OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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noahp45
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


Are you sure you are watching the game?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


I don't think you ever will.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


I didn’t realize the average NBA PG ends up in the top ten in assists per game as a rookie.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


He's not a dribble the ball for 15 seconds, find someone curling and then pass.

He is the ultimate hockey assist guy too swiftly moving the ball to the open guy. But his vision is amazing.

I just don't think you'll see what we see. I feel you've already determined what a 21 year old's ceiling is at this point.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:56 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


Did you see the full court pass to Lebron under the basket, how it was placed perfectly on the opposite side of the defender, and was in perfect rhythm for Lebron to catch and continue to the basket for the And 1? He's one of a few who can make that pass.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject:

55 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


Did you see the full court pass to Lebron under the basket, how it was placed perfectly on the opposite side of the defender, and was in perfect rhythm for Lebron to catch and continue to the basket for the And 1? He's one of a few who can make that pass.


He's not necessarily flashy but he's very efficient and effective. We are accustomed to that Magic Johnson flair but that's not necessarily how Lonzo does it (though he has his moments too).
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:01 am    Post subject:

people want to call Lonzo a bust based on his offense

but I have always said in the NBA, offensive skills are the easiest to develop/improve over time

hes only played 76 career NBA games and still only 21. He now getting more minutes and if he his minutes stay consistent hes going to improve

When you listen to his interviews you can see he pays attention to detail and basketball IQ is top notch
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


He's not a dribble the ball for 15 seconds, find someone curling and then pass.

He is the ultimate hockey assist guy too swiftly moving the ball to the open guy. But his vision is amazing.

I just don't think you'll see what we see. I feel you've already determined what a 21 year old's ceiling is at this point.


This is the most underappreciated about his game . The no dribble pass for easy transition basket directly or indirectly. I never saw anyone with that vision. It’s like he’s scanning everyone in a split second.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


He's not a dribble the ball for 15 seconds, find someone curling and then pass.

He is the ultimate hockey assist guy too swiftly moving the ball to the open guy. But his vision is amazing.

I just don't think you'll see what we see. I feel you've already determined what a 21 year old's ceiling is at this point.


This is the most underappreciated about his game . The no dribble pass for easy transition basket directly or indirectly. I never saw anyone with that vision. It’s like he’s scanning everyone in a split second.


He's the antithesis of Rondo in certain respects. Rondo dribbles a lot and finds passing opportunities.

Lonzo moves the ball to create the opportunity or he moves the ball along. Doesn't seem like having the ball in his hands for extended times in the half court, which is perfect playing alongside a guy like LBJ.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:

This is the most underappreciated about his game . The no dribble pass for easy transition basket directly or indirectly. I never saw anyone with that vision. It’s like he’s scanning everyone in a split second.


Two passes stand out in the closing minutes of the 4th: that rebound with the outlet to LBJ before he even came back down and the swing pass to Hart for that dagger 3. Neither of those were average NBA PG type passes. They're a step or two ahead of everyone passes. I think they're under appreciated by people who are expecting someone to dribble around and then make some behind the back, no-look pass to a cutter. They don't look fancy, but few guys can anticipate as well as Zo does. Zo is setting guys up without that dribble and probe.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:28 am    Post subject:

Lonzo is more of a simple smart pass kind of guy. He's not as creative as Nash or Simmons but as long as he's setting up other players for good shots that's all that matters.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:40 am    Post subject:

Lonzo is improving.
It must be because he is being more aggressive. Looking for his shot and score. This opens up his passing opportunities.
Lonzo is still adjusting to the NBA.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:42 am    Post subject:

BynumForThree wrote:
Lonzo is more of a simple smart pass kind of guy. He's not as creative as Nash or Simmons but as long as he's setting up other players for good shots that's all that matters.


When B43 isn't trashing Zo, you know Zo's doing something right.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject:

noahp45 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


Are you sure you are watching the game?


That's why I take nothing he says seriously about Lonzo. He's trashed him from day 1 and when you can't even see the obvious elite component of his game, you're blind to anything else than what you want to see.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject:

RG73 wrote:
CRoost wrote:

This is the most underappreciated about his game . The no dribble pass for easy transition basket directly or indirectly. I never saw anyone with that vision. It’s like he’s scanning everyone in a split second.


Two passes stand out in the closing minutes of the 4th: that rebound with the outlet to LBJ before he even came back down and the swing pass to Hart for that dagger 3. Neither of those were average NBA PG type passes. They're a step or two ahead of everyone passes. I think they're under appreciated by people who are expecting someone to dribble around and then make some behind the back, no-look pass to a cutter. They don't look fancy, but few guys can anticipate as well as Zo does. Zo is setting guys up without that dribble and probe.


The passes you mentioned are the same ones I was gonna post about. The average PG doesn't have that type of recognition in midair. Those passes while not flashy are elite playmaking.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:10 am    Post subject:

Best point guard we’ve had in decades. His defense is stifling. His passes are smart. That in the air pass to McGee two games ago was something else. He presses full court, he’ll contest three different players on defense in one play, he’s quick and can take it to the rack. With Lebron’s help this kid could be special.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
Best point guard we’ve had in decades. His defense is stifling. His passes are smart. That in the air pass to McGee two games ago was something else. He presses full court, he’ll contest three different players on defense in one play, he’s quick and can take it to the rack. With Lebron’s help this kid could be special.


I love Zo!
But in general our PGs in the past post Magic have not been great
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject:

When he keeps his turnovers in check. He can be scary good.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I just don't think you'll see what we see. I feel you've already determined what a 21 year old's ceiling is at this point.


It didn't take long for this to turn into a string of ad hominem responses, but that's okay. I'm not talking about his ceiling. I'm talking about what he is doing right now. There is more evidence than just the eyeball test. After a couple decent games, his latest ORPM number is up to a -1.17. That is partly due to his shooting, which appears to be regressing. But if he is such an elite, valuable passer, it should be having a more tangible effect in the numbers. Ball is averaging 6 assists per 36 with an assist% of 21.5. Some of that is a by-product of playing with Lebron, but still, the numbers do not jump out at you. When I look at the leaguewide reactions to Ball, I see polite interest, but none of the gushing you see here. So for me, the eyeball test matches the numbers and external indicia, not the gushing on this board.

I'm not going to tell you that he can't become a better player. Of course he can. I'm telling you that, in the here and now, you might just be seeing what you want to see instead of what is really there.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:30 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I just don't think you'll see what we see. I feel you've already determined what a 21 year old's ceiling is at this point.


It didn't take long for this to turn into a string of ad hominem responses, but that's okay. I'm not talking about his ceiling. I'm talking about what he is doing right now. There is more evidence than just the eyeball test. After a couple decent games, his latest ORPM number is up to a -1.17. That is partly due to his shooting, which appears to be regressing. But if he is such an elite, valuable passer, it should be having a more tangible effect in the numbers. Ball is averaging 6 assists per 36 with an assist% of 21.5. Some of that is a by-product of playing with Lebron, but still, the numbers do not jump out at you. When I look at the leaguewide reactions to Ball, I see polite interest, but none of the gushing you see here. So for me, the eyeball test matches the numbers and external indicia, not the gushing on this board.

I'm not going to tell you that he can't become a better player. Of course he can. I'm telling you that, in the here and now, you might just be seeing what you want to see instead of what is really there.


I have faith and have seen a lot of good things.

I don't disagree he has some elite weaknesses.

But he has already demonstrated elite defense/floor vision right now. So I take the good with the bad for now considering he's so young and has a lot of room to grow.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:37 pm    Post subject:

Loved the dunk last night. Dude needs to attack the rim with force.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I just don't think you'll see what we see. I feel you've already determined what a 21 year old's ceiling is at this point.


It didn't take long for this to turn into a string of ad hominem responses, but that's okay. I'm not talking about his ceiling. I'm talking about what he is doing right now. There is more evidence than just the eyeball test. After a couple decent games, his latest ORPM number is up to a -1.17. That is partly due to his shooting, which appears to be regressing. But if he is such an elite, valuable passer, it should be having a more tangible effect in the numbers. Ball is averaging 6 assists per 36 with an assist% of 21.5. Some of that is a by-product of playing with Lebron, but still, the numbers do not jump out at you. When I look at the leaguewide reactions to Ball, I see polite interest, but none of the gushing you see here. So for me, the eyeball test matches the numbers and external indicia, not the gushing on this board.

I'm not going to tell you that he can't become a better player. Of course he can. I'm telling you that, in the here and now, you might just be seeing what you want to see instead of what is really there.


That's because I have finally deduced you have never actually played basketball.
After reading your posts over the years (Painfully, reluctantly) and doing my darn best to not respond this is a moment I just can't pass up- I've figured you out guy.
You seem to really know your stats, how the salary cap works, and basically are a well versed analytics guy.
But players from the pro's on down to the darn weekly game I play at each and every week for the last 25 years- all see a guy in Lonzo that would be fun to play WITH: always play with your head up, cause he'll find you, and don't worry if you get picked, he'll pick up your man. Basically....
A PERFECT TEAMATE ON THE FLOOR
No stats will ever show that.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:54 pm    Post subject:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:03 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
CRoost wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


He's not a dribble the ball for 15 seconds, find someone curling and then pass.

He is the ultimate hockey assist guy too swiftly moving the ball to the open guy. But his vision is amazing.

I just don't think you'll see what we see. I feel you've already determined what a 21 year old's ceiling is at this point.


This is the most underappreciated about his game . The no dribble pass for easy transition basket directly or indirectly. I never saw anyone with that vision. It’s like he’s scanning everyone in a split second.


He's the antithesis of Rondo in certain respects. Rondo dribbles a lot and finds passing opportunities.

Lonzo moves the ball to create the opportunity or he moves the ball along. Doesn't seem like having the ball in his hands for extended times in the half court, which is perfect playing alongside a guy like LBJ.


Well said. Lonzo's assists would be higher if he were used as a hub. And I don't even mean as a dribble the ball hub, but just as a guy they go to when the offense breaks down and they set something up again. As it stands now, he rarely gets the ball back when the offense breaks down. We have Lebron to be that crutch.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
CRoost wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
His defense and passing are elite traits.

He's building from that foundation.

I can't say BI/Kuz/Hart have any elite traits that are developed at this point.

If you're focusing on his offense, no dispute there. It's a major work in progress.


I am yet to see anything in his passing that exceeds the norms for an NBA point guard. I keep waiting to see it, because so many of you insist that he has "elite court vision" and generational basketball IQ. I see him making the same sorts of passes as the average NBA point guard. Occasionally, he makes a great, high leverage pass. But so do all of the other NBA quality point guards. I want to believe that all of you are right and I am wrong, but when I watch the games, I just don't see what you see.


He's not a dribble the ball for 15 seconds, find someone curling and then pass.

He is the ultimate hockey assist guy too swiftly moving the ball to the open guy. But his vision is amazing.

I just don't think you'll see what we see. I feel you've already determined what a 21 year old's ceiling is at this point.


This is the most underappreciated about his game . The no dribble pass for easy transition basket directly or indirectly. I never saw anyone with that vision. It’s like he’s scanning everyone in a split second.


He's the antithesis of Rondo in certain respects. Rondo dribbles a lot and finds passing opportunities.

Lonzo moves the ball to create the opportunity or he moves the ball along. Doesn't seem like having the ball in his hands for extended times in the half court, which is perfect playing alongside a guy like LBJ.


Well said. Lonzo's assists would be higher if he were used as a hub. And I don't even mean as a dribble the ball hub, but just as a guy they go to when the offense breaks down and they set something up again. As it stands now, he rarely gets the ball back when the offense breaks down. We have Lebron to be that crutch.


This is why he works well with LBJ b/c as a hockey assist passer with LBJ you have a lot of floor vision.
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