it's the opposite.

(Nevermind, apologies. Someone else said it’s not the team’s job to get high percentage looks for the players lol)
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pjiddy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:33 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
pjiddy wrote:
I think another issue is that the plays we would run for Kuz are when Lebron is on the floor. We're struggling to create open looks for guys when we don't have Lebron's gravity. I think that's another reason overall that Kuz has struggled, he's not sharing the court with him as much as he did last year. It all redounds to the primary weakness of creating buckets when Lebron isn't in.


Agree with you on the bolded even though I might be inclined to say "we're scoring 133 ppg and you think we're struggling for looks" haha. Just kidding.

But I actually agree with you on that, so why you would not want to find ways to get high percentage plays for Kuz, or a Danny Green, or lob plays for a big ... it's confusing to me that you would say that's not what a good team does because I think it's the opposite.

(Nevermind, apologies. Someone else said it’s not the team’s job to get high percentage looks for the players lol)


Yeah, that's what i meant by Kuz just not sharing the floor as much with Lebron anymore. We certainly ran some plays for KCP to get him untracked and now he's filling in much better as a catch & shoot guy. We've been running that lob play he runs with Dwight or AD though almost every game. But at least with KCP, a few buckets is all that's expected of him. No one cares if he only scores 8 points. As long as he's not airballing layups, nobody's complaining.

We could run try to run plays for Kuz when he's in with Lebron. Maybe there's a concern though like "why do we need to run plays for Kuz when everyone is scoring fine with Lebron on the floor? Why do we need to him a 22 point game?" I just think the equal opportunity O going on right now with everyone after Lebron/AD has been too successful. They can't just force feed kuz. It's not like he's been inefficient. He's been fine. But that's the problem: he wants Kuzmania back, and the fans want it too. He's the anti-KCP. The bar is just too high for him to accept a role player position. And given his lack of production elsewhere, it's not even a realistic fit for him.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:52 pm    Post subject:

I think the Vogel strategy is to have several different options each game for who will be “ the third best player” or maybe better put the third leading Laker scorer. Green has had 1-2 games, Kuzma pro about 4 so far. McGee, KCP, Howard, and even Caruso have had those games too. Night to night, you don’t know who will be that 15 ppg player.

What I want most from Kuzma is contributing defense, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals, even when he is not a big impact scoring. Make your open shots, hit your free throws, play with good IQ. That’s all I want to see from him night in, night out.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:58 pm    Post subject:

h2omike wrote:
I think the Vogel strategy is to have several different options each game for who will be “ the third best player” or maybe better put the third leading Laker scorer. Green has had 1-2 games, Kuzma pro about 4 so far. McGee, KCP, Howard, and even Caruso have had those games too. Night to night, you don’t know who will be that 15 ppg player.

What I want most from Kuzma is contributing defense, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals, even when he is not a big impact scoring. Make your open shots, hit your free throws, play with good IQ. That’s all I want to see from him night in, night out.


That’s all we need
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:06 pm    Post subject:

h2omike wrote:
I think the Vogel strategy is to have several different options each game for who will be “ the third best player” or maybe better put the third leading Laker scorer. Green has had 1-2 games, Kuzma pro about 4 so far. McGee, KCP, Howard, and even Caruso have had those games too. Night to night, you don’t know who will be that 15 ppg player.

What I want most from Kuzma is contributing defense, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals, even when he is not a big impact scoring. Make your open shots, hit your free throws, play with good IQ. That’s all I want to see from him night in, night out.


Yeah, my only real concern with Kuzma is the IQ part. He was consistently making at minimum 4-5+ really bad decisions a game for a good stretch. He's cleaned it up greatly and you don't see him getting lost with the ball or getting lost defensively lately as much. As long as he hits his shots at even a decent rate most teams will continue to respect it. I'm hoping he keeps this version up and just occasionally has those hot shooting nights while other nights he's just hustling and making the right plays. That's all we need from him this season, just be even a neutral or slight plus most nights and not a negative.

He has endless knowledge around him this season from the players to the coaching staff so there's no excuses. If he steps it up even a bit more then he recently has over the rest of the season we're nearly unbeatable imo especially with Bradley and Rondo both healthy.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:52 pm    Post subject:

Just finished listening to one of the LFR podcasts from last week. Guys should go and listen to it. Pretty much covers how and why to get Kuzma going. It’s the episode “The Next Phase of the Lakers’ Season” from less than a week ago.

People are confusing guy scoring points with running designed plays. And it probably doesn’t seem like we need to run plays for anyone other than AD or Lebron but especially without a secondary playmaker, I think having them in our back pocket would be a good thing.

I’m surprised at the resistance to having plays designed to get Danny Green open corner 3s, Kuz some floaters off cuts, or lob passes to Dwight. Why would you not want to have some plays in the playbook for those strengths?
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poppies
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:19 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

I’m surprised at the resistance to having plays designed to get Danny Green open corner 3s, Kuz some floaters off cuts, or lob passes to Dwight. Why would you not want to have some plays in the playbook for those strengths?


Maybe so you can keep those options as a post-season shake up after everyone thinks they know your book? Although that's probably unrealistic, I would guess you can't just whip those plays out and that they take time to work up into a viable option.
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pjiddy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:39 pm    Post subject:

poppies wrote:
ringfinger wrote:

I’m surprised at the resistance to having plays designed to get Danny Green open corner 3s, Kuz some floaters off cuts, or lob passes to Dwight. Why would you not want to have some plays in the playbook for those strengths?


Maybe so you can keep those options as a post-season shake up after everyone thinks they know your book? Although that's probably unrealistic, I would guess you can't just whip those plays out and that they take time to work up into a viable option.


Something that Pete aka GT aka LFR has mentioned is that Lebron wants to just go out there and make things happen. He's either gonna score himself or suck a bunch of attention up and create an open shot or lane to the basket for you and it's on you to hit it. He's not much different than Kobe in this scenario (although obviously Kobe elected to shoot it himself a little more frequently). Plays are for when the offense is bogging down and/or the defense is just stopping this free-wheeling offense. Well...that hasn't been an issue as of late has it? Early on we were having very clear first quarter struggles and this coincided with KCP's struggles, so the timing of "let's run plays" and "let's run plays to get KCP his confidence back" coincided. But now the offense is humming, so why do we need to run plays for Kuz when the rest of the team is scoring fine?

Someone above said Vogel plans to have a different third guy every night. I don't think that's the case necessarily. i think that's a result of

A) someone hitting more of their open shots and
B) creating more offense themselves through their own opportunism (turning steals into fast breaks). It's why Caruso has been been coming on strong lately. The shot may come and go, but that defensive activity seems to generate buckets for himself or others at least a couple times every game. KCP and Green have done this for themselves as well although Green is more likely to hit ahead than finish the fast break himself.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:36 am    Post subject:

I think it’s interesting that some folks are saying why run plays for Kuz when we are scoring well? And the answer is because we haven’t always been able to score well and the best time to build confidence is when things are going well so that you have some things you know you can go to.

There will come a time where LBJ has an off night, or AD has an off night, or there is an injury, or maybe another team matches up with our 2 stars well. The biggest mistake a good team can make is to say there’s nothing we need to improve on because we are doing well.

I’ve noticed we have been running plays for our centers lately. Lob plays. KCP has run a few of them, AB, Rondo, have all of late been getting our athletic centers good looks. I think this is good. I am not sure why anyone would say, why are we running plays for McGee when we are scoring so well.

Running plays for a player isn’t solely intended to benefit the player. It helps the team. If you have the ability to get Green open corner threes, Kuz some floaters off of cuts, and lob dunks for our bigs, that also keeps the defense honest and opens things up for our 2 stars to freewheel a little easier. They aren’t going to score 80 pts for you every night and we shouldn’t want them to.

The question for me is ... if you could have effective plays that you can run to get high percentage looks for your role players, why would you decline to run them?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:55 am    Post subject:

Running plays for Kyle Kuzma? Right... How many plays did the Lakers run for Rick Fox back in the day? You are almost as delusional about Kuzma's role as Kuzma himself.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:06 am    Post subject:

Carushow wrote:
Running plays for Kyle Kuzma? Right... How many plays did the Lakers run for Rick Fox back in the day? You are almost as delusional about Kuzma's role as Kuzma himself.


That’s not nice. Do you apply the same logic to others that think we should run plays for him? GT, Darius, and the like?

These are guys that know a lot more than I do about the game.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:19 am    Post subject:

Carushow wrote:
Running plays for Kyle Kuzma? Right... How many plays did the Lakers run for Rick Fox back in the day? You are almost as delusional about Kuzma's role as Kuzma himself.


We don't call other posters "delusional" here, it's taken as an insult. Consider this a friendly warning.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:00 am    Post subject:

Elite teams don’t adjust their game plan to accommodate role players. A role player must adjust their game to fit into the elite team.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:21 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Carushow wrote:
Running plays for Kyle Kuzma? Right... How many plays did the Lakers run for Rick Fox back in the day? You are almost as delusional about Kuzma's role as Kuzma himself.


We don't call other posters "delusional" here, it's taken as an insult. Consider this a friendly warning.


Got it, sorry. What I'm trying to say is that a player of Kuzma's caliber can't expect a team that has LeBron and AD on it to to run their offense through him. He has to adapt to the situation, not the other way around.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:23 am    Post subject:

Carushow wrote:
Running plays for Kyle Kuzma? Right... How many plays did the Lakers run for Rick Fox back in the day? You are almost as delusional about Kuzma's role as Kuzma himself.


I read your posts about Lebron too. You're starting off with a bang.
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:30 am    Post subject:

Carushow wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Carushow wrote:
Running plays for Kyle Kuzma? Right... How many plays did the Lakers run for Rick Fox back in the day? You are almost as delusional about Kuzma's role as Kuzma himself.


We don't call other posters "delusional" here, it's taken as an insult. Consider this a friendly warning.


Got it, sorry. What I'm trying to say is that a player of Kuzma's caliber can't expect a team that has LeBron and AD on it to to run their offense through him. He has to adapt to the situation, not the other way around.


Ok. So you dislike it when we run lob plays to McGee and/or Howard?

I think you have “running plays” confused with “running offense through him”.

Entirely different. We run a lob play for McGee at times. We don’t run the offense through McGee. See the difference there?
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:32 am    Post subject:

kobe_4_mvp wrote:
Elite teams don’t adjust their game plan to accommodate role players. A role player must adjust their game to fit into the elite team.


So like with the other poster. Are we not elite?

We run lob plays for our athletic, role player bigs.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:35 am    Post subject:

Carushow wrote:
Running plays for Kyle Kuzma? Right... How many plays did the Lakers run for Rick Fox back in the day? You are almost as delusional about Kuzma's role as Kuzma himself.


Cause "back in the day" phil ran the triangle offense which is based on a read and react system rather than playcalling
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Carushow wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Carushow wrote:
Running plays for Kyle Kuzma? Right... How many plays did the Lakers run for Rick Fox back in the day? You are almost as delusional about Kuzma's role as Kuzma himself.


We don't call other posters "delusional" here, it's taken as an insult. Consider this a friendly warning.


Got it, sorry. What I'm trying to say is that a player of Kuzma's caliber can't expect a team that has LeBron and AD on it to to run their offense through him. He has to adapt to the situation, not the other way around.


Ok. So you dislike it when we run lob plays to McGee and/or Howard?

I think you have “running plays” confused with “running offense through him”.

Entirely different. We run a lob play for McGee at times. We don’t run the offense through McGee. See the difference there?


Well, the lob plays for AD, McGee or Howard create high% scoring-opportunities. A wide open 3 or layup for Kuzma is not a high% scoring-opportunity at this point. He seems to do best when the clock is expiring and he has a hand in his face, and for that you don't need to run plays.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:24 am    Post subject:

poppies wrote:
ringfinger wrote:

I’m surprised at the resistance to having plays designed to get Danny Green open corner 3s, Kuz some floaters off cuts, or lob passes to Dwight. Why would you not want to have some plays in the playbook for those strengths?


Maybe so you can keep those options as a post-season shake up after everyone thinks they know your book? Although that's probably unrealistic, I would guess you can't just whip those plays out and that they take time to work up into a viable option.


I was thinking the same thing. We shouldn't unleash our full arsenal until we get to the playoffs...unless we start faltering. What we have right now with AD/LJ doing their things, and then with the other Lakers contributing particularly on defense, is working just fine.
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