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DaMuleRules
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:53 pm Post subject:

ribeye wrote:

unleasHell wrote:

because I really disliked Hillary

I've asked too many times to remember as I always ask this simple question when I see that statement:

Why? (I'm looking for specifics and not simple unverifiable talking points.)

It's the entire context of the statement that matters. It's one thing to dislike Hillary, I know reasonable women on the left who do. It's entirely another to say that you were OK with seeing someone like Trump elected because you disliked Hilary more.

In that context, the answer to your question is one word, and it begins with an "m".
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames

Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now

Last edited by DaMuleRules on Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

Wilt
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:58 pm Post subject:

It says a lot when the dislike for Hillary is stronger than the dislike for the authoritarian racist she ran against. Which, of course, says little about Hillary and says a lot more about the person that dislikes her. _________________ ¡Hala Madrid!

Lakers#1Team
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:08 pm Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

As I alluded to, your bolded statement gives the best answer to why most Trumpies vote for Trump. However, I will play devils advocate for a hot second. For all of you died in the wool Democrats, what would it take for you not to vote for the Democratic candidate? You are certainly asking Sanders voters to vote for Joe. And I believe they should, as there is nothing scary or evil about Joe's intentions or behavior. Do you envision a scenario where you just couldn't vote for a Dem candidate and actually voted for a Rep?

Oh absolutely. For most Democrats it's about the policy. If Republicans followed their "small government" philosophy when it comes to reproductive rights, voting rights, the criminal justice system, the war on drugs, policing, bailouts. I could vote Republican. Although its not a given. I still believe in universal healthcare. I still believe the government should incentivize things to prevent the Tragedy of the Commons (income inequality, monopolies, climate change legislation).

But my vote would be much more up for grabs. Especially if the Dem candidate was treasonous or handled a pandemic horribly. Or if they lied repeatedly to the point where I can't trust the leader of the free world.

Good reasons. My current frustration with the Rep. party happened before Trump. In 2012 they correctly realized that they lost to Obama for a second time because they failed to reach out to minorities. I'm a white male but it really disgusted me in early 2014 when they completely abandoned that realization. They chose their flawed policies over expanding their small base. Not smart.

Omar Little
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:16 pm Post subject:

Wilt wrote:

It says a lot when the dislike for Hillary is stronger than the dislike for the authoritarian racist she ran against. Which, of course, says little about Hillary and says a lot more about the person that dislikes her.

That's what I was referring to, the idea that Trump is embarrassing NOW wasn't a problem earlier, nor was the racism before he made it more public (and it still isn't). And it is always the person bringing it up who is the attacker and the problem. Not gonna work.
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Lakers#1Team
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:20 pm Post subject:

jodeke wrote:

Bol wrote:

ribeye wrote:

jodeke wrote:

Wilt wrote:

^
Ideally, a Republican Party would be there to keep things in check, or to force favorable compromises. But it's no longer a political party, it's a grievance cult that would destroy this country even further if they actually controlled Congress under a Democratic president.

It's a terrible idea.

The Obama must fail should indicate what happens when Republicans are in control. They blocked everything he tried to do. Bipartisan is a Pollyanna dream.

At least, finally, though without the emphasis warranted, Biden answered Trump's constant questioning why he and Obama didn't get much done, when he said because of the Republicans (who blocked everything). I wanted to hear it in the first debate and kept telling Joe last night.

Yeah. Unfortunately Trump was ready for that answer and it's why Joe was reluctant to say it, because it does kind of undermine his argument that he's the guy who can get both sides to agree in order to get things done. But it's the truth, so might as well just say it.

The last president who got things done in spite of, was Bill Clinton. I call balancing the budget getting things done.

One of the few things I miss about the olden days (70's and 80's) is how both parties could work together despite policy disagreements, find common ground in a civil way and get things done. Gingrich changed that in '94.

Omar Little
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:22 pm Post subject:

FernieBee wrote:

jodeke wrote:

@Black Rpublicans in the forum. Do you think you'll ever see a Black Republican president? I'll answer my question. I DON'T THINK SO!!!

By the By I'm a Democrat.

Black Republicans and gay Republicans don't make sense to me.

It's like they're asking to be included by the type of people who actively legislate against them.

One of the effects of institutional bigotry is that a portion of the oppressed come to agree with their oppressors.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel

DaMuleRules
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:28 pm Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

FernieBee wrote:

jodeke wrote:

@Black Rpublicans in the forum. Do you think you'll ever see a Black Republican president? I'll answer my question. I DON'T THINK SO!!!

By the By I'm a Democrat.

Black Republicans and gay Republicans don't make sense to me.

It's like they're asking to be included by the type of people who actively legislate against them.

One of the effects of institutional bigotry is that a portion of the oppressed come to agree with their oppressors.

A variation of Stockholm Syndrome.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames

Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now

jodeke
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:29 pm Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

FernieBee wrote:

jodeke wrote:

@Black Rpublicans in the forum. Do you think you'll ever see a Black Republican president? I'll answer my question. I DON'T THINK SO!!!

By the By I'm a Democrat.

Black Republicans and gay Republicans don't make sense to me.

It's like they're asking to be included by the type of people who actively legislate against them.

One of the effects of institutional bigotry is that a portion of the oppressed come to agree with their oppressors.

Stockholm syndrome?
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

trmiv
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:35 pm Post subject:

FernieBee wrote:

jodeke wrote:

@Black Rpublicans in the forum. Do you think you'll ever see a Black Republican president? I'll answer my question. I DON'T THINK SO!!!

By the By I'm a Democrat.

Black Republicans and gay Republicans don't make sense to me.

It's like they're asking to be included by the type of people who actively legislate against them.

It’s because they’re pissed. Royally pissed!

LakerSanity
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:41 pm Post subject:

I don't like Biden any more than I like Hilary. If anything, Hilary was more qualified and better prepared to take the Democratic party forward than Biden is now. Point being - as Bill Maher says "you eat the fish," i.e. you vote for the best of what you got. On a separate (but related) note, I wonder how things would have looked if Hilary had not run in 2016 (say replaced by Biden). Or if Trump had ran and won against someone other than Hilary in 2016, and Hilary ran today. I waiver all directions on the outcomes in both of those scenarios. Not really sure what that would look like. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service Twitter: @DeleteThisPost

kikanga
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:56 pm Post subject:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

It doesn't help their cause when Trump appoints 50+ federal judges the past 4 years (many under-qualified) and none of them are African American. Or every time an unarmed Black person is killed by law enforcement, conservative media brings up the Black person's past criminal record (as if it merits their death). Or when they pretend BLM = riots.

The party is just unnecessarily hurting itself with those antics.
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DaMuleRules
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:01 pm Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

Let's be honest. These are not mistakes. This is what they are. They don't care about appearances anymore, just perpetuating their racism and Trump was their ultimate enabler.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames

Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now

Omar Little
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:07 pm Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

I don't like Biden any more than I like Hilary. If anything, Hilary was more qualified and better prepared to take the Democratic party forward than Biden is now. Point being - as Bill Maher says "you eat the fish," i.e. you vote for the best of what you got.

On a separate (but related) note, I wonder how things would have looked if Hilary had not run in 2016 (say replaced by Biden). Or if Trump had ran and won against someone other than Hilary in 2016, and Hilary ran today. I waiver all directions on the outcomes in both of those scenarios. Not really sure what that would look like.

In 2015, I was made aware of the potential Biden/Warren pairing, and it looked very good, with Biden serving a term and navigating the bipartisan waters (to whatever degree possible), winning back congress, and handing Warren a platform from which to move leftward (Biden is a quintessential politician in that he almost always knows where the rank and file are going early). Sadly, the death of his son made this impossible, and with a well qualified candidate in the field, he demurred.

This run is a very different Biden. He’s become much more interested in policy activism. He doesn’t see the job as the end of his legacy but an existential need to stop and then repair the damage done. He had hoped to be playing advisor soon, not taking the reigns of one of the most ugly and dire changeovers in our history.

Hard to know what would have been.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel

kikanga
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:20 pm Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

Let's be honest. These are not mistakes. This is what they are. They don't care about appearances anymore, just perpetuating their racism and Trump was their ultimate enabler.

That's true. But if they just had the self restraint to bite their tongue in terms of BLM. They would be better off. It's not like federal judges deeming voter suppression legal and locking up minority Democrat voters. Demonizing BLM does little to nothing in terms of expanding their voter base or increasing their likelihood of winning elections.
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Omar Little
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:37 pm Post subject:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

To answer your question, I have voted for republicans in the past, but the number of them and the level at which I would vote for them shrank rapidly starting in the nineties. Because unlike the democrats, the republicans became monolithic in stopping democrats first and foremost over any policy positions. When they were openly willing to say they wouldn’t take a 90/10 split, in their favor, when in the minority, it became pretty clear.

And I get why they did it. They were going to lose power in perpetuity unless they either changed policy or adopted a strategy to stop the advance of demographic change. And they were so steeped in white supremacy that it never for an instant occurred to them that many African American and Latinx voters are inherently friendly to several levels of social conservatism and even fiscal conservatism, and that by adopting racially inclusive tactics they could form a majority coalition. This is the decision that tells you all you need to know about the current GOP. And they have steadily drummed anyone not fully on board out, so there is no value in supporting any member of their party at any level.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel

Omar Little
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:51 pm Post subject:

Wilt wrote:

The only rational, believable arguments I’ve ever been able to get for disliking Hillary are “I’m a conservative and she’s too liberal” or “I’m very liberal and she’s not liberal enough” (I would dispute the place most left wingers will put her on the political spectrum but I can buy the concept based on reason). Sadly, most to the left or the right of her dislike her based on some combination of complete falsehoods and manipulated beyond recognition technical part truths (like the fact that she had a private server—which her predecessors and successors have also used without issue—conflated to sending and receiving classified emails) layered over personality critiques that are bathed in misogyny and hypocrisy.

I’ve never received any believable argument for a preference for Trump over her that didn’t start with an “I wouldn’t vote for Jesus if he ran as a democrat” level partisanship admission. You can tell when so many people will give you the “I didn’t vote for her but I was glad he won” argument that is such a blatant distinction without a difference as a way to try and disown him now.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel

Lakers#1Team
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:58 pm Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

That's kind of what I have realized. Took me a little longer to figure it out. It would be healthy for the country if Trump and Mitch lost power and maybe a few younger minority guys or gals step up to power in the GOP and change things up for the better. Less hatred and more open to working with Dems to get needed things done would be a start.

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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:03 pm Post subject:

For all you math nerds. Lol https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1319787685758861313?s=19 _________________ Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold.

kikanga
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:23 pm Post subject:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

No matter the party, race, gender, sexual preference, religious affiliation, etc. I think our country is in desperate need for politicians with recent working class life experience (its why I like some of our young congresspeople like AOC). Trump and Mitch are so detached from the lives of every day people.

IMO, the GOP believes social issues and economic talking points (not policy) are enough to appeal to lower and middle class voters. The median wage in the US 33K a year. If you talk to someone making that and asked them what policy the GOP advocates for that helps them financially. I think they would struggle to just name 3 things. Meanwhile it's easy to name all the ways Dem policy would help them (healthcare, social security, housing subsidies, food assistance, childcare programs, education funding, etc.).
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Last edited by kikanga on Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

jodeke
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:31 pm Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

Let's be honest. These are not mistakes. This is what they are. They don't care about appearances anymore, just perpetuating their racism and Trump was their ultimate enabler.

Trump's revealed the squalid underbelly of America. I am saddened by this revelation. I knew racism in America existed but not to the extent it does. There is no legislation Biden can write or support to remedy this.

The murder of George Floyd swayed some. It was a nudge. White America had a eye opening revelation that caused a momentary awakening that things had to change. That awakening was only momentary. It has already started to ebb.

Racism starts in the home and the home is the number one place to start the rid of it.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

Last edited by jodeke on Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

Omar Little
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:34 pm Post subject:

And it’s not going to take token minorities in positions of power. We already had Steele and others, elected and not. It’s going to take the GOP wing composed of a majority that places an emphasis on disavowing race, gender, and sexuality discrimination, in word and in deed. And I’m not sure how they get to that in the short term. Their base is largely comprised of combinations of white, straight, male, Christian, nationalist, anti intellectual dominant attitudes. They live in a world view that doesn’t match reality and doesn’t really match the former reality either, and they are both selfish and afraid. And there is no common ground with this view. They either destroy democracy or are run over by it. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel

kikanga
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:37 pm Post subject:

In the UK people go to the doctor, give their ID and their National Insurance Number (their version of SSN). And get treated. Taking out their credit card never even crosses their mind. It sounds like fantasy to us Americans. But it's the same story in Canada. The way Americans sabotage themselves is shocking. It's one of the reasons why Europeans, Canadians, New Zealanders and Australians laugh at us. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”

DaMuleRules
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:38 pm Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

DaMuleRules wrote:

kikanga wrote:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

Let's be honest. These are not mistakes. This is what they are. They don't care about appearances anymore, just perpetuating their racism and Trump was their ultimate enabler.

Not long ago, I would have agreed with you on that. But I've come to see that the anti-BLM sentiment isn't just within that loyal base. There are people outside of the base who view BLM negatively because they have bought into the idea that BLM is the reason for all the disruptive protest and rioting (even though they are obviously wrong). There are also people in that moderate conservative range who don't necessarily fall into the base who (incorrectly) see BLM as nothing more than an attack on Law Enforcement and therefor and attack on Law and Order. There is a reason many people have been saying that terms like "Defund the Police" could be dangerously counterproductive to the actual intent of the concept of police reform. I'm not saying they are correct in that calculation and gamble. It's just that at this point, I've come te realize it's not the glaring mistake that it might seem.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames

Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now

kikanga
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Posts: 29338
Location: La La Land

Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:42 pm Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

And it’s not going to take token minorities in positions of power. We already had Steele and others, elected and not. It’s going to take the GOP wing composed of a majority that places an emphasis on disavowing race, gender, and sexuality discrimination, in word and in deed. And I’m not sure how they get to that in the short term. Their base is largely comprised of combinations of white, straight, male, Christian, nationalist, anti intellectual dominant attitudes. They live in a world view that doesn’t match reality and doesn’t really match the former reality either, and they are both selfish and afraid. And there is no common ground with this view. They either destroy democracy or are run over by it.

The tokenism is personally offensive to me. Because it assumes the minority group is too dumb and lesser than that they can't realize what is going on.
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Lakers#1Team
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Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:52 pm Post subject:

kikanga wrote:

Lakers#1Team wrote:

Agreed. Moscow Mitch had the typical political background. Degree in Political Science followed by Law School, with an educational deferment from the military followed by being determined as medically unfit. No Vietnam War combat duty experience for him. Then starting as a Senator's aide. He did have polio as a youth which nearly bankrupted his parents. That's sad.

Then we have little Donny who grew up under his father's iron-fisted wing along various apartment complexes in Queens, followed by a private boarding school, followed by a transfer from Fordham U. to the Wharton School. Privileged much? Followed by his Manhatten real estate con games, followed by Casino bankruptcies and a stupid reality show.

Yes, we need more leaders who understand the struggles most people have to go through.

Last edited by Lakers#1Team on Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

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