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Worthy42
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 Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I've watched RJ outside of Kidd. Let's not forget the 2004 Olympics. Horrible... </walton> |
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stojan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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im not sure i would do such a trade but i remeber a few times that new jersey pointed that jefferson is their franchise player and that he would be the last player they would trade on that team, yes they would rather trade carter and kidd b4 him.
the nets staff rate him very highly which is why they wouldnt trade him for odom.
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KA_2
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, Odom doesn't do a single thing better than Jefferson except rebound.
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Fan0Bynum17
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| how about mihm and odom? |
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tgf5
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Joined: 18 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| With RJ and no Odom Kobe would be handling the ball a lot more and we saw how bad it was a few games back with this team... |
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KA_2
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | With RJ and no Odom Kobe would be handling the ball a lot more and we saw how bad it was a few games back with this team... |
What? RJ is a better ball handler than Odom and not much worse of a decision maker. Besides, who know how well RJ would do in the triangle. What we do know for certain; he'd play infinitely better D and score more points at a much more efficient rate night-in and night-out.
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tgf5
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| KA_2 wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | With RJ and no Odom Kobe would be handling the ball a lot more and we saw how bad it was a few games back with this team... |
What? RJ is a better ball handler than Odom and not much worse of a decision maker. Besides, who know how well RJ would do in the triangle. What we do know for certain; he'd play infinitely better D and score more points at a much more efficient rate night-in and night-out. |
RJ is a better ball handler than Odom?  Infinitely better D? |
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KA_2
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:01 am Post subject: |
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[quote="tgf5"] | KA_2 wrote: | | RJ is a better ball handler than Odom? |
Yeah, pretty much anyone who has watched him (i.e. not you) would agree. Odom is a good ball handler for his size, nothing more.
| Quote: | | Infinitely better D? |
Just about the biggest "Duh" in history of basketball.
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tgf5
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:15 am Post subject: |
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[quote="KA_2"] | tgf5 wrote: | | KA_2 wrote: | | RJ is a better ball handler than Odom? |
Yeah, pretty much anyone who has watched him (i.e. not you) would agree. Odom is a good ball handler for his size, nothing more.
| Quote: | | Infinitely better D? |
Just about the biggest "Duh" in history of basketball. |
Do you know me to assume I don't watch Net games? Who would agree? Anyone? Please list names. Kidd and Carter do 95% of the dribbling in NJ.
Infinitely better D? You're just being hyperbolic now. Probably don't have much to back it up. Lamar at least has the option of guarding bigs as well. |
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THE_SHOES
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | KA_2 wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | With RJ and no Odom Kobe would be handling the ball a lot more and we saw how bad it was a few games back with this team... |
What? RJ is a better ball handler than Odom and not much worse of a decision maker. Besides, who know how well RJ would do in the triangle. What we do know for certain; he'd play infinitely better D and score more points at a much more efficient rate night-in and night-out. |
RJ is a better ball handler than Odom? Infinitely better D? |
Isn't he special? His hate is at such a place that he just starts rambling like a maniac making absolutely zip for sense... Jumped in here and hasn't made one statement of fact yet. It is almost fun watching to see how far he is going to go!
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KA_2
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:20 am Post subject: |
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| tgf5 wrote: | | Do you know me to assume I don't watch Net games? Who would agree? Anyone? Please list names. Kidd and Carter do 95% of the dribbling in NJ. |
Litterally speaking, no, Kidd and Carter do not do 95% of the dribbling. Additionally, them doing the dribbling is irrelavent to my point, which is that RJ > Odom as a dribbler. Obviously RJ isn't going to be doing the majority of dribbling on the Nets when you have superb ball handlers like Kidd and Carter and less set offense, whereas Odom is the primary ball handler by default in an offense that dictates he handle the ball for a certain amount of time on certain areas of the floor.
| Quote: | | Infinitely better D? You're just being hyperbolic now. |
Fine, clearly better defensive impact is what I should have said. You got me!
| Quote: | | Probably don't have much to back it up. Lamar at least has the option of guarding bigs as well. |
True, he does have the option of guarding bigs. If what you call Odom defending big men "guarding".
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KA_2
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| THE_SHOES wrote: | | Isn't he special? His hate is at such a place that he just starts rambling like a maniac making absolutely zip for sense... Jumped in here and hasn't made one statement of fact yet. It is almost fun watching to see how far he is going to go! |
You can't really prove ball handling ability or defensive impact, there is nothing "factual" about it. Though like anything, common sense is needed, and common sense says RJ is a superior defender and ball handler. Just as common sense would say Ron Artest is a superior defender and Allen Iverson is a superior ball handler to Odom. If you knew a thing about statistics or evaluating talent (Fisher=God doesn't fly with thinking basketball fans) you'd have known all this.
Next time, I suggest delving into an argument only when you aren't totally outmatched, outplayed, or just plain totally out of your league. That's sage advice you should heed, as it's really starting to become sad (and boring) handing your ass to you on a daily basis.
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THE_SHOES
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:46 am Post subject: |
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[quote="KA_2"] | THE_SHOES wrote: | | Isn't he special? His hate is at such a place that he just starts rambling like a maniac making absolutely zip for sense... Jumped in here and hasn't made one statement of fact yet. It is almost fun watching to see how far he is going to go! |
| Quote: | You can't really prove ball handling ability or defensive impact, there is nothing "factual" about it. Though like anything, common sense is needed,
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Great, this was my point in the first place! Right here is where your handing me of my ass ended... Common sense my ass! Common baseless hate!
| Quote: | and common sense says RJ is a superior defender and ball handler.
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See the pattern continues to form here. Your common sense? Highly questionable...
| Quote: | Just as common sense would say Ron Artest is a superior defender and Allen Iverson is a superior ball handler to Odom. If you knew a thing about statistics or evaluating talent (Fisher=God doesn't fly with thinking basketball fans) you'd have known all this
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You should go back and look at the stats when Odom and, Ronnie faced each other in the east. It will open your biased eyes to the truth. LO battled Ronnie to nothing more or, less than a draw. They took turns doing a number on each other. Your hate would never allow you to look at the facts so, your nerve surpasses only your incredible arrogance once again... You can stop lying about me claiming Fisher to be a God to, but since you believe you are a baskeball guru it is hard to imagine that even you could'nt see that Fisher was more than adequate playing next to Shaq and kobe and, you would be made to look as silly as you do here trying to convince coaches around the league that wasn't true.
| Quote: | Next time, I suggest delving into an argument only when you aren't totally outmatched, outplayed, or just plain totally out of your league. That's sage advice you should heed, as it's really starting to become sad (and boring) handing your ass to you on a daily basis.
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My ass is fine and, still intact. You talk a lot of (bleep) but, you're just another one constantly talk'n loud and ain't sayin (bleep)... As for your boredom... That is what the problem with haters is all about. You get bored and you start complaining...
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KA_2
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| THE_SHOES wrote: | | Great, this was my point in the first place! |
You never had a point. You said I didn't make "one statement of fact", which is nonsensical in a discussion such as this.
| Quote: | | Right here is where your handing me of my ass ended... Common sense my ass! Common baseless hate! |
No, just common sense. See my Artest and AI examples.
| Quote: | | See the pattern continues to form here. Your common sense? Highly questionable... |
No, pretty much accepted among thinking basketball fans. Again, I don't expect you to know any better, you don't watch any ball outside of the Lakers and probably don't even get that muchin Taiwan.
| Quote: | | You should go back and look at the stats when Odom and, Ronnie faced each other in the east. It will open your biased eyes to the truth. LO battled Ronnie to nothing more or, less than a draw. They took turns doing a number on each other. Your hate would never allow you to look at the facts so, your nerve surpasses only your incredible arrogance once again... |
Ronnie? Who in the hell is "Ronnie"? I hope you mean Richard Jefferson. Nah, you probably didn't, further supporting my point that you don't have any observational data to make any conclusions about RJ's game. Additionally, their head to head battles are irrelavent, that is not the issue at hand, their dribbling skills and defensive impact are. Think.
| Quote: | | You can stop lying about me claiming Fisher to be a God to, but since you believe you are a baskeball guru it is hard to imagine that even you could'nt see that Fisher was more than adequate playing next to Shaq and kobe and, you would be made to look as silly as you do here trying to convince coaches around the league that wasn't true. |
Coaches around the league knew then, and know now, that Derek Fisher was, at best, an average starting NBA point guard. Yet you defended this dude like he was your father. Pathetic.
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bounty
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| THE_SHOES wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | KA_2 wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | With RJ and no Odom Kobe would be handling the ball a lot more and we saw how bad it was a few games back with this team... |
What? RJ is a better ball handler than Odom and not much worse of a decision maker. Besides, who know how well RJ would do in the triangle. What we do know for certain; he'd play infinitely better D and score more points at a much more efficient rate night-in and night-out. |
RJ is a better ball handler than Odom? Infinitely better D? |
Isn't he special? His hate is at such a place that he just starts rambling like a maniac making absolutely zip for sense... Jumped in here and hasn't made one statement of fact yet. It is almost fun watching to see how far he is going to go! |
This is THE_SHOES at his best. Someone suggests making the team better and hes against it b/c his love of LO is greater than that of team. RJ on a team with much better talent Kidd, VC ,Kristic still manages to get very solid #'s. He is waaaaay better defensively that LO, always on the other teams best player. His RBs, are not quite LO's but nontheless very strong. Same with asst. Pts, while competeing with VC, Kristic and even KIDD are ideal next to someone like #8. LO is only cosidered having good handles b/c hes 6'10. If you watch games you will notice PJ is taking more and more of that initiator role away from him. RJ moves and grinds into position w/out the ball. He crashes the boards. Come on shoes TEAM not LO
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THE_SHOES
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| KA_2 wrote: | | THE_SHOES wrote: | | Great, this was my point in the first place! |
You never had a point. You said I didn't make "one statement of fact", which is nonsensical in a discussion such as this.
| Quote: | | Right here is where your handing me of my ass ended... Common sense my ass! Common baseless hate! |
No, just common sense. See my Artest and AI examples.
| Quote: | | See the pattern continues to form here. Your common sense? Highly questionable... |
No, pretty much accepted among thinking basketball fans. Again, I don't expect you to know any better, you don't watch any ball outside of the Lakers and probably don't even get that muchin Taiwan.
| Quote: | | You should go back and look at the stats when Odom and, Ronnie faced each other in the east. It will open your biased eyes to the truth. LO battled Ronnie to nothing more or, less than a draw. They took turns doing a number on each other. Your hate would never allow you to look at the facts so, your nerve surpasses only your incredible arrogance once again... |
Ronnie? Who in the hell is "Ronnie"? I hope you mean Richard Jefferson. Nah, you probably didn't, further supporting my point that you don't have any observational data to make any conclusions about RJ's game. Additionally, their head to head battles are irrelavent, that is not the issue at hand, their dribbling skills and defensive impact are. Think.
| Quote: | | You can stop lying about me claiming Fisher to be a God to, but since you believe you are a baskeball guru it is hard to imagine that even you could'nt see that Fisher was more than adequate playing next to Shaq and kobe and, you would be made to look as silly as you do here trying to convince coaches around the league that wasn't true. |
Coaches around the league knew then, and know now, that Derek Fisher was, at best, an average starting NBA point guard. Yet you defended this dude like he was your father. Pathetic. |
| Quote: | | Just as common sense would say Ron Artest is a superior defender |
say what? You didn't say this?! You know so damned much but, didn't know that you can actually stretch the name to Ronnie? Who else the hell could it be that was matched up in the east?
That's right, because just like now nothing has changed you irrittating as hell haters overemphasize every damned thing certain players do. Fisher did plenty of great things for the Lakers but, people like yourself build his whole career behind the mistakes. It gives me great pleasure to let "you people" know your outta your mind. It works to, you can't get over it and the dude has been gone a year. Bingo! Mission accomplished...
yeah you were wrong with this comparison because it was nothing more than your frigging opinion. You can pretend you know more about ball all you like it ain't substantiating your "opinion" not one more bit. You spend all the time you want watching. A lot of people have been watching for as long as you have and still don't know (bleep). You can forget using that as a measure. Hell, if that were true you wouldn't be in here telling everybody how your so confident that you know that Richard Jefferson would just be the (bleep) playing with the Lakers. You have no idea and, why would you?
Some of you guys kill me trying to pass your word of as the undisputed gospel truth...
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kobe_somebody_odom
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I gotta agree with THE_SHOES
Odom>Jefferson
You put Odom next to Carter and Kidd and Kristic, and they are about 31-18 right now. Odom is better now than he was in Miami but the West is harder for him no doubt.
17-10-6 would probably be his stas in the East. And he can player power-forward in the East effectively, while guarding bigger SF's.
Jefferson on the Lakers and you have, Smush,Kobe,Jefferson,Cook,Mihm
This team is probably where we are right now, or about where Utah is right now. We lose a lot of rebounds and assist, as well as a person to play PF during injuries, foul trouble, etc... We gain in points and probably clutchness. Defense is a wash, because Jefferson is NOT a good defender. He is average just like Odom. Jefferson will most likely do a little better than Odom on SF's though.
Jefferson on the Lakers- 16-6-5. Is he cheaper than Odom?
By the way, I take Odom's stats in the West over RJ's in the East |
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bounty
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| kobe_somebody_odom wrote: | I gotta agree with THE_SHOES
Odom>Jefferson
You put Odom next to Carter and Kidd and Kristic, and they are about 31-18 right now. Odom is better now than he was in Miami but the West is harder for him no doubt.
17-10-6 would probably be his stas in the East. And he can player power-forward in the East effectively, while guarding bigger SF's.
Jefferson on the Lakers and you have, Smush,Kobe,Jefferson,Cook,Mihm
This team is probably where we are right now, or about where Utah is right now. We lose a lot of rebounds and assist, as well as a person to play PF during injuries, foul trouble, etc... We gain in points and probably clutchness. Defense is a wash, because Jefferson is NOT a good defender. He is average just like Odom. Jefferson will most likely do a little better than Odom on SF's though.
Jefferson on the Lakers- 16-6-5. Is he cheaper than Odom?
By the way, I take Odom's stats in the West over RJ's in the East |
Thats funny. LO has proved to be avg at best offensively. We have heard all season he needs the ball to be effective yet in NJ thats kidds job. RJ gets those #'s on a team with superior talent. LO was given the 2nd option role yet still cant function as that. RJ would take defensive pressure off Kobe. LO doesnt. RJ attacks like Kobe, no standing around Like LO. RJ decisions seem more matter a fact as oppose to LO's. Werent LO's stats similar to now than when he was in the east? RJ>LO
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tgf5
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| bounty wrote: | | THE_SHOES wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | KA_2 wrote: | | tgf5 wrote: | | With RJ and no Odom Kobe would be handling the ball a lot more and we saw how bad it was a few games back with this team... |
What? RJ is a better ball handler than Odom and not much worse of a decision maker. Besides, who know how well RJ would do in the triangle. What we do know for certain; he'd play infinitely better D and score more points at a much more efficient rate night-in and night-out. |
RJ is a better ball handler than Odom? Infinitely better D? |
Isn't he special? His hate is at such a place that he just starts rambling like a maniac making absolutely zip for sense... Jumped in here and hasn't made one statement of fact yet. It is almost fun watching to see how far he is going to go! |
This is THE_SHOES at his best. Someone suggests making the team better and hes against it b/c his love of LO is greater than that of team. RJ on a team with much better talent Kidd, VC ,Kristic still manages to get very solid #'s. He is waaaaay better defensively that LO, always on the other teams best player. His RBs, are not quite LO's but nontheless very strong. Same with asst. Pts, while competeing with VC, Kristic and even KIDD are ideal next to someone like #8. LO is only cosidered having good handles b/c hes 6'10. If you watch games you will notice PJ is taking more and more of that initiator role away from him. RJ moves and grinds into position w/out the ball. He crashes the boards. Come on shoes TEAM not LO |
True, RJ has Kidd and Carter. Kristic? Scores 12 ppg. Carter is the other offensive option. Kidd is on and off but will always get the assists. There is no other offensive option. Have you seen their bench? It's pretty crappy too. RJ does a good job rebounding because he's a SF and their center and PF aren't exactly dominant. |
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KA_2
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| THE_SHOES wrote: | | say what? You didn't say this?! You know so damned much but, didn't know that you can actually stretch the name to Ronnie? Who else the hell could it be that was matched up in the east? |
Wait, let me get this straight; you were actually arguing that Lamar Odom is close to as good as Ron Artest based a on few matchups they had? LMFAO. Sad, just sad.
| Quote: | | That's right, because just like now nothing has changed you irrittating as hell haters overemphasize every damned thing certain players do. Fisher did plenty of great things for the Lakers but, people like yourself build his whole career behind the mistakes. It gives me great pleasure to let "you people" know your outta your mind. It works to, you can't get over it and the dude has been gone a year. Bingo! Mission accomplished... |
Haha, "misson accomplished", yeah sure. It's just funny to reminisce about how you once used to jock Derek Fisher, that's all. Someone who was at best an average starting NBA PG for a couple seasons who nearly cost the Lakers a 3rd title with his defense in the 02 WCF. That is average no matter how you slice it, and the fact that you jocked this man like he was really good tells us all we need to know about the extent of your basketball knowledge. Which is zero.
| Quote: | | yeah you were wrong with this comparison because it was nothing more than your frigging opinion. You can pretend you know more about ball all you like it ain't substantiating your "opinion" not one more bit. You spend all the time you want watching. A lot of people have been watching for as long as you have and still don't know (bleep). You can forget using that as a measure. Hell, if that were true you wouldn't be in here telling everybody how your so confident that you know that Richard Jefferson would just be the (bleep) playing with the Lakers. You have no idea and, why would you? |
My opinion means more than yours. You don't really watch basketball or understand it that well, and probably don't get many (any?) games in Taiwan.
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THE_SHOES
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| KA_2 wrote: | | THE_SHOES wrote: | | say what? You didn't say this?! You know so damned much but, didn't know that you can actually stretch the name to Ronnie? Who else the hell could it be that was matched up in the east? |
Wait, let me get this straight; you were actually arguing that Lamar Odom is close to as good as Ron Artest based a on few matchups they had? LMFAO. Sad, just sad.
| Quote: | | That's right, because just like now nothing has changed you irrittating as hell haters overemphasize every damned thing certain players do. Fisher did plenty of great things for the Lakers but, people like yourself build his whole career behind the mistakes. It gives me great pleasure to let "you people" know your outta your mind. It works to, you can't get over it and the dude has been gone a year. Bingo! Mission accomplished... |
Haha, "misson accomplished", yeah sure. It's just funny to reminisce about how you once used to jock Derek Fisher, that's all. Someone who was at best an average starting NBA PG for a couple seasons who nearly cost the Lakers a 3rd title with his defense in the 02 WCF. That is average no matter how you slice it, and the fact that you jocked this man like he was really good tells us all we need to know about the extent of your basketball knowledge. Which is zero.
| Quote: | | yeah you were wrong with this comparison because it was nothing more than your frigging opinion. You can pretend you know more about ball all you like it ain't substantiating your "opinion" not one more bit. You spend all the time you want watching. A lot of people have been watching for as long as you have and still don't know (bleep). You can forget using that as a measure. Hell, if that were true you wouldn't be in here telling everybody how your so confident that you know that Richard Jefferson would just be the (bleep) playing with the Lakers. You have no idea and, why would you? |
My opinion means more than yours. You don't really watch basketball or understand it that well, and probably don't get many (any?) games in Taiwan. |
You should be careful speaking on matters you know nothing about. If you're ignorant as to what goes on in Taiwan you should maybe leave that alone. 5 networks cover the NBA in Taiwan. Since you feel that you're superior for some odd reason on the matter of basketball you should be aware of the fact that the Chinese market is being worked on by the NBA 24/7...
Anyway you continue to make a mess of this argument in an attempt to camoflouge a weak attempt to get the upper hand. You are the one who brought up Artest in the first place.
That you use Fisher in your arguments reinforces the fact that you don't know (bleep).
You're a "so called fan" that gets more of a rush slamming Lakers than getting behind them. Fine, and ta hell with your miserable word... I pity you...
I'm not impressed with your hate and your constant display of it makes you look more like a troll than you can imagine...
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KA_2
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| THE_SHOES wrote: | | You should be careful speaking on matters you know nothing about. If you're ignorant as to what goes on in Taiwan you should maybe leave that alone. 5 networks cover the NBA in Taiwan. Since you feel that you're superior for some odd reason on the matter of basketball you should be aware of the fact that the Chinese market is being worked on by the NBA 24/7... |
That's nice.
| Quote: | | Anyway you continue to make a mess of this argument in an attempt to camoflouge a weak attempt to get the upper hand. You are the one who brought up Artest in the first place. |
Yes, I brought up Artest as an example of a player who is clearly a better defender than Odom. Yet for some reason, you actually tried to claim that Odom was as good, or comparable, to Artest? That kind of bunk I didn't expect. Congrats.
| Quote: | | That you use Fisher in your arguments reinforces the fact that you don't know (bleep). |
It only reinforces that you used to jock an average at best NBA player like he was great. Fact. I have the Sky threads owning your bunk handy.
| Quote: | You're a "so called fan" that gets more of a rush slamming Lakers than getting behind them. Fine, and ta hell with your miserable word... I pity you...
I'm not impressed with your hate and your constant display of it makes you look more like a troll than you can imagine... |
Without a doubt, I'm a bigger Laker fan than you (who doesn't even live anywhere near LA or the Lakers) and have been watching them I'm sure for quite a bit longer.
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THE_SHOES
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 29556
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:32 am Post subject: |
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KA_2 I do give you credit in one area though. You are by far the rudest poster on the site and, if being the best of anything is considered virtuous, you my friend have reason to celebrate...
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"According to ESPN.com's conference projections, the Lakers will finish 12th in the West, which prompted Bryant to tweet earlier this offseason, "12th I see.." |
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tgf5
Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 11581
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| KA_2 is full of it and doesn't know when to quit assuming things. |
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Michlake
Star Player
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 3696
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 2:19 am Post subject: |
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I would do the deal because Jefferson is a better defender
but then you would need to also trade for a guy to pick up Odom's boards. I would not trust Kwame or Mihm to pick up the slack. |
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