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KindCrippler2000
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:40 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
It's funny when people tried to debate the ceilings of Kuz/BI. Pretty clear that BI had the much higher ceiling even if Kuz (thanks to age) had a higher floor relatively speaking.

Happy to see him doing well. Wish it could have been on the Lakers but he was one of the main reasons we got AD too.

Its funny how some really prominent posters on this board were trashing BI saying hes the worst starter in the league have gone silent


It’s funnier that what they posted was something you obviously didn’t understand. Mathematically he was his rookie year.


He actually wasn't. If you break down those stats, they had no weight given how 1) abysmally low his usage rate was (Deng of all players had a higher usg % at some point), and 2) how many times Lou Williams and Jordan Clarkson alternated chucking the ball when he was on the court. We were deceived, fooled and bamboozled because stats weren't put in their proper context (RPM in particular was abused to prove this "point"). This is the same stat that ranked Jae Crowder over John Wall, and Dean Oliver, the father of advanced statistics, criticized it endlessly for not giving us quarter to quarter breakdowns (which would have been useful for Ingram given how he was ball watching one quarter and scoring the next).

Even as a rookie, his second half improvement was significant enough to put him in the average to below average tier, and this was with Lou and Clarkson hogging the ball. People took a relatively questionable metric out of context and used it to smear him endlessly, only because they had a personal gripe with how D'Angelo Russell was criticized. Keep in mind that the people who kept peddling the "worst player in the league" narrative also compared him to Dante Exum or Myles Turner last season. Those ridiculous takes were one of the reasons why I stopped posting here.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:48 am    Post subject:

Really dumb move to keep Kuzma over Ingram just to preserve cap space for KCP...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Really dumb move to keep Kuzma over Ingram just to preserve cap space for KCP...

Wait what????
Ingram will be getting a max contract next season.
Kuzma will be only a rookie contract again.

And again. I am not sure anywhere it said Griffin would have taken Kuzma over Ingram.

More like it was probably Kuzma over Hart, and we worked to keep Kyle.
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PayasoLoco
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
No, they were reporting factual stats at that time. I was one who posted that he would have a slow start but improve in subsequent seasons. He was nowhere close to a good NBA player as a rookie. And I expect him to keep improving.

Ya saying downplaying his 9 assist were due to him passing to 3 point shooters was a great indicator of pure hate he had for BI.
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PayasoLoco
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:03 am    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
It's funny when people tried to debate the ceilings of Kuz/BI. Pretty clear that BI had the much higher ceiling even if Kuz (thanks to age) had a higher floor relatively speaking.

Happy to see him doing well. Wish it could have been on the Lakers but he was one of the main reasons we got AD too.

Its funny how some really prominent posters on this board were trashing BI saying hes the worst starter in the league have gone silent


It’s funnier that what they posted was something you obviously didn’t understand. Mathematically he was his rookie year.


He actually wasn't. If you break down those stats, they had no weight given how 1) abysmally low his usage rate was (Deng of all players had a higher usg % at some point), and 2) how many times Lou Williams and Jordan Clarkson alternated chucking the ball when he was on the court. We were deceived, fooled and bamboozled because stats weren't put in their proper context (RPM in particular was abused to prove this "point"). This is the same stat that ranked Jae Crowder over John Wall, and Dean Oliver, the father of advanced statistics, criticized it endlessly for not giving us quarter to quarter breakdowns (which would have been useful for Ingram given how he was ball watching one quarter and scoring the next).

Even as a rookie, his second half improvement was significant enough to put him in the average to below average tier, and this was with Lou and Clarkson hogging the ball. People took a relatively questionable metric out of context and used it to smear him endlessly, only because they had a personal gripe with how D'Angelo Russell was criticized. Keep in mind that the people who kept peddling the "worst player in the league" narrative also compared him to Dante Exum or Myles Turner last season. Those ridiculous takes were one of the reasons why I stopped posting here.

Someone that actual remembers how ridiculous LG posters were towards BI cuz people werent high on DLo year before. I applaud you
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject:

PayasoLoco wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
It's funny when people tried to debate the ceilings of Kuz/BI. Pretty clear that BI had the much higher ceiling even if Kuz (thanks to age) had a higher floor relatively speaking.

Happy to see him doing well. Wish it could have been on the Lakers but he was one of the main reasons we got AD too.

Its funny how some really prominent posters on this board were trashing BI saying hes the worst starter in the league have gone silent


It’s funnier that what they posted was something you obviously didn’t understand. Mathematically he was his rookie year.


He actually wasn't. If you break down those stats, they had no weight given how 1) abysmally low his usage rate was (Deng of all players had a higher usg % at some point), and 2) how many times Lou Williams and Jordan Clarkson alternated chucking the ball when he was on the court. We were deceived, fooled and bamboozled because stats weren't put in their proper context (RPM in particular was abused to prove this "point"). This is the same stat that ranked Jae Crowder over John Wall, and Dean Oliver, the father of advanced statistics, criticized it endlessly for not giving us quarter to quarter breakdowns (which would have been useful for Ingram given how he was ball watching one quarter and scoring the next).

Even as a rookie, his second half improvement was significant enough to put him in the average to below average tier, and this was with Lou and Clarkson hogging the ball. People took a relatively questionable metric out of context and used it to smear him endlessly, only because they had a personal gripe with how D'Angelo Russell was criticized. Keep in mind that the people who kept peddling the "worst player in the league" narrative also compared him to Dante Exum or Myles Turner last season. Those ridiculous takes were one of the reasons why I stopped posting here.

Someone that actual remembers how ridiculous LG posters were towards BI cuz people werent high on DLo year before. I applaud you


Even last year. Lounge poll after lounge poll put him below Lonzo and Kuzma as a priority for keeping around.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject:

Yeah, can we drop the we had a choice between kuzma and Ingram thing? I highly doubt the pelicans gave us a choice between the two. It was probably they wanted kuz too, but Rob negotiated hart plus the #4 (and picks).
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:57 pm    Post subject:

oaktown_dimond wrote:
Yeah, can we drop the we had a choice between kuzma and Ingram thing? I highly doubt the pelicans gave us a choice between the two. It was probably they wanted kuz too, but Rob negotiated hart plus the #4 (and picks).

It's tough to drop. Kuz's trade value was high last year. He was considered more durable than BI. His contract was more cap friendly than BI's. And Ingram suffered an illness that eventually ended Bosh's career.
I think WE made the choice more than the Pelicans. We wanted the cap space for Kawhi. But Ingram's 7 million ended up going to KCP.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:57 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Really dumb move to keep Kuzma over Ingram just to preserve cap space for KCP...

Wait what????
Ingram will be getting a max contract next season.
Kuzma will be only a rookie contract again.

And again. I am not sure anywhere it said Griffin would have taken Kuzma over Ingram.

More like it was probably Kuzma over Hart, and we worked to keep Kyle.


If that’s the case, Hart actually fits better
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:59 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
PayasoLoco wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
It's funny when people tried to debate the ceilings of Kuz/BI. Pretty clear that BI had the much higher ceiling even if Kuz (thanks to age) had a higher floor relatively speaking.

Happy to see him doing well. Wish it could have been on the Lakers but he was one of the main reasons we got AD too.

Its funny how some really prominent posters on this board were trashing BI saying hes the worst starter in the league have gone silent


It’s funnier that what they posted was something you obviously didn’t understand. Mathematically he was his rookie year.


He actually wasn't. If you break down those stats, they had no weight given how 1) abysmally low his usage rate was (Deng of all players had a higher usg % at some point), and 2) how many times Lou Williams and Jordan Clarkson alternated chucking the ball when he was on the court. We were deceived, fooled and bamboozled because stats weren't put in their proper context (RPM in particular was abused to prove this "point"). This is the same stat that ranked Jae Crowder over John Wall, and Dean Oliver, the father of advanced statistics, criticized it endlessly for not giving us quarter to quarter breakdowns (which would have been useful for Ingram given how he was ball watching one quarter and scoring the next).

Even as a rookie, his second half improvement was significant enough to put him in the average to below average tier, and this was with Lou and Clarkson hogging the ball. People took a relatively questionable metric out of context and used it to smear him endlessly, only because they had a personal gripe with how D'Angelo Russell was criticized. Keep in mind that the people who kept peddling the "worst player in the league" narrative also compared him to Dante Exum or Myles Turner last season. Those ridiculous takes were one of the reasons why I stopped posting here.

Someone that actual remembers how ridiculous LG posters were towards BI cuz people werent high on DLo year before. I applaud you


Even last year. Lounge poll after lounge poll put him below Lonzo and Kuzma as a priority for keeping around.


It was beyond ridiculous, I thought I was in living in a twilight zone or something. Even Lebron kept force feeding Kuzma cos he bought into the false narrative that Kuz fit better yet Kuz kept bricking and bricking and bricking it was touch to watch
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:20 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
oaktown_dimond wrote:
Yeah, can we drop the we had a choice between kuzma and Ingram thing? I highly doubt the pelicans gave us a choice between the two. It was probably they wanted kuz too, but Rob negotiated hart plus the #4 (and picks).

It's tough to drop. Kuz's trade value was high last year. He was considered more durable than BI. His contract was more cap friendly than BI's. And Ingram suffered an illness that eventually ended Bosh's career.
I think WE made the choice more than the Pelicans. We wanted the cap space for Kawhi. But Ingram's 7 million ended up going to KCP.


Jeanie put her foot down, then went to dinner with him a night before the trade was executed. THEY made that choice for the Pels, the Pels didn’t want a player that was at the risk of a career ending injury, while also eligible for a substantial pay raise if not the max. No way they prioritized Ingram over Kuz. All the reports that came out during that period also confirms this.

Griffin just recently came out and said no one was expecting a productive season like this from BI, no one except us that have been down with him since day one. Andre2k, Sentient Meat, SocalDevin, KindCrippler, PayasoLoco,
Kikanga, Luminous 8, Badiger, Dao, VicXLakers, mookielala, Mike (@) LG day1s, our support never wavered despite the hate but we were right all along guys

hopefully we get him back and pair him up with AD like we so badly wanted after he’s won his MVPs, MIPs, numerous scoring titles, first teams and 2nd teams, maybe even all defense teams
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:20 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
No, they were reporting factual stats at that time. I was one who posted that he would have a slow start but improve in subsequent seasons. He was nowhere close to a good NBA player as a rookie. And I expect him to keep improving.


You can talk about what you were doing.. but you can't deny facts about what others were doing.

"He probably won't ever be a good shooter because of his FT%.. "

"Very few players in the history of this league, based on his data have ever become all-stars or good players"

In other words, other players who've had similar numbers didn't amount to much. So he's not amounting to much as well. You can't predict the future with analytics. I've had many exchanges with quality posters about this very thing.

You are absolutely wrong.. Plenty, tried to use data to push a narrative of what he would never be.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:12 pm    Post subject:

He will be the best player we drafted this century, I think. Not a lot competition, but still...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject:

The thing that keeps me from losing much sleep over BI is that there is still no elite freakish athleticism, and there is still no elite handles. He's the same guy, but getting to eat more and making more of the same shots he took with us. His three is now money too. But he's not a transcendent talent. He's going to be good, like the many great SF scorers the NBA has already seen. Jamal Mashburn, Carmelo, Jerry Stackhouse, etc.

Having said that, I much rather have him than Kuz.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:09 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
No, they were reporting factual stats at that time. I was one who posted that he would have a slow start but improve in subsequent seasons. He was nowhere close to a good NBA player as a rookie. And I expect him to keep improving.


Actually one poster said he simply wasn’t a very good basketball player. Not NBA player, just plain old basketball. I’m guessing that’s what this guy is talking about perhaps?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:13 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
The thing that keeps me from losing much sleep over BI is that there is still no elite freakish athleticism, and there is still no elite handles. He's the same guy, but getting to eat more and making more of the same shots he took with us. His three is now money too. But he's not a transcendent talent. He's going to be good, like the many great SF scorers the NBA has already seen. Jamal Mashburn, Carmelo, Jerry Stackhouse, etc.

Having said that, I much rather have him than Kuz.


Brandon’s handle has looked insanely good imo. And he’s making some passes that I honestly didn’t even know he could make. The vision is much. Wetter than I remembered.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:48 am    Post subject:

Take BI out of the Pelicans deal and Griffin could just wait until July 1st, and then deal with Boston. Brown is better than Ball/Kuzma/Hart, and Marcus Smart/Baynes would only sweeten that deal. Boston owns three picks in this year's draft, including MEM's unprotected pick, and had four 1st rounders last year.

Ainge and Griffin worked together in the past (Ainge was his mentor), and they met just before our deal for AD was completed. Doubt it was to reminisce.

As people have pointed out, Ball and Hart were coming off surgeries, and Kuzma had a disappointing 2019. His defense is still non-existent. But somehow a segment of LG thinks opposing GMs will bend to our will as if we are the only trade partner in the league.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:05 am    Post subject:

Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote:
Take BI out of the Pelicans deal and Griffin could just wait until July 1st, and then deal with Boston. Brown is better than Ball/Kuzma/Hart, and Marcus Smart/Baynes would only sweeten that deal. Boston owns three picks in this year's draft, including MEM's unprotected pick, and had four 1st rounders last year.

Ainge and Griffin worked together in the past (Ainge was his mentor), and they met just before our deal for AD was completed. Doubt it was to reminisce.

As people have pointed out, Ball and Hart were coming off surgeries, and Kuzma had a disappointing 2019. His defense is still non-existent. But somehow a segment of LG thinks opposing GMs will bend to our will as if we are the only trade partner in the league.

Lol most of LG and media did not think Kuz had a disappointing 2019 they thought he was future star
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:50 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
The thing that keeps me from losing much sleep over BI is that there is still no elite freakish athleticism, and there is still no elite handles. He's the same guy, but getting to eat more and making more of the same shots he took with us. His three is now money too. But he's not a transcendent talent. He's going to be good, like the many great SF scorers the NBA has already seen. Jamal Mashburn, Carmelo, Jerry Stackhouse, etc.

Having said that, I much rather have him than Kuz.


For a guy who doesn't trust his first step, he had an impressive display against the best defense in the league last night. Here are all of his sequences:


In my opinion, he's more explosive than he lets on. I think his past injury situations have made him more cautious with how he attack the basket. Those long dribbles along with the quick first step give him the ability to get past 90% of defenders in this league. His handles were phenomenal there at the end.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject:

PayasoLoco wrote:
Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote:
Take BI out of the Pelicans deal and Griffin could just wait until July 1st, and then deal with Boston. Brown is better than Ball/Kuzma/Hart, and Marcus Smart/Baynes would only sweeten that deal. Boston owns three picks in this year's draft, including MEM's unprotected pick, and had four 1st rounders last year.

Ainge and Griffin worked together in the past (Ainge was his mentor), and they met just before our deal for AD was completed. Doubt it was to reminisce.

As people have pointed out, Ball and Hart were coming off surgeries, and Kuzma had a disappointing 2019. His defense is still non-existent. But somehow a segment of LG thinks opposing GMs will bend to our will as if we are the only trade partner in the league.

Lol most of LG and media did not think Kuz had a disappointing 2019 they thought he was future star


I was unaware that GMs around the league take their cues from LG and this unnamed "media". Guess I stand corrected....
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:35 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
The thing that keeps me from losing much sleep over BI is that there is still no elite freakish athleticism, and there is still no elite handles. He's the same guy, but getting to eat more and making more of the same shots he took with us. His three is now money too. But he's not a transcendent talent. He's going to be good, like the many great SF scorers the NBA has already seen. Jamal Mashburn, Carmelo, Jerry Stackhouse, etc.

Having said that, I much rather have him than Kuz.


Why are Stackhouse and Mashburn in the same category as Carmelo?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:45 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
The thing that keeps me from losing much sleep over BI is that there is still no elite freakish athleticism, and there is still no elite handles. He's the same guy, but getting to eat more and making more of the same shots he took with us. His three is now money too. But he's not a transcendent talent. He's going to be good, like the many great SF scorers the NBA has already seen. Jamal Mashburn, Carmelo, Jerry Stackhouse, etc.

Having said that, I much rather have him than Kuz.


Why are Stackhouse and Mashburn in the same category as Carmelo?


Cause they're not the best of the best like Bron, KD, Bird, etc. Then everyone else. I don't bother with breaking things down into too many tiers. But yeah, we can nitpick that Melo is above those guys a little. Maybe Melo is with Mark Aquirre and Dominique Wilkins... How about Worthy? Nah, he's below Worthy, below Bernard King.... You see, too many subjective tiers. What's clear is they're not the best of the best.

That's all I'm saying. The thing that keeps me from losing too much sleep about BI is that he's not going to be part of that transcendent group. He'll be a heck of a player though.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:53 pm    Post subject:

He's better than Ben Simmons at this point.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:01 pm    Post subject:

LakerLogic wrote:
He's better than Ben Simmons at this point.


I've never been sold on Simmons like the media has. I'm not convinced that he'll be anything more than Lamar Odom when it's said and done.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:52 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
LakerLogic wrote:
He's better than Ben Simmons at this point.


I've never been sold on Simmons like the media has. I'm not convinced that he'll be anything more than Lamar Odom when it's said and done.


Eventually Ben Simmons may pull his head out of his ass and become an all-time great. Until then, Boston will take up permanent residence in the NBA Finals.
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