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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:49 am    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
As (Wilt) point(s) out, promoting such stagnation makes the baseless assertion that reactionary government on the part of the Democrats is as destructive as the abuse of it on the Republican's part, which couldn't be further from the truth.


And you know that for certain?


With absolute surety. The last two decades have proven that.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:49 am    Post subject:

Texas looks like a real thorn in Trump's ass. Not sure it will go democrat or not. It's close. Momentum seems to be on Biden's side.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:56 am    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:


That kind of holier than thou is making my point.


Here's what GOP operative Stuart Stevens says about his own Republican Party:

Why this former Republican says the party must be burned to the ground

Quote:
Stevens is one of the most successful GOP operatives in the last couple of decades. He helped lead several presidential campaigns (notably George W. Bush’s two campaigns and Mitt Romney’s failed bid in 2012) and multiple gubernatorial and congressional races. He’s as seasoned as they come in Republican politics.

But Stevens stands out among Trump’s conservative critics because of his candor about the deeper rot at the core of the GOP. And in a new tell-all book, called It Was All a Lie: How the Republican Party Became Donald Trump, he offers a grand mea culpa for his own role in paving the way for Trumpism. “It is a strange, melancholy feeling to turn sixty-five, and realize that what you have spent a good portion of your life working for and toward was not only meritless but also destructive,” Stevens writes.


In his book he says everything I said about the GOP but a thousand times more and a thousand times worse. And he knows, because he was there.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:57 am    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ribeye wrote:
strong9 wrote:
With all the extreme, reactionary rhetoric on both sides, the best result is actually for a split government. Until both sides learn moderation, I'd prefer a legislative branch controlled by one party and an executive branch controlled by the other.


That is the perfect solution . . . to getting nothing done.

Right now, there is too much wrong to right.


Perhaps but I don't believe a Democratic wave that seems hell bent on righting Trump wrongs is any different than what the Repubs did to the Obama legacy. We can agree change is necessary, but the approach can be completely wrong. Expanding SCOTUS is ridiculous and creates the very same type of precedent that the Repubs are using against us Democrats now.

Our system is broke and more of the same from the other party is not a long term solution.


Here's why both sides are not the same.

Republicans vote exclusively to benefit the rich and corporations.
Democrats vote mostly to benefit the middle-class, working class and poor.

That makes one party greedy and self-interested and the other party noble and inclusive.

Republicans use their power solely for themselves.
Democrats mostly use their power to help others.


That kind of holier than thou is making my point.


Prove that my statements are inaccurate.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:57 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ribeye wrote:
strong9 wrote:
With all the extreme, reactionary rhetoric on both sides, the best result is actually for a split government. Until both sides learn moderation, I'd prefer a legislative branch controlled by one party and an executive branch controlled by the other.


That is the perfect solution . . . to getting nothing done.

Right now, there is too much wrong to right.


Perhaps but I don't believe a Democratic wave that seems hell bent on righting Trump wrongs is any different than what the Repubs did to the Obama legacy. We can agree change is necessary, but the approach can be completely wrong. Expanding SCOTUS is ridiculous and creates the very same type of precedent that the Repubs are using against us Democrats now.

Our system is broke and more of the same from the other party is not a long term solution.


Here's why both sides are not the same.

Republicans vote exclusively to benefit the rich and corporations.
Democrats vote mostly to benefit the middle-class, working class and poor.

That makes one party greedy and self-interested and the other party noble and inclusive.

Republicans use their power solely for themselves.
Democrats mostly use their power to help others.


That kind of holier than thou is making my point.


but do you really see the 2 parties as the same?


Absolutely not. I align with most Dem policies, especially on spcial and environmental issues. But I also don't paint all Repubs with a broad brush. But my issue is not with policies at all. It is the polarized environment and my fear that Democrats will not be able to rise above the fray either. And some of the vitriol confirms my fears.

Give me a multi party parliamentary system any day over what we've become.


Last edited by strong9 on Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:02 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ribeye wrote:
strong9 wrote:
With all the extreme, reactionary rhetoric on both sides, the best result is actually for a split government. Until both sides learn moderation, I'd prefer a legislative branch controlled by one party and an executive branch controlled by the other.


That is the perfect solution . . . to getting nothing done.

Right now, there is too much wrong to right.


Perhaps but I don't believe a Democratic wave that seems hell bent on righting Trump wrongs is any different than what the Repubs did to the Obama legacy. We can agree change is necessary, but the approach can be completely wrong. Expanding SCOTUS is ridiculous and creates the very same type of precedent that the Repubs are using against us Democrats now.

Our system is broke and more of the same from the other party is not a long term solution.


Here's why both sides are not the same.

Republicans vote exclusively to benefit the rich and corporations.
Democrats vote mostly to benefit the middle-class, working class and poor.

That makes one party greedy and self-interested and the other party noble and inclusive.

Republicans use their power solely for themselves.
Democrats mostly use their power to help others.


That kind of holier than thou is making my point.


Prove that my statements are inaccurate.


I don't have issues with the substance of your message. But your vitriol reaffirms my fear of a reactionary response by Dems and that is never a good way to govern. That's all I am saying. I mean no disrespect to you.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:04 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Quinnipiac:

Biden +3 FL
Trump +1 IA
Biden +7 PA
Biden +5 OH


Quote:
Quinnipiac has had some very good/borderline outlier numbers for Biden this year, but these are much closer to the averages in each state, except in Ohio.


https://mobile.twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1321874884243476483
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:06 am    Post subject:

And once again, although your position sounds great in theory...in reality, all it would be is the embodiment of the whole "the dems are still figuring out how to win the chess match while the GOP has set the house on fire and walked out of the building" concept.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:06 am    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:
^ so I guess I am saying I will take stagnation over another reactionary government.


Or, in other words, its okay for Republicans to have been reactionary, setting new precedents that gave them everything that they want, but where there is a risk of Democrats being in power, we should all take a step back and just let the status quo Republican policies remain. Got it. You may not be a republican, but that sounds like a republican plan.

To be credible, I would argue that you should at least allow Democrats to use their power to get things back to a middle ground. Otherwise, your position is simply "I like what the Republicans have done and gotten away with to date, so please don't change it."
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:12 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ribeye wrote:
strong9 wrote:
With all the extreme, reactionary rhetoric on both sides, the best result is actually for a split government. Until both sides learn moderation, I'd prefer a legislative branch controlled by one party and an executive branch controlled by the other.


That is the perfect solution . . . to getting nothing done.

Right now, there is too much wrong to right.


Perhaps but I don't believe a Democratic wave that seems hell bent on righting Trump wrongs is any different than what the Repubs did to the Obama legacy. We can agree change is necessary, but the approach can be completely wrong. Expanding SCOTUS is ridiculous and creates the very same type of precedent that the Repubs are using against us Democrats now.

Our system is broke and more of the same from the other party is not a long term solution.


As broken as it may be, ensuring that absolutely nothing productive gets done over the couple of years accomplishes neither repairing the system nor repairing the damage done.


My guess is that is fine with those yearning for checks/balances right now. The "I want checks and balances" argument always seems to conveniently come out for a select few when its clear their preferred party is no longer going to be in power for some time.

The irony is we supposedly have checks/balance right now with a Dem house and a GOP Presidency/Senate, yet because Trump is still doing basically whatever he wants and the country is going to hell.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:16 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
strong9 wrote:
^ so I guess I am saying I will take stagnation over another reactionary government.


Or, in other words, its okay for Republicans to have been reactionary, setting new precedents that gave them everything that they want, but where there is a risk of Democrats being in power, we should all take a step back and just let the status quo Republican policies remain. Got it. You may not be a republican, but that sounds like a republican plan.

To be credible, I would argue that you should at least allow Democrats to use their power to get things back to a middle ground. Otherwise, your position is simply "I like what the Republicans have done and gotten away with to date, so please don't change it."


Lol. That sounds like my kid saying he hit me first.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:18 am    Post subject:

strong 9,

How will healthcare be reformed if either the Republicans are in charge or they have enough power to block anything the Democrats want to do?

How will immigration see reform if one side wants to separate families and cage children?

Shall we just sit still and watch our world begin to crumble due to climate change? Does this even matter to you?

Does it matter that one side wants to tax the rich (mostly) less, so they have more money than they can spend, and have our (not their) children pay for it?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:23 am    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ribeye wrote:
strong9 wrote:
With all the extreme, reactionary rhetoric on both sides, the best result is actually for a split government. Until both sides learn moderation, I'd prefer a legislative branch controlled by one party and an executive branch controlled by the other.


That is the perfect solution . . . to getting nothing done.

Right now, there is too much wrong to right.


Perhaps but I don't believe a Democratic wave that seems hell bent on righting Trump wrongs is any different than what the Repubs did to the Obama legacy. We can agree change is necessary, but the approach can be completely wrong. Expanding SCOTUS is ridiculous and creates the very same type of precedent that the Repubs are using against us Democrats now.

Our system is broke and more of the same from the other party is not a long term solution.


As broken as it may be, ensuring that absolutely nothing productive gets done over the couple of years accomplishes neither repairing the system nor repairing the damage done.


My guess is that is fine with those yearning for checks/balances right now. The "I want checks and balances" argument always seems to conveniently come out for a select few when its clear their preferred party is no longer going to be in power for some time.

The irony is we supposedly have checks/balance right now with a Dem house and a GOP Presidency/Senate, yet because Trump is still doing basically whatever he wants and the country is going to hell.


Yes checks and balances was the absolute intent of the framers and it is now broke. Actually, we don't have checks and balances right now. Look at judicial appointments and executive orders. And lest you think I'm crying foul because my "favored" party is about to fall out of favor, I am a proud member of that religious group that is the Repub's favorite dog whistle. They'll have nothing to do with me. But I choose to take a more pragmatic view of things.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:23 am    Post subject:

HHS planned $250 million celebrity ad campaign to portray Trump's covid response as positive



wtf
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:25 am    Post subject:

It's dumb when closet Libertarians come in here to tell us Dems we should act according to their ideals. It's even worse when Repubs do the same but hide their true political leanings.

Libertarian = closet racist (probably)
Repub = racist (probably)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:29 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
strong 9,

How will healthcare be reformed if either the Republicans are in charge or they have enough power to block anything the Democrats want to do?

How will immigration see reform if one side wants to separate families and cage children?

Shall we just sit still and watch our world begin to crumble due to climate change? Does this even matter to you?

Does it matter that one side wants to tax the rich (mostly) less, so they have more money than they can spend, and have our (not their) children pay for it?


I do think there are moderate Republicans who support many of these things and they hopefully are emboldened by a landslide victory for Biden. And I believe a Dem controlled govt that takes a more moderate approach to these things and seeks middle of the road solutions with bipartisan support in lieu of extreme left positions will do better for the country in the long run. Take fracking. Immediate ends to fracking is a left policy but is not pragmatic. Let us take a phased out approach that can get middle of the spectrum support instead of ideologies that perpetuate the problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:29 am    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:

Republicans use their power solely for themselves.
Democrats mostly use their power to help others.


That kind of holier than thou is making my point.


Spin how you want, but it is absolutely spot on, as anyone who has been paying attention knows.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:32 am    Post subject:

https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1321880450525179904?s=19
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ribeye wrote:
strong9 wrote:
With all the extreme, reactionary rhetoric on both sides, the best result is actually for a split government. Until both sides learn moderation, I'd prefer a legislative branch controlled by one party and an executive branch controlled by the other.


That is the perfect solution . . . to getting nothing done.

Right now, there is too much wrong to right.


Perhaps but I don't believe a Democratic wave that seems hell bent on righting Trump wrongs is any different than what the Repubs did to the Obama legacy. We can agree change is necessary, but the approach can be completely wrong. Expanding SCOTUS is ridiculous and creates the very same type of precedent that the Repubs are using against us Democrats now.

Our system is broke and more of the same from the other party is not a long term solution.


Here's why both sides are not the same.

Republicans vote exclusively to benefit the rich and corporations.
Democrats vote mostly to benefit the middle-class, working class and poor.

That makes one party greedy and self-interested and the other party noble and inclusive.

Republicans use their power solely for themselves.
Democrats mostly use their power to help others.


That kind of holier than thou is making my point.


Prove that my statements are inaccurate.


I don't have issues with the substance of your message. But your vitriol reaffirms my fear of a reactionary response by Dems and that is never a good way to govern. That's all I am saying. I mean no disrespect to you.


My vitriol stems from anger at the harm done to defenseless children, 220K dead Americans, 8 million infected, millions thrown into poverty, the 30 million about to lose their healthcare, the 100 million about to lose pre-existing condition protection, the racism directed at Latinx, blacks, Asians, and anger at the party that stood by and said nothing while Trump and his accomplices caused terrible harm to my fellow Americans. Do the people who caused this harm deserve a neutral "whatever, both parties are the same?" Or have they earned the anger directed at them due to the incalculable pain and suffering they have callously inflicted? My anger is righteous.

I'm not angry because I have to wear a mask. I'm angry that because of the anti-science incompetence of many GOP leaders that a good percentage of their followers won't wear masks and that defiance extends this plague and causes unneeded hardship, pain and death for their fellow Americans.

Both sides are not the same. And their motives are not the same.


Last edited by ChefLinda on Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject:

Quinnipac poll PA. Biden +7.

51%
44%

https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1321882436649787392?s=19
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:35 am    Post subject:

32 wrote:
https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1321880450525179904?s=19


Going to get even more nightmarish when Trump starts filing lawsuits to invalidate all the remaining votes in those states not counted on election night.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:37 am    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:
ribeye wrote:
strong9 wrote:
With all the extreme, reactionary rhetoric on both sides, the best result is actually for a split government. Until both sides learn moderation, I'd prefer a legislative branch controlled by one party and an executive branch controlled by the other.


That is the perfect solution . . . to getting nothing done.

Right now, there is too much wrong to right.


Perhaps but I don't believe a Democratic wave that seems hell bent on righting Trump wrongs is any different than what the Repubs did to the Obama legacy. We can agree change is necessary, but the approach can be completely wrong. Expanding SCOTUS is ridiculous and creates the very same type of precedent that the Repubs are using against us Democrats now.

Our system is broke and more of the same from the other party is not a long term solution.


My friend, I’m afraid you’ve opened the Overton window and drank the Koolaid they passed you through it. Almost everything the Dems want to do is to undo damage done, and to safeguard the right of all voters, including republicans, going forward. Trump didn’t undo radical democratic things, he undid norms and basic needs. Putting the basic decencies and protections back in place and safeguarding them is not equivalent to stripping them. Making sure everyone can vote is not the equivalent of taking the vote from targeted people. Giving people the right to health care isn’t the radical opposite of taking it away. It is normal vs abnormal.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:39 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ribeye wrote:
strong9 wrote:
With all the extreme, reactionary rhetoric on both sides, the best result is actually for a split government. Until both sides learn moderation, I'd prefer a legislative branch controlled by one party and an executive branch controlled by the other.


That is the perfect solution . . . to getting nothing done.

Right now, there is too much wrong to right.


Perhaps but I don't believe a Democratic wave that seems hell bent on righting Trump wrongs is any different than what the Repubs did to the Obama legacy. We can agree change is necessary, but the approach can be completely wrong. Expanding SCOTUS is ridiculous and creates the very same type of precedent that the Repubs are using against us Democrats now.

Our system is broke and more of the same from the other party is not a long term solution.


Here's why both sides are not the same.

Republicans vote exclusively to benefit the rich and corporations.
Democrats vote mostly to benefit the middle-class, working class and poor.

That makes one party greedy and self-interested and the other party noble and inclusive.

Republicans use their power solely for themselves.
Democrats mostly use their power to help others.


That kind of holier than thou is making my point.


Prove that my statements are inaccurate.


I don't have issues with the substance of your message. But your vitriol reaffirms my fear of a reactionary response by Dems and that is never a good way to govern. That's all I am saying. I mean no disrespect to you.


My vitriol stems from anger at the harm done to defenseless children, 220K dead Americans, 8 million infected, millions thrown into poverty, racism directed at Latinx, blacks, Asians, and anger at the party that stood by and said nothing while Trump and his accomplices caused terrible harm to my fellow Americans. Do the people who caused this harm deserve a neutral "whatever, both parties are the same?" Or have they earned the anger directed at them due to the incalculable pain and suffering they have callously inflicted? My anger is righteous.

I'm not angry because I have to wear a mask. I'm angry that because of the anti-science incompetence of many GOP leaders that a good percentage of their followers won't wear masks and that defiance extends this plague and causes unneeded hardship, pain and death for their fellow Americans.

Both sides are not the same. And their motives are not the same.


Okay. And righteous anger is still anger and still dangerous, and my point has been and remains, for the 100th time, that I'd rather things are done with rational long term solutions in mind and not as a reactionary, righteous angry response. Please explain to me why that triggers so much defensiveness?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:41 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
strong9 wrote:
ribeye wrote:
strong9 wrote:
With all the extreme, reactionary rhetoric on both sides, the best result is actually for a split government. Until both sides learn moderation, I'd prefer a legislative branch controlled by one party and an executive branch controlled by the other.


That is the perfect solution . . . to getting nothing done.

Right now, there is too much wrong to right.


Perhaps but I don't believe a Democratic wave that seems hell bent on righting Trump wrongs is any different than what the Repubs did to the Obama legacy. We can agree change is necessary, but the approach can be completely wrong. Expanding SCOTUS is ridiculous and creates the very same type of precedent that the Repubs are using against us Democrats now.

Our system is broke and more of the same from the other party is not a long term solution.


My friend, I’m afraid you’ve opened the Overton window and drank the Koolaid they passed you through it. Almost everything the Dems want to do is to undo damage done, and to safeguard the right of all voters, including republicans, going forward. Trump didn’t undo radical democratic things, he undid norms and basic needs. Putting the basic decencies and protections back in place and safeguarding them is not equivalent to stripping them. Making sure everyone can vote is not the equivalent of taking the vote from targeted people. Giving people the right to health care isn’t the radical opposite of taking it away. It is normal vs abnormal.


Clearly I'm not doing a good job of making my point.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:41 am    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
strong9 wrote:
^ so I guess I am saying I will take stagnation over another reactionary government.


Or, in other words, its okay for Republicans to have been reactionary, setting new precedents that gave them everything that they want, but where there is a risk of Democrats being in power, we should all take a step back and just let the status quo Republican policies remain. Got it. You may not be a republican, but that sounds like a republican plan.

To be credible, I would argue that you should at least allow Democrats to use their power to get things back to a middle ground. Otherwise, your position is simply "I like what the Republicans have done and gotten away with to date, so please don't change it."


Lol. That sounds like my kid saying he hit me first.


Actually that's what your argument sounds like, that no damage was done and that political retaliation is equivalent to a kid saying he hit me first. I have to agree with the moderators that this is much more serious than that and we do need to repair the damages the GOP has done in the past 3 and a half years
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