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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:26 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
The European union doesn't exist in a parallel universe where universal healthcare works yet somehow it cannot work in the Western hemisphere.

I get that we provide much of their defense, but there still is no excuse that we cannot come up with an answer for something that works in every other developed nation.

The other argument I see all the time is that we have the best healthcare in the world. It's true we have the best for the wealthy... but we rank 36th in life expectancy, while the so called socialist nations all have longer life expectancy in spite of what some people claim is a better system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Watch cable news advertisements... watch network news advertisements... endless ads for insurance and pharmaceutical companies. CNN doesn't want a national healthcare system where all that money is removed from their ecosystem.

If every other developed nation can come up with a solution to provide universal healthcare... then it's not beyond our grasp.

How do they calculate that astronomical cost anyway? Using the actual price of insulin or an epipen... or using the inflated prices that make it seem impossible.

If Scandinavia, the UK, Canada, Japan, Australia, France, Germany can come up with universal healthcare... if Israel who we give millions in aid to every year can provide universal healthcare... then so should we find a way.


We agree here. There’s the complication of unwinding our current system and getting people to move toward the better system. Remember, we can’t get about 15 percent of our population to get vaccinated and about 45% to wear masks to save their own lives. So it’s not a wave your hand and presto. And that’s before you ge to the logistical underpinnings. So the question is do you want to move forward or just scream and watch it to the other way? (That’s not specifically to you). There are ways we can improve and move in the right direction. You don’t turn down improvement that doesn’t preclude what you want because it’s not all of what you want. Obamacare has done a lot for a lot of people who would t have healthcare otherwise. And that’s with ten years of a party in power trying to kill it. We got like one year of Obamacare and then the GOP took over. Next week is the first time the Dems have power in 11 years. Maybe let’s see if we can get going on making things better, and if we can get to single payer, we are happy. If we only make things a lot better, that’s better than where we are. It’s a march my friend. One step In front of the other.


Good to find some common ground.

I was petrified that Trump would champion single payer and call it Trump care. He would have won the election and probably been able to get the votes to overturn the limit on a third term.
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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:33 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
BILBJH wrote:

I agree... I hated how he made fun of the disabled reporter... his grab them by the (bleep) comment... he already was a disgusting person.

But the progressives were fed up with some of HRC's BS also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dY77j6uBHI

Again, I admit I was wrong in retrospect, which is why I voted for the troubling Biden... but it was a lesser of evils situation for me.


What news sources do you like? Just wondering.


I watch CNN, MSNBC, and the big three networks... I will watch Fox News to see how the other side is thinking although I can't stomach Hannity or Carlson just will check on their regular news. I have a Twitter feed where I follow most major news outlets. I really try to see all sides... I don't believe in echo chambers.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:36 am    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
Those countries, especially EU countries, didn't have to transform their private insurance systems into state run healthcare systems. They started from 0 after the most destructive conflict in human history and wanted their populations to have a strong social safety net.

We'd have to do it 80 years later with a system already in place and tens of millions of people involved within that system. It's a lot more complicated than "let's get rid of the private healthcare system except for plastic surgeries." While it might work in the long run, it would be disastrous in the short term.

That's why a public option is the better way to go, both practically and politically speaking.


Fellow progressives (myself included) shouldn't die on the "ban all private insurance" hill.
Affordable, universal coverage (any way we can get there) should be the goal right now.

And big picture wise. People who prefer Bernie or Warren's platform from the primaries (myself included). They have to remember, the ONLY way to get where we want to go is pushing the Democratic party left from the inside. There's a misconception that if the Dem party loses enough, they'll eventually just have to embrace democratic socialism. That's a myth. When Dems lose, Republicans drag the country backward. And it's more likely Dems will drift to the center to pick up voters.

And there is nobody to blame for Bernie losing to Biden in the primaries. The voters just weren't there.. Just have to keep organizing, fundraising, and advocating for the platform we want. Things are moving that direction. Eventually we'll get there. Funny thing is once we do have a President who 100% supports Bernie or Warren's 2020 platform, it won't be enough. We'll want more. And the cycle will continue.
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Last edited by kikanga on Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:38 am    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
The European union doesn't exist in a parallel universe where universal healthcare works yet somehow it cannot work in the Western hemisphere.

I get that we provide much of their defense, but there still is no excuse that we cannot come up with an answer for something that works in every other developed nation.

The other argument I see all the time is that we have the best healthcare in the world. It's true we have the best for the wealthy... but we rank 36th in life expectancy, while the so called socialist nations all have longer life expectancy in spite of what some people claim is a better system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Watch cable news advertisements... watch network news advertisements... endless ads for insurance and pharmaceutical companies. CNN doesn't want a national healthcare system where all that money is removed from their ecosystem.

If every other developed nation can come up with a solution to provide universal healthcare... then it's not beyond our grasp.

How do they calculate that astronomical cost anyway? Using the actual price of insulin or an epipen... or using the inflated prices that make it seem impossible.

If Scandinavia, the UK, Canada, Japan, Australia, France, Germany can come up with universal healthcare... if Israel who we give millions in aid to every year can provide universal healthcare... then so should we find a way.


We agree here. There’s the complication of unwinding our current system and getting people to move toward the better system. Remember, we can’t get about 15 percent of our population to get vaccinated and about 45% to wear masks to save their own lives. So it’s not a wave your hand and presto. And that’s before you ge to the logistical underpinnings. So the question is do you want to move forward or just scream and watch it to the other way? (That’s not specifically to you). There are ways we can improve and move in the right direction. You don’t turn down improvement that doesn’t preclude what you want because it’s not all of what you want. Obamacare has done a lot for a lot of people who would t have healthcare otherwise. And that’s with ten years of a party in power trying to kill it. We got like one year of Obamacare and then the GOP took over. Next week is the first time the Dems have power in 11 years. Maybe let’s see if we can get going on making things better, and if we can get to single payer, we are happy. If we only make things a lot better, that’s better than where we are. It’s a march my friend. One step In front of the other.


Good to find some common ground.

I was petrified that Trump would champion single payer and call it Trump care. He would have won the election and probably been able to get the votes to overturn the limit on a third term.


That would not have been a winner for him. His base has been propagandized heavily against it. He might as well support BLM. The misconception is that most people want it. It’s popular to some degree conceptually if you word it carefully, but the majority don’t want to give up their current system and pay taxes for “government healthcare”. To be fair, a number of them do t know that Medicare is the government
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:39 am    Post subject:

That’s kind of one of those echo chambers you talked about. There’s a group of people that think free college and M4A is something everyone is salivating for. There’s a reason it isn’t winning elections. Americans are a strange breed.
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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:44 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
The European union doesn't exist in a parallel universe where universal healthcare works yet somehow it cannot work in the Western hemisphere.

I get that we provide much of their defense, but there still is no excuse that we cannot come up with an answer for something that works in every other developed nation.

The other argument I see all the time is that we have the best healthcare in the world. It's true we have the best for the wealthy... but we rank 36th in life expectancy, while the so called socialist nations all have longer life expectancy in spite of what some people claim is a better system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Watch cable news advertisements... watch network news advertisements... endless ads for insurance and pharmaceutical companies. CNN doesn't want a national healthcare system where all that money is removed from their ecosystem.

If every other developed nation can come up with a solution to provide universal healthcare... then it's not beyond our grasp.

How do they calculate that astronomical cost anyway? Using the actual price of insulin or an epipen... or using the inflated prices that make it seem impossible.

If Scandinavia, the UK, Canada, Japan, Australia, France, Germany can come up with universal healthcare... if Israel who we give millions in aid to every year can provide universal healthcare... then so should we find a way.


We agree here. There’s the complication of unwinding our current system and getting people to move toward the better system. Remember, we can’t get about 15 percent of our population to get vaccinated and about 45% to wear masks to save their own lives. So it’s not a wave your hand and presto. And that’s before you ge to the logistical underpinnings. So the question is do you want to move forward or just scream and watch it to the other way? (That’s not specifically to you). There are ways we can improve and move in the right direction. You don’t turn down improvement that doesn’t preclude what you want because it’s not all of what you want. Obamacare has done a lot for a lot of people who would t have healthcare otherwise. And that’s with ten years of a party in power trying to kill it. We got like one year of Obamacare and then the GOP took over. Next week is the first time the Dems have power in 11 years. Maybe let’s see if we can get going on making things better, and if we can get to single payer, we are happy. If we only make things a lot better, that’s better than where we are. It’s a march my friend. One step In front of the other.


Good to find some common ground.

I was petrified that Trump would champion single payer and call it Trump care. He would have won the election and probably been able to get the votes to overturn the limit on a third term.


That would not have been a winner for him. His base has been propagandized heavily against it. He might as well support BLM. The misconception is that most people want it. It’s popular to some degree conceptually if you word it carefully, but the majority don’t want to give up their current system and pay taxes for “government healthcare”. To be fair, a number of them do t know that Medicare is the government


It's all about the labels... the Covid aid package is filled with corporate welfare... I'm sure most big business made sure to take the lions share of government aid and no one calls it socialism.

He just calls it Trump care and no one would remember what he said about socialism anymore. I'm sorry to say they are that gullible. Especially before the Capitol fiasco.

The obstacle would more likely be that his corporate backers would bail on him.

At any rate, I'm glad it's too late for him to even try a stunt like that.

Let's hope the Dems can continue to improve and upgrade on it this term.
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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:50 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Wilt wrote:
Those countries, especially EU countries, didn't have to transform their private insurance systems into state run healthcare systems. They started from 0 after the most destructive conflict in human history and wanted their populations to have a strong social safety net.

We'd have to do it 80 years later with a system already in place and tens of millions of people involved within that system. It's a lot more complicated than "let's get rid of the private healthcare system except for plastic surgeries." While it might work in the long run, it would be disastrous in the short term.

That's why a public option is the better way to go, both practically and politically speaking.


Fellow progressives (myself included) shouldn't die on the "ban all private insurance" hill.
Affordable, universal coverage (any way we can get there) should be the goal right now.

And big picture wise. People who prefer Bernie or Warren's platform from the primaries (myself included). They have to remember, the ONLY way to get where we want to go is pushing the Democratic party left from the inside. There's a misconception that if the Dem party loses enough, they'll eventually just have to embrace democratic socialism. That's a myth. When Dems lose, Republicans drag the country backward. And it's more likely Dems will drift to the center to pick up voters.

And there is nobody to blame for Bernie losing to Biden in the primaries. The voters just weren't there.. Just have to keep organizing, fundraising, and advocating for the platform we want. Things are moving that direction. Eventually we'll get there. Funny thing is once we do have a President who 100% supports Bernie or Warren's 2020 platform, it won't be enough. We'll want more. And the cycle will continue.


If you didn't see what happened, you weren't watching closely enough.

There was no pivotal moment where Biden gave an inspiring speech and won the hearts of voters. Clyburn along with CNN and MSNBC decided that Bernie was too extreme and they painted him as someone who would destroy not only the party but most down ballot candidates. Have you ever even heard of down ballot candidates regularly discussed until this election?

No, it was a media hit job combined with Clyburn's political machinery that changed the tide of the election almost overnight. Biden was losing in a landslide before that. It was a master class in manufacturing consent.
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kikanga
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:50 am    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
I watch CNN, MSNBC, and the big three networks... I will watch Fox News to see how the other side is thinking although I can't stomach Hannity or Carlson just will check on their regular news. I have a Twitter feed where I follow most major news outlets. I really try to see all sides... I don't believe in echo chambers.


Maybe check out Sam Seder. He's does a show Mon-Fri on NBC's Peacock app and youtube. He's a good mix of progressive and pragmatic. You might like him. He's well informed. Been a guest MSNBC multiple times and has even guest hosted on MSNBC. But he's far from being a Democrat "corporate shill".
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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:54 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
I watch CNN, MSNBC, and the big three networks... I will watch Fox News to see how the other side is thinking although I can't stomach Hannity or Carlson just will check on their regular news. I have a Twitter feed where I follow most major news outlets. I really try to see all sides... I don't believe in echo chambers.


Maybe check out Sam Seder. He's does a show Mon-Fri on NBC's Peacock app and youtube. He's a good mix of progressive and pragmatic. You might like him. He's well informed. Been a guest MSNBC multiple times and has even guest hosted on MSNBC. But he's far from being a Democrat "corporate shill".


Thanks, I'll check it out. I have Peacock.
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kikanga
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:02 am    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
If you didn't see what happened, you weren't watching closely enough.

There was no pivotal moment where Biden gave an inspiring speech and won the hearts of voters. Clyburn along with CNN and MSNBC decided that Bernie was too extreme and they painted him as someone who would destroy not only the party but most down ballot candidates. Have you ever even heard of down ballot candidates regularly discussed until this election?

No, it was a media hit job combined with Clyburn's political machinery that changed the tide of the election almost overnight. Biden was losing in a landslide before that. It was a master class in manufacturing consent.

There were definitely forces pushing against Bernie and for Biden.
Chris Matthews lost his job over it. And rightfully so.

But, if you add up the support for the progressive candidates in the primary. From start to finish. They never carried 50% or more of the polling. Clyburn, CNN, and MSNBC weren't the reason why voters in my age range 20-30 didn't show up enough on Super Tuesday. And Biden and other closer to center Democrats maintained the majority of the African American vote from start to finish.

Hey, Bernie started a movement and garnered a massive amount of support NOBODY would've predicted pre-2016. He's legitimately a hero for the cause. But we just don't have the votes to run the Democratic party yet. But we're getting there. The Congressional Progressive Caucus continues to grow. And 2024 is definitely in play in terms of someone from that caucus getting the nomination.

One day Omar may have to vote Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for President.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:18 am    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Wilt wrote:
Those countries, especially EU countries, didn't have to transform their private insurance systems into state run healthcare systems. They started from 0 after the most destructive conflict in human history and wanted their populations to have a strong social safety net.

We'd have to do it 80 years later with a system already in place and tens of millions of people involved within that system. It's a lot more complicated than "let's get rid of the private healthcare system except for plastic surgeries." While it might work in the long run, it would be disastrous in the short term.

That's why a public option is the better way to go, both practically and politically speaking.


Fellow progressives (myself included) shouldn't die on the "ban all private insurance" hill.
Affordable, universal coverage (any way we can get there) should be the goal right now.

And big picture wise. People who prefer Bernie or Warren's platform from the primaries (myself included). They have to remember, the ONLY way to get where we want to go is pushing the Democratic party left from the inside. There's a misconception that if the Dem party loses enough, they'll eventually just have to embrace democratic socialism. That's a myth. When Dems lose, Republicans drag the country backward. And it's more likely Dems will drift to the center to pick up voters.

And there is nobody to blame for Bernie losing to Biden in the primaries. The voters just weren't there.. Just have to keep organizing, fundraising, and advocating for the platform we want. Things are moving that direction. Eventually we'll get there. Funny thing is once we do have a President who 100% supports Bernie or Warren's 2020 platform, it won't be enough. We'll want more. And the cycle will continue.


If you didn't see what happened, you weren't watching closely enough.

There was no pivotal moment where Biden gave an inspiring speech and won the hearts of voters. Clyburn along with CNN and MSNBC decided that Bernie was too extreme and they painted him as someone who would destroy not only the party but most down ballot candidates. Have you ever even heard of down ballot candidates regularly discussed until this election?

No, it was a media hit job combined with Clyburn's political machinery that changed the tide of the election almost overnight. Biden was losing in a landslide before that. It was a master class in manufacturing consent.


This is another of those doctrines that just ain’t so. Iowa and New Hampshire are the first two primaries (Iowa used to be a caucus but thankfully those things are going away) and as such get outlandish coverage and impact despite being small and not very representative states (both being more rural and way whiter than America).

Bernie’s plan (according to his own people) was to win a plurality (less than a majority but a larger number than anyone else) due to a large number of viable mainstream Dems splitting the vote. He then planned on arguing that it would be unfair for the mainstream delegates to get behind one mainstream candidate and instead nominate the one with the most going in. And he was off to a good start through those first two and Nevada.

Biden’s strategy was based on winning the more diverse states starting with South Carolina, after which the hope was that the other candidates would bow out and allow him to go head to head with Bernie down the stretch. Seeing how Biden and the rest of the candidates are actual democrats, it stands to reason that when it became apparent Bernie might lead going into a brokered convention if they all hung in, they got out and endorsed Biden. Biden then went on to defeat Bernie handily head to head (the part the Bernie people leave out or treat as something the media ordered and people just went along).

The simple fact is more democrats preferred Biden to Bernie, just as they preferred Hillary. Turning it into a rigged system is very much like what’s going on now. Yes Biden had inside advantages in terms of support endorsements and ability to convince others to drop out. That’s because he’s been a member of the party for many decades. He wasn’t a guy using their primary while vowing to take them over by revolution. A lot of democrats aren’t real impressed by that. Some are. But not nearly enough.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:23 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
If you didn't see what happened, you weren't watching closely enough.

There was no pivotal moment where Biden gave an inspiring speech and won the hearts of voters. Clyburn along with CNN and MSNBC decided that Bernie was too extreme and they painted him as someone who would destroy not only the party but most down ballot candidates. Have you ever even heard of down ballot candidates regularly discussed until this election?

No, it was a media hit job combined with Clyburn's political machinery that changed the tide of the election almost overnight. Biden was losing in a landslide before that. It was a master class in manufacturing consent.

There were definitely forces pushing against Bernie and for Biden.
Chris Matthews lost his job over it. And rightfully so.

But, if you add up the support for the progressive candidates in the primary. From start to finish. They never carried 50% or more of the polling. Clyburn, CNN, and MSNBC weren't the reason why voters in my age range 20-30 didn't show up enough on Super Tuesday. And Biden and other closer to center Democrats maintained the majority of the African American vote from start to finish.

Hey, Bernie started a movement and garnered a massive amount of support NOBODY would've predicted pre-2016. He's legitimately a hero for the cause. But we just don't have the votes to run the Democratic party yet. But we're getting there. The Congressional Progressive Caucus continues to grow. And 2024 is definitely in play in terms of someone from that caucus getting the nomination.

One day Omar may have to vote Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for President.


If AOC is the democratic nominee running against a Republican, she will have my vote. This isn’t hard people. She’s not my favorite on a number of fronts but these choices aren’t some struggle. The worst democratic candidate is better than the Republican nominee.

Btw, I’d be happy to vote for Abrams. She’s a progressive but meets the test of understanding how things work. She doesn’t destroy other seats to aggrandize herself and her q rating. And she does the work in the lances that win the congress and the White House for you. In the battleground states and districts. I’m not against progressives. I’m against dilettantes and dividers and those who are not about pragmatic policy and rule. I am an unapologetic what can you get done guy.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:08 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I voted for Stein last time because I couldn't stand the idea of HRC being our first woman President.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:11 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
“I voted for stein because I couldn’t stand the idea of HRC becoming the first woman President”, is exactly what I’m getting at. That’s so indefensible on any rational moral or political level as to obviate pretty much any dressing around it. It’s what made the trump administration, something that is many orders of magnitude worse than the worst fever dreams of a Hillary administration, a reality. It’s a level of ignorance or denial of political and human reality that is hard to overstate.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:11 am    Post subject:

Working with Shannon Watts on a Guns4None policy rollout. If you don't support Guns4None then you're a corporate shill complacent, if not outright supportive, of mass American death.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:15 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
If you didn't see what happened, you weren't watching closely enough.

There was no pivotal moment where Biden gave an inspiring speech and won the hearts of voters. Clyburn along with CNN and MSNBC decided that Bernie was too extreme and they painted him as someone who would destroy not only the party but most down ballot candidates. Have you ever even heard of down ballot candidates regularly discussed until this election?

No, it was a media hit job combined with Clyburn's political machinery that changed the tide of the election almost overnight. Biden was losing in a landslide before that. It was a master class in manufacturing consent.

There were definitely forces pushing against Bernie and for Biden.
Chris Matthews lost his job over it. And rightfully so.

But, if you add up the support for the progressive candidates in the primary. From start to finish. They never carried 50% or more of the polling. Clyburn, CNN, and MSNBC weren't the reason why voters in my age range 20-30 didn't show up enough on Super Tuesday. And Biden and other closer to center Democrats maintained the majority of the African American vote from start to finish.

Hey, Bernie started a movement and garnered a massive amount of support NOBODY would've predicted pre-2016. He's legitimately a hero for the cause. But we just don't have the votes to run the Democratic party yet. But we're getting there. The Congressional Progressive Caucus continues to grow. And 2024 is definitely in play in terms of someone from that caucus getting the nomination.

One day Omar may have to vote Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez for President.

Those "forces" were Democratic primary voters.

Chris Matthews was a sex pest and hack finally fired on pretense. "Forces." For (bleep)'s sake. Chris Matthews was "forces." FOH.

ETA: no Obama endorsed Biden before Super Tuesday. No Clinton endorsed Biden before Super Tuesday. Kamala Harris didn't endorse Biden before Super Tuesday. The former mayor of the 4th largest city in Indiana and a Minnesota Senator most known for throwing staplers at interns dropped out and endorsed Biden before Super Tuesday.

If Bernie couldn't beat that, he wasn't a winning candidate.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:35 am    Post subject:

Quote:
No one could have known just how horrible Trump would have been


Hillary Clinton - June 2016

Quote:
Hillary Clinton delivered a lacerating rebuke on Thursday of her likely Republican opponent, Donald J. Trump, declaring that he was hopelessly unprepared and temperamentally unfit to be commander in chief. Electing him, she said, would be a “historic mistake.”

Speaking in a steady, modulated tone but lobbing some of the most fiery lines of her presidential campaign, Mrs. Clinton painted Mr. Trump as a reckless, childish and uninformed amateur who was playing at the game of global statecraft.

“This is not someone who should ever have the nuclear codes,” she said, “because it’s not hard to imagine Donald Trump leading us into a war just because somebody got under his very thin skin.”


Quote:
“He believes we can treat the U.S. economy like one of his casinos,” she said.


Quote:
Mr. Trump “doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about,” Mrs. Clinton said at one point. “Donald doesn’t see the complexity,” she said at another. “This isn’t reality television,” she said of a Trump presidency. “This is actual reality.”


Quote:
“I’ll leave it to the psychiatrists to explain his affection for tyrants,” she said. “I just wonder how anyone could be so wrong about who America’s real friends are.”


Quote:
“He has said that he would order our military to carry out torture and the murder of civilians who are related to suspected terrorists, even though those are war crimes,” Mrs. Clinton said. “He says he doesn’t have to listen to our generals or our admirals, our ambassadors and other high officials, because he has, quote, ‘a very good brain.’”

“He also said, ‘I know more about ISIS than the generals do, believe me.’ You know what?” she continued. “I don’t believe him.”


Quote:
Mr. Trump took out in newspapers in 1987, during the Reagan administration, “saying that America lacked a backbone and that the world was, you guessed it, laughing at us.”

“You’ve got to wonder why somebody who fundamentally has so little confidence in America and has felt that way for at least 30 years wants to be our president,” she said.


Quote:
Now, just imagine if you can. Donald Trump sitting in the Oval Office, the next time America faces a crisis. Imagine him being in charge when your jobs and savings are at stake. Is this who you want to lead us in an emergency? Someone thin skinned and quick to anger who’d likely be on Twitter attacking reporters or bringing the whole regulatory system down on his critics when he should be focused on fixing what’s wrong? Would he even know what to do?


Quote:
Making Donald Trump our president would undo much of the progress we’ve made and put our economy at risk and beyond that, this election will say something about who we are as a people. Donald Trump believes in the worst of us. He thinks we’re fearful, not confident that we favor division not unity, walls not bridges and yesterday not tomorrow.


Anyone paying attention to Donald Trump's history knew it would be very, very bad.
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ribeye
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:35 am    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:


I voted for Stein last time because I couldn't stand the idea of HRC being our first woman President.


Wow, I just saw this referenced. Please explain exactly what it was that caused you to feel this strongly. I have asked many why they hate Hillary and I've never received a rational answer based on facts or her history. I just didn't like her but I can't explain why is a piss-poor answer when the alternative was a mob boss, con-man, egomaniacal, narcissist. So, though your statement may not go quite so far, it does share some or much of the sentiment.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:40 am    Post subject:

It's amazing how some of you really believe that voters come up with the ideas of how to vote for themselves as opposed to outside monetized forces combined with data mining.

https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/winning-vs-spending?cycle=2020

Whether it's the car you buy, the soap you use, the food you eat... a huge part of the decision has been made for you. Why do you think Coca Cola or McDonald's still pay for ads after years of creating brand awareness?

You can say you came up with all the ideas yourself... and sure, we all have some personal volition... but directly or indirectly by shows or news, or even music videos we are subtly being influenced by money. Unless you are one of those rare individuals who went off of the grid, never watches tv or surfs the net and just reads books all day.

90% of the candidates who spend the most money win. That's Steph Curry or Steve Nash shooting a free throw certainty.

We live in a plutocracy.. not a true democracy.
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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:47 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
BILBJH wrote:


I voted for Stein last time because I couldn't stand the idea of HRC being our first woman President.


Wow, I just saw this referenced. Please explain exactly what it was that caused you to feel this strongly. I have asked many why they hate Hillary and I've never received a rational answer based on facts or her history. I just didn't like her but I can't explain why is a piss-poor answer when the alternative was a mob boss, con-man, egomaniacal, narcissist. So, though your statement may not go quite so far, it does share some or much of the sentiment.


I said unless I lived in a swing state... but you all continue to go off because I disliked the way the DNC ran their campaign.
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ChefLinda
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:49 am    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
It's amazing how some of you really believe that voters come up with the ideas of how to vote for themselves as opposed to outside monetized forces combined with data mining.

https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/winning-vs-spending?cycle=2020

Whether it's the car you buy, the soap you use, the food you eat... a huge part of the decision has been made for you. Why do you think Coca Cola or McDonald's still pay for ads after years of creating brand awareness?

You can say you came up with all the ideas yourself... and sure, we all have some personal volition... but directly or indirectly by shows or news, or even music videos we are subtly being influenced by money. Unless you are one of those rare individuals who went off of the grid, never watches tv or surfs the net and just reads books all day.

90% of the candidates who spend the most money win. That's Steph Curry or Steve Nash shooting a free throw certainty.

We live in a plutocracy.. not a true democracy.


And you need to include yourself in the psychologically influenced group because many of the statements you've made are inaccurate talking points that have been pushed out and fully ingested.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:58 am    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
In retrospect it was a poor decision, but I don't think it was wrong for me to want the first female President to be a person I admired.


I hate to pile on, but in addition to what others have said, when I read this I see an undercurrent of misogyny. Why would you be prioritizing attributes of the first WOMAN President? You should be prioritizing attributes of the 45th President, period -- because none of what you prioritize for the first WOMAN President matters when that person is behind the resolute desk and making decisions.

That said, I'd love to do a deep dive of why you didn't "admire" Clinton -- separate objective facts from propaganda, and separate objective attributes from misogynistic ones.
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

If AOC is the democratic nominee running against a Republican, she will have my vote. This isn’t hard people. She’s not my favorite on a number of fronts but these choices aren’t some struggle. The worst democratic candidate is better than the Republican nominee.

Btw, I’d be happy to vote for Abrams. She’s a progressive but meets the test of understanding how things work. She doesn’t destroy other seats to aggrandize herself and her q rating. And she does the work in the lances that win the congress and the White House for you. In the battleground states and districts. I’m not against progressives. I’m against dilettantes and dividers and those who are not about pragmatic policy and rule. I am an unapologetic what can you get done guy.


Stacey Abrams check out all and I mean all the boxes, progressive checked, able to garner vote from the whole democratic tent checked (she's basically Biden PLUS Clyburn PLUS AOC powered voting drive), 'young' checked, intelligent/drama free/POC/woman, I mean Biden then Kamala then Abrams would be great. Let see what's next is for her
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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:01 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
It's amazing how some of you really believe that voters come up with the ideas of how to vote for themselves as opposed to outside monetized forces combined with data mining.

https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/winning-vs-spending?cycle=2020

Whether it's the car you buy, the soap you use, the food you eat... a huge part of the decision has been made for you. Why do you think Coca Cola or McDonald's still pay for ads after years of creating brand awareness?

You can say you came up with all the ideas yourself... and sure, we all have some personal volition... but directly or indirectly by shows or news, or even music videos we are subtly being influenced by money. Unless you are one of those rare individuals who went off of the grid, never watches tv or surfs the net and just reads books all day.

90% of the candidates who spend the most money win. That's Steph Curry or Steve Nash shooting a free throw certainty.

We live in a plutocracy.. not a true democracy.


And you need to include yourself in the psychologically influenced group because many of the statements you've made are inaccurate talking points that have been pushed out and fully ingested.


I'm sure I make mistakes and if you see one, make sure to quote me and point it out and I will try to respond. Many of you already have and some of you have made good counterpoints.

I'm not writing a PhD dissertation for peer review, I'm posting my opinions on a public message board.

On the other hand some of you state your opinions with absolute certainty and it's not like each one has been documented with sources from political science experts. More likely it's quotes from the same media that is owned by corporate interests. Why does Bezos buy the Washington Post when he's shown no real interest in expressing his political views?

All of our opinions including mine have been influenced by money.

But when I watch CNN and realize I can memorize entire State Farm, GEICO, Progressive and Liberty Mutual Ads... and know what banking reimagined is... I'm aware of what's funding the show.
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BILBJH
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:08 am    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
In retrospect it was a poor decision, but I don't think it was wrong for me to want the first female President to be a person I admired.


I hate to pile on, but in addition to what others have said, when I read this I see an undercurrent of misogyny. Why would you be prioritizing attributes of the first WOMAN President? You should be prioritizing attributes of the 45th President, period -- because none of what you prioritize for the first WOMAN President matters when that person is behind the resolute desk and making decisions.

That said, I'd love to do a deep dive of why you didn't "admire" Clinton -- separate objective facts from propaganda, and separate objective attributes from misogynistic ones.


Why was Warren originally my first choice... why would I be happy with Gillibrand? Why would I admire AOC? Why would I have preferred Barbara Lee to be senator? Why do I wish Nina Turner would run for the Senate?
Why did I like Klobuchar even though she's a moderate?

I just didn't like the Clintons from the time of Bill's BS and lies even though I thought he was a decent President.

But sure call me a misogynist as apparently some of you need to label and categorize people instead of accepting they have a different opinion than you might have.
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