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MookieBetts50
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Joined: 22 Jul 2020
Posts: 1943
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 Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| That blowhard myopic nutjob truly believes that RED WAVE is about to surge as well as retaking the House despite what all the polls suggest. |
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Omar Little
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90304
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| unleasHell wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | This election is a referendum on Trump. And the question is. Do you want 4 more years of Trump? Or a different 60+ year old white guy who won't rock the boat and isn't crazy.
That's pretty much it. Trump will try to make it "establishment" vs. "non-establishment". But that message won't transmit to swing voters. All they see is 1 sane old white Grandpa vs. 1 insane old white Grandpa.
Sorry if that is too simplistic. But it is what it is. This is 2020 America. One could complain about my description of the General Election. But what is really worth being upset about is why 43% of Americans STILL support Trump.
If he was running against a Black or Hispanic person. Or a woman. Or a LGBTQ+ person. They could be the modern day Albert Einstein. 43% turns into 53% in a second.
Like I said, it is what it is. Thank God Biden ran. We'd be up (bleep) creek without a paddle if he didn't. |
Yep. Having watched everything that has gone on during this general election cycle, we'd have been dead in the water if the Dems were running Bernie. |
Agree on both of these, the train wreck that was Trump may be about to be cleaned up, I'm not exactly buying into everything Biden is pushing, and I think it is much harder for any president to effect the major changes they promise during their run to the White House, so I'm thinking Joe will be ok, but I would prefer Republican majorities in the House/Congress to keep him in check... |
Yes, because the GOP has been so good at keeping a Democratic President in check by just blocking anything and everything. Trump isn’t the problem, he’s just the embarrassing public display of where you guys have been for a while.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67574
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Wilt wrote: | ^
Ideally, a Republican Party would be there to keep things in check, or to force favorable compromises. But it's no longer a political party, it's a grievance cult that would destroy this country even further if they actually controlled Congress under a Democratic president.
It's a terrible idea. |
The "Obama must fail" crew should indicate what happens when Republicans are in control. They blocked everything he tried to do. Bipartisan is a Pollyanna dream.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ribeye
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12627
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | ^
Ideally, a Republican Party would be there to keep things in check, or to force favorable compromises. But it's no longer a political party, it's a grievance cult that would destroy this country even further if they actually controlled Congress under a Democratic president.
It's a terrible idea. |
The Obama must fail should indicate what happens when Republicans are in control. They blocked everything he tried to do. Bipartisan is a Pollyanna dream. |
At least, finally, though without the emphasis warranted, Biden answered Trump's constant questioning why he and Obama didn't get much done, when he said because of the Republicans (who blocked everything). I wanted to hear it in the first debate and kept telling Joe last night.
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"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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Lonzo-Lite
Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 5088
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | @GOP
Pres. Trump is fighting for YOU! Here are some of his priorities for a 2nd term:
*Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon
*Send the 1st Manned Mission to Mars
*Build World’s Greatest Infrastructure System
*Establish National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
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https://twitter.com/gop/status/1319715289328766980?s=21
Never ending SNL skit.
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Tacos |
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trmiv
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Nov 2001
Posts: 17657
Location: Orlando
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Lonzo-Lite wrote: | | Quote: | @GOP
Pres. Trump is fighting for YOU! Here are some of his priorities for a 2nd term:
*Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon
*Send the 1st Manned Mission to Mars
*Build World’s Greatest Infrastructure System
*Establish National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
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https://twitter.com/gop/status/1319715289328766980?s=21
Never ending SNL skit. |
I thought for sure that had to be a parody account. Nope, it’s the real GOP account. Once again writers for The Onion are just throwing their hands up. |
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ChefLinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24157
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | unleasHell wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | This election is a referendum on Trump. And the question is. Do you want 4 more years of Trump? Or a different 60+ year old white guy who won't rock the boat and isn't crazy.
That's pretty much it. Trump will try to make it "establishment" vs. "non-establishment". But that message won't transmit to swing voters. All they see is 1 sane old white Grandpa vs. 1 insane old white Grandpa.
Sorry if that is too simplistic. But it is what it is. This is 2020 America. One could complain about my description of the General Election. But what is really worth being upset about is why 43% of Americans STILL support Trump.
If he was running against a Black or Hispanic person. Or a woman. Or a LGBTQ+ person. They could be the modern day Albert Einstein. 43% turns into 53% in a second.
Like I said, it is what it is. Thank God Biden ran. We'd be up (bleep) creek without a paddle if he didn't. |
Yep. Having watched everything that has gone on during this general election cycle, we'd have been dead in the water if the Dems were running Bernie. |
Agree on both of these, the train wreck that was Trump may be about to be cleaned up, I'm not exactly buying into everything Biden is pushing, and I think it is much harder for any president to effect the major changes they promise during their run to the White House, so I'm thinking Joe will be ok, but I would prefer Republican majorities in the House/Congress to keep him in check... |
Yes, because the GOP has been so good at keeping a Democratic President in check by just blocking anything and everything. Trump isn’t the problem, he’s just the embarrassing public display of where you guys have been for a while. |
This is the same GOP that vowed if Hillary Clinton won, they would *never* vote on any of her SCOTUS nominees and would keep the seats open until the next GOP president. |
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Hector the Pup
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 35946
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| SGV-Laker fan wrote: | what if Trump gets re-elected, but Dems take House and Senate, will you consider that as the consolation prize? i mean technically Dems can start a new impeachment again now they control both houses. i wonder how a lame duck president Trump will be  |
One way or the other, we're going to find out starting November 4. The best case scenario involves a sociopath with nothing to lose for 10 weeks. I'm not even going to try to type the worst case scenario. |
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Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90304
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | unleasHell wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | This election is a referendum on Trump. And the question is. Do you want 4 more years of Trump? Or a different 60+ year old white guy who won't rock the boat and isn't crazy.
That's pretty much it. Trump will try to make it "establishment" vs. "non-establishment". But that message won't transmit to swing voters. All they see is 1 sane old white Grandpa vs. 1 insane old white Grandpa.
Sorry if that is too simplistic. But it is what it is. This is 2020 America. One could complain about my description of the General Election. But what is really worth being upset about is why 43% of Americans STILL support Trump.
If he was running against a Black or Hispanic person. Or a woman. Or a LGBTQ+ person. They could be the modern day Albert Einstein. 43% turns into 53% in a second.
Like I said, it is what it is. Thank God Biden ran. We'd be up (bleep) creek without a paddle if he didn't. |
Yep. Having watched everything that has gone on during this general election cycle, we'd have been dead in the water if the Dems were running Bernie. |
Agree on both of these, the train wreck that was Trump may be about to be cleaned up, I'm not exactly buying into everything Biden is pushing, and I think it is much harder for any president to effect the major changes they promise during their run to the White House, so I'm thinking Joe will be ok, but I would prefer Republican majorities in the House/Congress to keep him in check... |
Yes, because the GOP has been so good at keeping a Democratic President in check by just blocking anything and everything. Trump isn’t the problem, he’s just the embarrassing public display of where you guys have been for a while. |
This is the same GOP that vowed if Hillary Clinton won, they would *never* vote on any of her SCOTUS nominees and would keep the seats open until the next GOP president. |
The same GOP that built his racist base through endless, thinly coded race baiting for generations. The only problem the GOP has with Trump is that he’s a loose cannon and owns the monster they created for votes but thought they could control. They will have no such issues with a more practical version like Carlson or Cotton. Hell, if he just pretended to work on the covid virus and stopped trying to kill the ACA, he’d not lose a single gop voter.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67574
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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@Black Rpublicans in the forum. Do you think you'll ever see a Black Republican president? I'll answer my question. I DON'T THINK SO!!! 
By the By I'm a Democrat.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Bol
Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 4045
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ribeye wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | ^
Ideally, a Republican Party would be there to keep things in check, or to force favorable compromises. But it's no longer a political party, it's a grievance cult that would destroy this country even further if they actually controlled Congress under a Democratic president.
It's a terrible idea. |
The Obama must fail should indicate what happens when Republicans are in control. They blocked everything he tried to do. Bipartisan is a Pollyanna dream. |
At least, finally, though without the emphasis warranted, Biden answered Trump's constant questioning why he and Obama didn't get much done, when he said because of the Republicans (who blocked everything). I wanted to hear it in the first debate and kept telling Joe last night. |
Yeah. Unfortunately Trump was ready for that answer and it's why Joe was reluctant to say it, because it does kind of undermine his argument that he's the guy who can get both sides to agree in order to get things done. But it's the truth, so might as well just say it. |
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PLATNUM
Star Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2002
Posts: 7120
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone else think it was tacky/cringey/disrespectful (but not surprising) when Trump kept referring to Dr Fauci as Anthony?
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"Dread it, run from it... destiny arrives all the same." |
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32
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Joined: 04 Nov 2009
Posts: 73058
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jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67574
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Bol wrote: | | ribeye wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | ^
Ideally, a Republican Party would be there to keep things in check, or to force favorable compromises. But it's no longer a political party, it's a grievance cult that would destroy this country even further if they actually controlled Congress under a Democratic president.
It's a terrible idea. |
The Obama must fail should indicate what happens when Republicans are in control. They blocked everything he tried to do. Bipartisan is a Pollyanna dream. |
At least, finally, though without the emphasis warranted, Biden answered Trump's constant questioning why he and Obama didn't get much done, when he said because of the Republicans (who blocked everything). I wanted to hear it in the first debate and kept telling Joe last night. |
Yeah. Unfortunately Trump was ready for that answer and it's why Joe was reluctant to say it, because it does kind of undermine his argument that he's the guy who can get both sides to agree in order to get things done. But it's the truth, so might as well just say it. |
The last president who got things done in spite of, was Bill Clinton. I call balancing the budget getting things done.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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DancingBarry
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001
Posts: 40197
Location: O.C.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Lonzo-Lite wrote: | | Quote: | @GOP
Pres. Trump is fighting for YOU! Here are some of his priorities for a 2nd term:
*Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon
*Send the 1st Manned Mission to Mars
*Build World’s Greatest Infrastructure System
*Establish National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
|
https://twitter.com/gop/status/1319715289328766980?s=21
Never ending SNL skit. |
Hey mother$#@@(#$&% How about the @&$*ing pandemic? |
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unleasHell
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2001
Posts: 11591
Location: Stay Thirsty my Friends
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Yes, because the GOP has been so good at keeping a Democratic President in check by just blocking anything and everything. Trump isn’t the problem, he’s just the embarrassing public display of where you guys have been for a while. |
LOL, "You guys" just who is "you guys?
You mean white people? Yeah, I guess I'm white, didn't have much say in that.
Maybe you mean "Republicans", sorry but I'm not one, and I didn't vote for Trump the first time and I'm not voting for him this time either. I did not mind Trump being elected, because I really disliked Hillary, and I had hoped he'd do a decent job, but he is little more than an embaressment.
I did vote for Obama the first time, if that gets me any love(?) lol
As I said before I greatly dislike politicians, they are a bout 1 step above a used car salesman, they steal, they lie, they do whats best for them and occasionally they'll do some good for the people and even rarer they will do something they promised BEFORE they were elected.
What fascinates me most about politics is how vicious people get when they think they are right, like how you like to attack me, I can tell you're loving every minute of it, and I could really care less.
My wife and I are trying to move our monies out of stocks before the election, as I'm pretty sure the stock market will tank big time, sure it will come back, but I don't have the time to absorb even a temporary loss, anyone else doing that Demo or Repub?
_________________
“Always remember... Rumors are carried by haters, spread by fools, and accepted by idiots.” |
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FernieBee
Star Player
Joined: 17 Nov 2003
Posts: 8033
Location: 921SD
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | @Black Rpublicans in the forum. Do you think you'll ever see a Black Republican president? I'll answer my question. I DON'T THINK SO!!!
By the By I'm a Democrat. |
Black Republicans and gay Republicans don't make sense to me.
It's like they're asking to be included by the type of people who actively legislate against them.
_________________
Garvey, Lopes, Cey, Russell |
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trmiv
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Nov 2001
Posts: 17657
Location: Orlando
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | Lonzo-Lite wrote: | | Quote: | @GOP
Pres. Trump is fighting for YOU! Here are some of his priorities for a 2nd term:
*Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon
*Send the 1st Manned Mission to Mars
*Build World’s Greatest Infrastructure System
*Establish National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
|
https://twitter.com/gop/status/1319715289328766980?s=21
Never ending SNL skit. |
Hey mother$#@@(#$&% How about the @&$*ing pandemic? |
Naww man. Moonbase is much more important.
American people are like: “I know I had to say goodbye to my dying grandma on Zoom, but what I really want is a Moonbase!” |
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Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90304
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| unleasHell wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Yes, because the GOP has been so good at keeping a Democratic President in check by just blocking anything and everything. Trump isn’t the problem, he’s just the embarrassing public display of where you guys have been for a while. |
LOL, "You guys" just who is "you guys?
You mean white people? Yeah, I guess I'm white, didn't have much say in that.
Maybe you mean "Republicans", sorry but I'm not one, and I didn't vote for Trump the first time and I'm not voting for him this time either. I did not mind Trump being elected, because I really disliked Hillary, and I had hoped he'd do a decent job, but he is little more than an embaressment.
I did vote for Obama the first time, if that gets me any love(?) lol
As I said before I greatly dislike politicians, they are a bout 1 step above a used car salesman, they steal, they lie, they do whats best for them and occasionally they'll do some good for the people and even rarer they will do something they promised BEFORE they were elected.
What fascinates me most about politics is how vicious people get when they think they are right, like how you like to attack me, I can tell you're loving every minute of it, and I could really care less.
My wife and I are trying to move our monies out of stocks before the election, as I'm pretty sure the stock market will tank big time, sure it will come back, but I don't have the time to absorb even a temporary loss, anyone else doing that Demo or Repub? |
I'm not laughing or enjoying anything other than the absurd sentiment that it would be good to have a GOP legislature (both houses to boot) to "check" Biden, given what that looked like with the last president, and why. And I didn't accuse you of voting for Trump or party membership, but we both know each other's political lean, so let's not play coy.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90304
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| PLATNUM wrote: | | Anyone else think it was tacky/cringey/disrespectful (but not surprising) when Trump kept referring to Dr Fauci as Anthony? |
He likely meant it to be demeaning (just like he thinks narrating everyone calling him sir is aggrandizing), but a lot of high level pols refer to each other and various staffers by first name, so it's not that big a deal.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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jodeke
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67574
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | Lonzo-Lite wrote: | | Quote: | @GOP
Pres. Trump is fighting for YOU! Here are some of his priorities for a 2nd term:
*Establish Permanent Manned Presence on The Moon
*Send the 1st Manned Mission to Mars
*Build World’s Greatest Infrastructure System
*Establish National High-Speed Wireless Internet Network
|
https://twitter.com/gop/status/1319715289328766980?s=21
Never ending SNL skit. |
Hey mother$#@@(#$&% How about the @&$*ing pandemic? |
PM me. I'll send you a PO Box you can send me some of whatever you're tastin on. 
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Buck32
Star Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2001
Posts: 7325
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| SweetP wrote: | From CNN
| Quote: | | The study -- from the Covid-19 forecasting team at the University of Washington's Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation -- notes that, as of September 21, only about 49% of US residents reported that they "always" wear a mask in public. |
| Quote: | | If mask-wearing remains 49% through February and states continue with removing social distancing mandates, the Covid-19 death toll across the United States could reach about 1 million deaths by February 28, according to the study, published in the journal Nature Medicine on Friday. |
| Quote: | | Yet under the assumption that states shut down when their daily death rate exceeds 8 deaths per 1 million people in the population but mask-wearing doesn't change, the study's model projections forecast the death toll could reach 511,373 deaths by February 28. |
| Quote: | | The scenario that 95% of people in each state wear masks -- in addition to states reinstating social distancing mandates if their daily death rates exceed 8 deaths per 1 million people -- resulted in the lowest death toll projection, with 381,798 deaths by February 28, according to the study. |
Even if Biden takes office Jan 21, within a month, due to the mistakes and frankly the intentional mismanagement of Trump's administration, there could be up to a million dead Americans if this model is correct. Just boggles the mind, I think we can't even grasp these numbers. But soon enough, virtually all of us will have someone we know and care about seriously ill or dead. |
How incompetent must a government be to allow a million dead, more than the 750000 dead Americans during the 1918 pandemic. I mean that's 102 years and still nothing learned? And that pandemic was at the tail end of the Great War, with troop movements, parades etc.
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“Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”
― Isaac Asimov |
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DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52648
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | PLATNUM wrote: | | Anyone else think it was tacky/cringey/disrespectful (but not surprising) when Trump kept referring to Dr Fauci as Anthony? |
He likely meant it to be demeaning (just like he thinks narrating everyone calling him sir is aggrandizing), but a lot of high level pols refer to each other and various staffers by first name, so it's not that big a deal. |
I thought it was a combination of being dismissive, yet also trying to give a sense of friendliness to offset some of the criticism for being at odds with Fauci.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52648
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | unleasHell wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Yes, because the GOP has been so good at keeping a Democratic President in check by just blocking anything and everything. Trump isn’t the problem, he’s just the embarrassing public display of where you guys have been for a while. |
LOL, "You guys" just who is "you guys?
You mean white people? Yeah, I guess I'm white, didn't have much say in that.
Maybe you mean "Republicans", sorry but I'm not one, and I didn't vote for Trump the first time and I'm not voting for him this time either. I did not mind Trump being elected, because I really disliked Hillary, and I had hoped he'd do a decent job, but he is little more than an embaressment.
I did vote for Obama the first time, if that gets me any love(?) lol
As I said before I greatly dislike politicians, they are a bout 1 step above a used car salesman, they steal, they lie, they do whats best for them and occasionally they'll do some good for the people and even rarer they will do something they promised BEFORE they were elected.
What fascinates me most about politics is how vicious people get when they think they are right, like how you like to attack me, I can tell you're loving every minute of it, and I could really care less.
My wife and I are trying to move our monies out of stocks before the election, as I'm pretty sure the stock market will tank big time, sure it will come back, but I don't have the time to absorb even a temporary loss, anyone else doing that Demo or Repub? |
I'm not laughing or enjoying anything other than the absurd sentiment that it would be good to have a GOP legislature (both houses to boot) to "check" Biden, given what that looked like with the last president, and why. And I didn't accuse you of voting for Trump or party membership, but we both know each other's political lean, so let's not play coy. |
There's a great deal of absurdity in the bolded as well.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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ribeye
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2001
Posts: 12627
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| unleasHell wrote: |
because I really disliked Hillary |
I've asked too many times to remember as I always ask this simple question when I see that statement:
Why? (I'm looking for specifics and not simple unverifiable talking points.)
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"A metronome keeps time by using a Ringo" |
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