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| If we draft #4, which PG would you prefer? |
| Chris Paul |
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94% |
[ 35 ] |
| Deron Williams |
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5% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 37 |
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AmoebaD
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Joined: 26 Apr 2005
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Location: Thermopylae
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 Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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*124*
| LakerLogic wrote: | | He has so much athletic ability he can go for a steal and still recover. |
I think that this is part of the problem. He's a very athletic guard, but he seems to rely so much on his athleticism that he lets smarter guards like Deron get better position on him because he thinks that he's going to be able to use his athletic ability and recover on them which in the final game was not the case. He was able in that game to recover on Luther Head and Dee Brown, but Deron was able to get him out of position three or four times, drawing reaching fouls on him on two of them. Reaching fouls indicate that the player is out of position and is forced to grab the player he is guarding to attempt to prevent him from scoring.
Getting lost behind screens indicates that he's not tracking the player he's guarding correctly. He tends to duck underneath screens (ala chucky) probably because he thinks he can use his athletic ability to recover, which was not the case when guarding a smarter guard like Deron when Deron lost him like two times around a series of screens and either passed the ball off or popped up for an easy jumper.
| LakerLogic wrote: | | Davis, Parker, Nash, Bibby, etc won't be burning us if Felton is pressuring them full-court all game long. |
These guys are presumably more skillful and more athletic than Deron. Felton was not able to guard Deron even with the allowance of hand-checking in college basketball and even though he's more presumably athletic and faster than Deron. He would pick up ticky-tack fouls against Davis because Davis is bigger, stronger and smarter than he is (as a basketball player). Parker would lose him around screens, penetrating into the paint. Nash would burn him with his jumpshot. Bibby would use those screens for the pick and pop. Etc.
I'm not saying that Felton is a bad player but he's a pre-rookie. Deron would probably fair about the same against these guys. Paul would probably be able to burn a majority of them but he's going to have defensive liabilities also. None of these guys are going to be good NBA quality defenders... at first. They're going to have to learn.
Deron has a knowledge advantage over Felton. Felton is a more instintual athlete than Deron (meaning, he's going to react faster based on what he feels is the best thing to do in a given situation but that doesn't mean the decision he chooses is necessarily going to be the right decision). Deron is going to be able to think about the bigger picture more adeptly, he's a more cerebral player, he's probably a better leader. Check this quote out (link):
| Quote: | That's what the Illini camp has been saying all season, that anyone who views Williams as merely another good collegiate point guard doesn't grasp the importance of selfless leadership on a team that has lost once in four months. Yet the complete impact of his presence didn't hit home until the final minutes of the Chicago Regional final -- now known as Deron's Dare -- when he refused to panic and became the driving force in one of college basketball's greatest comebacks. Down by 15 points to Arizona with four minutes left, the only deep hole Illinois has faced all season, a team with a weaker leader would have buckled. But Weber summoned his players and told them, "Look into my eyes. We're not ready to lose." And then it was Williams who gathered his teammates on the court and delivered what sounds, in retrospect, like a title for a coffee- table book about a championship team.
"I said, We're not going to lose this game,' " Williams recalled, blurred as the fond memories were. "I said, We've got to keep going, keep playing. Don't give up.' I'm telling my teammates, This game's not over. We still have time. We can still get it down and chip away. Let's get the crowd into it.' "
He immediately set an example by hitting a three-pointer. On the next possession, he found Head, who made a trey. His slashing layup made it a six-point game. Running, dishing, controlling the game now, he located Head for another trey. Then came the defining moment, when Williams buried a three to force an 80-80 tie and send Illini Nation into a screaming, hopping, disbelieving frenzy. In overtime, he made two more three-pointers and assisted on three other baskets. All the while, he was putting his big body on Salim Stoudamire, who had made a silly 51 percent of his threes entering the game but scored only nine points in a sluggish performance. Why did Arizona settle for an awkward, ill-advised jumper at the end of overtime? Because Stoudamire couldn't break free.
Some kind of statement game
At last, Williams had made his grand statement to a sporting nation, playing 44 of the 45 minutes and not once looking fatigued. He had 22 points and 10 assists, but more impressively, didn't commit a turnover in the final 24 minutes. He is so poised, you wonder if his birth certificate is a fake. No way he was born in 1984. He had to have grown up in the '60s or '70s, when players actually strived to be pure, unselfish point guards.
"Deron Williams, the best guard in America, came through and made the great plays," said Brown, the Sports Illustrated cover boy.
"Those shots down the stretch, we could have panicked," Weber said. "That's where Deron comes in. He's got a great feel for the game and he doesn't panic."
Not that Williams will take an I-told-you-so chip into the Final Four, where the Illini should be favored to win it all by grace of destiny alone. He'll just shrug and remind you he's the point guard on a 36-1 team, that's all. "People tend to judge you on scoring, and my scoring has been a bit down this season. But the team is winning and that's all I care about," he said. "I may not be the guy making all the shots or getting all the assists. But I make my fair share of important baskets, and I'm usually the guy making the pass that leads to the assist. Point guards get judged by winning, and I think I have a pretty good record there."
The rally changes all that. Not only does Williams win, he willed Illinois to win when most any other college hoops team in history would have lost. I haven't been alone in hesitating to celebrate him as a great player. He was left off every All-America team, causing Weber to sympathize with him when Brown and Head were honored on the second and third teams. "That's all right, coach," Williams said. "I don't have good enough numbers. We're winning. That's what counts." |
I'm not saying that Felton wouldn't be a good pick-up but Deron is probably a better point guard to have from a strategic point of view.
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Last edited by AmoebaD on Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:52 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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KA_2
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Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 1883
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| SHAQ/KOBE=#1 wrote: | | Unless he has a growth spurt, it won't be as easy to fix as you think. |
Hate to tell ya, but getting through screens has little to do with height.
| Quote: | | His opponents had no trouble getting past him. |
Names?
| Quote: | | He especially struggled when he went up against bigger players, which is who he is going to be up against every night in the NBA. Speed does not always equal good defense. |
99% it absolutely does. Name an All D or DPOY perimeter player in NBA history that wasn't elitely quick, fast, athletic, etc. Payton, Cooper, Pippen, Jordan, Artest, etc. etc. etc. All very elite physically.
| Quote: | | If he could stay in front of his man, then why go to a zone? They went to a zone because he was getting beat... |
No actually, they went to the zone because he fouled a lot. A lot of players that can stay in front of their man still commit fouls. It's easily correctable, a lot more easily correctable than having to deal with a slow footed matador like Deron Williams who has absolutely no chance of staying in front of elite PGs at the NBA level.
Oh, and another reason UNC went to the zone was because they have absolutely zero guards outside of Felton that can run an offense. Yeah, that's sort of important when you have to rely on entry passes to your bread and butter player on the block, Sean May.
| Quote: | | The idea behind getting Felton seems to center mostly on his defense. However, I don't think his defense will be significantly better than Paul or Williams at the NBA level, and his offensive skills lag far behind both of them. |
So Paul, who is easily the worst defender of the elite lotto PGs in this draft, can't defend college guards worth a damn but is somehow going to do it well enough at the NBA level that it won't be much worse than Felton, who's a proven defender at the college level? I guess it really comes down to how often you watched UNC play.
| Quote: | | I doubt that. But how about you put that in your sig, and next year we will see which of the points is the best? |
I don't have to put it in my sig, I'll just bump this thread next year. Oh, but to clarify, they need PT for this to be bumped. Hopefully Deron, Paul, and Felton get that PT so this thread can be bumped next year, and not 2+ years from now, as by then I’ll forget about this thread altogether.
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SHAQ/KOBE=#1
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 3260
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| KA_2 wrote: |
Hate to tell ya, but getting through screens has little to do with height. |
I was referring to more than just his height that needed to grow. His wingspan, strength, etc... Also, I'm not so sure it will be as easy to fix his problems via coaching like you think. If it was, guys like Mike Wilks would be good defenders.
Deron Williams. How about some names of players Felton has shut down?
| Quote: | | 99% it absolutely does. Name an All D or DPOY perimeter player in NBA history that wasn't elitely quick, fast, athletic, etc. Payton, Cooper, Pippen, Jordan, Artest, etc. etc. etc. All very elite physically. |
I think you misunderstood; unless you are saying that 99% of players who have speed are good defenders. I agree that the very best defenders have great physical gifts, but there have been plenty of players who are very fast that haven't made an impact defensively.
| Quote: | No actually, they went to the zone because he fouled a lot. A lot of players that can stay in front of their man still commit fouls. It's easily correctable, a lot more easily correctable than having to deal with a slow footed matador like Deron Williams who has absolutely no chance of staying in front of elite PGs at the NBA level.
Oh, and another reason UNC went to the zone was because they have absolutely zero guards outside of Felton that can run an offense. Yeah, that's sort of important when you have to rely on entry passes to your bread and butter player on the block, Sean May. |
How is that going to work in the NBA where the players are even bigger, stronger, and faster than Deron Williams? They can back him down every time, or muscle past him and shoot over him.
| Quote: | | So Paul, who is easily the worst defender of the elite lotto PGs in this draft, can't defend college guards worth a damn but is somehow going to do it well enough at the NBA level that it won't be much worse than Felton, who's a proven defender at the college level? I guess it really comes down to how often you watched UNC play. |
How do you define proven? By awards? Because Paul won a place on his conference defensive team. Whether he deserved it or not, the point remains that Felton hasn't proven that he will be a better defender at the NBA level. And like I said, both Paul and Williams are far ahead of Felton offensively.
| Quote: | | I don't have to put it in my sig, I'll just bump this thread next year. Oh, but to clarify, they need PT for this to be bumped. Hopefully Deron, Paul, and Felton get that PT so this thread can be bumped next year, and not 2+ years from now, as by then I’ll forget about this thread altogether. |
Please do. This reminds me of Duhon vs. Misan. |
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hapn14
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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 1316
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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d-wills gonna drop till late lotery
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AmoebaD
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Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 580
Location: Thermopylae
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| Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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*126*
| hapn14 wrote: | | d-wills gonna drop till late lotery |
Uhmn... if he drops to 10 then the Lakers are definitely going to pick this guy up...! 
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