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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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BI puts up better counting stats than Justice Winslow, but his development is very interesting to me.
Came in a complete non shooter (27%, 20% from 3). Not a great scorer but pretty stout defender. Now he's shooting 39% from 3 on 3.4 attempts a game. Putting up 11/5/3 in 28mpg. He got a 13m/year extension.
If BI would agree to something in the 15-17m/year extension range (basically inflated a bit more than what Winslow gets), would folks feel happy about that? I think Winslow has improved his 3 point shooting and has become a productive passer.
Many fear that BI will get a large contract but what if he doesn't and is on a more reasonable deal. Wouldn't that substantially change things?
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | BI puts up better counting stats than Justice Winslow, but his development is very interesting to me.
Came in a complete non shooter (27%, 20% from 3). Not a great scorer but pretty stout defender. Now he's shooting 39% from 3 on 3.4 attempts a game. Putting up 11/5/3 in 28mpg. He got a 13m/year extension.
If BI would agree to something in the 15-17m/year extension range (basically inflated a bit more than what Winslow gets), would folks feel happy about that? I think Winslow has improved his 3 point shooting and has become a productive passer.
Many fear that BI will get a large contract but what if he doesn't and is on a more reasonable deal. Wouldn't that substantially change things? |
Ingram needs a breakout series of games like Kuzma has just had.
What makes the Warriors great is that when one is cold... another steps up.
Ingram needs to take his turn as the two to justify paying him... He doesn't need to be as explosive offensively as Kuzma... but he needs to be better than where he is now... maybe putting up a series of high teens low twenty point games on efficient shooting.
At the beginning of the season Brandon had the edge over Kuzma with his defense... but if Kuzma keeps up his elite scoring... he becomes the most likely candidate to get paid by the front office.
If both falter... it becomes an easy decision to trade them... if both do well it becomes difficult because then you wonder if you keep them as the third option and heir to LBJ when he retires or trade them for a bigger star. |
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cal1piggy
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Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 2584
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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how about this?
starters (lbj, zo, kuz, mcgee, bi) play first 6 minutes of Q1 and first 4 minutes of Q3
death lineup (lbj, hart, bi, chandler, kuz) plays last 2 minutes of Q2 and last 4 minutes of Q4
when lbj is out of lineup, bi is always in.
kcp replaces bi during fouling time
Q1
0-6 - lbj, zo, kuz, mcgee, bi
7-8 - lbj, zo, kuz, chandler, hart
9-10 - lbj, rondo, kuz, chandler, hart
11-12 - bi, rondo, svi, chandler, hart
Q2
0-2 - bi, rondo, svi, mcgee, kcp
3-4 - bi, rondo, svi, mcgee, kcp
5-6 - bi, rondo, zo, chandler, kcp
7-8 - lbj, hart, zo, chandler, kuz
9-10 - lbj, hart, zo, chandler, kuz
11-12 - lbj, hart, bi, chandler, kuz
Q3
0-4 - lbj, zo, kuz, mcgee, bi
5-6 - lbj, zo, kuz, mcgee, hart
7-8 - lbj, rondo, kuz, chandler, hart
9-10 - bi, rondo, kcp, chandler, hart
11-12 -bi, rondo, kcp, chandler, svi
Q4
0-2 - bi, zo, kcp, mcgee, svi
3-4 - bi, zo, kcp, mcgee, svi
5-8 - lbj, zo, hart, chandler, kuz
9-12 -lbj, bi, hart, chandler, kuz
minutes
lbj - 32
zo - 28
kuz - 32
mcgee - 20
bi - 32
svi - 12
hart - 26
rondo - 16
kcp - 14
chandler - 28 |
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botox
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Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 640
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | i'm never a believer of late boomer for NBA players. you either pass the eye test first couple seasons in or you don't. so far Ingram has not impressed me at all. the numbers he has putting up are decent, but how much of those are actually impactful? if you play any NBA player 35+ minutes and have him dominate the ball, 99% of them will put up similar or better numbers than BI. |
Depends on whose eye it is.
Normally, I feel the same way. By the third season, you get an idea of what you have in a player. But it would be shortsighted to judge Ingram
like that. He's no where near his physical peak. And he's still developing his skills. We are playing well, winning games and Ingram has had good and bad games. Go figure, he's 21. I hate watching him flail around the court and missing free throws, but I realize he's nowhere near a finished product.
Unless you can trade him for an AD type player, he's a keeper |
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SGV-Laker fan
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Joined: 23 May 2013
Posts: 8860
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| botox wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | i'm never a believer of late boomer for NBA players. you either pass the eye test first couple seasons in or you don't. so far Ingram has not impressed me at all. the numbers he has putting up are decent, but how much of those are actually impactful? if you play any NBA player 35+ minutes and have him dominate the ball, 99% of them will put up similar or better numbers than BI. |
Depends on whose eye it is.
Normally, I feel the same way. By the third season, you get an idea of what you have in a player. But it would be shortsighted to judge Ingram
like that. He's no where near his physical peak. And he's still developing his skills. We are playing well, winning games and Ingram has had good and bad games. Go figure, he's 21. I hate watching him flail around the court and missing free throws, but I realize he's nowhere near a finished product.
Unless you can trade him for an AD type player, he's a keeper |
or maybe he may never achieve that physical peak, some people's body just build that way, look at Tayshawn Prince, the guy had been skinny all his career. |
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Nash Vegas
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | @GT is about go be on ESPN710 RIGHT NOW |
Ireland on ESPN 710 saying Luke should play Ingram like Phil played Odom off the bench. But then added Ingram probably wouldn’t like coming off the bench.
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epak
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Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Nash Vegas wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | @GT is about go be on ESPN710 RIGHT NOW |
Ireland on ESPN 710 saying Luke should play Ingram like Phil played Odom off the bench. But then added Ingram probably wouldn’t like coming off the bench. |
Get it, GT!  |
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botox
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Posts: 640
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | botox wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | i'm never a believer of late boomer for NBA players. you either pass the eye test first couple seasons in or you don't. so far Ingram has not impressed me at all. the numbers he has putting up are decent, but how much of those are actually impactful? if you play any NBA player 35+ minutes and have him dominate the ball, 99% of them will put up similar or better numbers than BI. |
Depends on whose eye it is.
Normally, I feel the same way. By the third season, you get an idea of what you have in a player. But it would be shortsighted to judge Ingram
like that. He's no where near his physical peak. And he's still developing his skills. We are playing well, winning games and Ingram has had good and bad games. Go figure, he's 21. I hate watching him flail around the court and missing free throws, but I realize he's nowhere near a finished product.
Unless you can trade him for an AD type player, he's a keeper |
or maybe he may never achieve that physical peak, some people's body just build that way, look at Tayshawn Prince, the guy had been skinny all his career. |
Yet Prince had a nice career. If that's his floor, we are in good shape |
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| botox wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | botox wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | i'm never a believer of late boomer for NBA players. you either pass the eye test first couple seasons in or you don't. so far Ingram has not impressed me at all. the numbers he has putting up are decent, but how much of those are actually impactful? if you play any NBA player 35+ minutes and have him dominate the ball, 99% of them will put up similar or better numbers than BI. |
Depends on whose eye it is.
Normally, I feel the same way. By the third season, you get an idea of what you have in a player. But it would be shortsighted to judge Ingram
like that. He's no where near his physical peak. And he's still developing his skills. We are playing well, winning games and Ingram has had good and bad games. Go figure, he's 21. I hate watching him flail around the court and missing free throws, but I realize he's nowhere near a finished product.
Unless you can trade him for an AD type player, he's a keeper |
or maybe he may never achieve that physical peak, some people's body just build that way, look at Tayshawn Prince, the guy had been skinny all his career. |
Yet Prince had a nice career. If that's his floor, we are in good shape |
Ingram already exceeded Prince's career highs at the age of 20... than at any point in his 14 year championship winning career.
He's a basement level below Ingram's floor. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Ingram already exceeded Prince's career highs at the age of 20... than at any point in his 14 year championship winning career.
He's a basement level below Ingram's floor. |
But using raw stats isn't a way to measure on court efficacy. In a Finals series, would you take BI or Tay?
Saying Tay is BI's floor is fairly accurate. Tay was a very good NBA player who didn't put up big stats.
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Ingram already exceeded Prince's career highs at the age of 20... than at any point in his 14 year championship winning career.
He's a basement level below Ingram's floor. |
But using raw stats isn't a way to measure on court efficacy. In a Finals series, would you take BI or Tay?
Saying Tay is BI's floor is fairly accurate. Tay was a very good NBA player who didn't put up big stats. |
Agree it's not a crazy comment... but people need to know that a skinny, undeveloped, unfinished Ingram already exceeded Tayshaun offensively.
I also agree with the poster that sometimes guys don't get much stronger.
But Ingram was 20 when he exceeded his numbers and Tayshaun was 22 when he entered the league
We aren't talking about a Kuzma who played four years in college.
It's more likely he gets better than that he peaked at 20. |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Ingram already exceeded Prince's career highs at the age of 20... than at any point in his 14 year championship winning career.
He's a basement level below Ingram's floor. |
But using raw stats isn't a way to measure on court efficacy. In a Finals series, would you take BI or Tay?
Saying Tay is BI's floor is fairly accurate. Tay was a very good NBA player who didn't put up big stats. |
Prime Tayshaun was considerably more impactful than Ingram is. If Ingram is willing to take a lesser role and play more like Tayshaun, he could be as good as quickly as this year. Knowing your limitations and the role in which you can have success is an underrated part of the game. Prince knew exactly who he was, BI is quite the opposite. As you said, raw stats don’t tell the whole story. |
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Sentient Meat
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Joined: 04 Jul 2014
Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Ingram already exceeded Prince's career highs at the age of 20... than at any point in his 14 year championship winning career.
He's a basement level below Ingram's floor. |
But using raw stats isn't a way to measure on court efficacy. In a Finals series, would you take BI or Tay?
Saying Tay is BI's floor is fairly accurate. Tay was a very good NBA player who didn't put up big stats. |
Prime Tayshaun was considerably more impactful than Ingram is. If Ingram is willing to take a lesser role and play more like Tayshaun, he could be as good as quickly as this year. Knowing your limitations and the role in which you can have success is an underrated part of the game. Prince knew exactly who he was, BI is quite the opposite. As you said, raw stats don’t tell the whole story. |
Where I agree with some of you is that Ingram should be used as the Tayshaun or Lamar type player until his offense justifies a #2 position.
Ingram needs to accept that until he's can consistently score... he will have to take back seat to Kuzma or whoever we sign next year.
If he doesn't accept this role... then we should trade him.
Hopefully we can find a way to utilize his skills and nurture his development so that doesn't happen. |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | Ingram already exceeded Prince's career highs at the age of 20... than at any point in his 14 year championship winning career.
He's a basement level below Ingram's floor. |
But using raw stats isn't a way to measure on court efficacy. In a Finals series, would you take BI or Tay?
Saying Tay is BI's floor is fairly accurate. Tay was a very good NBA player who didn't put up big stats. |
Prime Tayshaun was considerably more impactful than Ingram is. If Ingram is willing to take a lesser role and play more like Tayshaun, he could be as good as quickly as this year. Knowing your limitations and the role in which you can have success is an underrated part of the game. Prince knew exactly who he was, BI is quite the opposite. As you said, raw stats don’t tell the whole story. |
Where I agree with some of you is that Ingram should be used as the Tayshaun or Lamar type player until his offense justifies a #2 position.
Ingram needs to accept that until he's can consistently score... he will have to take back seat to Kuzma or whoever we sign next year.
If he doesn't accept this role... then we should trade him.
Hopefully we can find a way to utilize his skills and nurture his development so that doesn't happen. |
Agree. Ingram should be our 3/D guy although I don't think he sees himself as that. But if he doesn't, then he needs to step it up and quick. |
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numero-ocho
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 18203
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Nash Vegas wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | @GT is about go be on ESPN710 RIGHT NOW |
Ireland on ESPN 710 saying Luke should play Ingram like Phil played Odom off the bench. But then added Ingram probably wouldn’t like coming off the bench. |
If it's about what's best for the team then who cares what Ingram likes or doesn't like? He's not good enough to be dictating terms.
Odom was a way better player than Ingram and established himself as a player long before he became a Laker. He accepted his 6th man role for the good of the team and found a way to flourish.
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SGV-Laker fan
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Joined: 23 May 2013
Posts: 8860
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| numero-ocho wrote: | | Nash Vegas wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | @GT is about go be on ESPN710 RIGHT NOW |
Ireland on ESPN 710 saying Luke should play Ingram like Phil played Odom off the bench. But then added Ingram probably wouldn’t like coming off the bench. |
If it's about what's best for the team then who cares what Ingram likes or doesn't like? He's not good enough to be dictating terms.
Odom was a way better player than Ingram and established himself as a player long before he became a Laker. He accepted his 6th man role for the good of the team and found a way to flourish. |
that's the key right there, he's not good enough to have lineup changes surrounding his skills or lack thereof. |
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ringfinger
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Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | numero-ocho wrote: | | Nash Vegas wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | @GT is about go be on ESPN710 RIGHT NOW |
Ireland on ESPN 710 saying Luke should play Ingram like Phil played Odom off the bench. But then added Ingram probably wouldn’t like coming off the bench. |
If it's about what's best for the team then who cares what Ingram likes or doesn't like? He's not good enough to be dictating terms.
Odom was a way better player than Ingram and established himself as a player long before he became a Laker. He accepted his 6th man role for the good of the team and found a way to flourish. |
that's the key right there, he's not good enough to have lineup changes surrounding his skills or lack thereof. |
But if he refuses to come off the bench, then what do you do?
You gotta start him while you work on trades. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Really wish the coaching staff developed him from the ground up and didn't force "option 1" roles to him last year. It's always more difficult to reduce a player's role downward and much easier to build them up to stardom.
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SGV-Laker fan
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Joined: 23 May 2013
Posts: 8860
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | numero-ocho wrote: | | Nash Vegas wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | @GT is about go be on ESPN710 RIGHT NOW |
Ireland on ESPN 710 saying Luke should play Ingram like Phil played Odom off the bench. But then added Ingram probably wouldn’t like coming off the bench. |
If it's about what's best for the team then who cares what Ingram likes or doesn't like? He's not good enough to be dictating terms.
Odom was a way better player than Ingram and established himself as a player long before he became a Laker. He accepted his 6th man role for the good of the team and found a way to flourish. |
that's the key right there, he's not good enough to have lineup changes surrounding his skills or lack thereof. |
But if he refuses to come off the bench, then what do you do?
You gotta start him while you work on trades. |
i seriously doubt he refuses coming off the bench, he will pout for sure or maybe even punch Luke (j/k), but i don't think he will jeopardize his career as a malcontent by refuse does that coach tells him to. |
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BigGameHames
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Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | | numero-ocho wrote: | | Nash Vegas wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | @GT is about go be on ESPN710 RIGHT NOW |
Ireland on ESPN 710 saying Luke should play Ingram like Phil played Odom off the bench. But then added Ingram probably wouldn’t like coming off the bench. |
If it's about what's best for the team then who cares what Ingram likes or doesn't like? He's not good enough to be dictating terms.
Odom was a way better player than Ingram and established himself as a player long before he became a Laker. He accepted his 6th man role for the good of the team and found a way to flourish. |
that's the key right there, he's not good enough to have lineup changes surrounding his skills or lack thereof. |
But if he refuses to come off the bench, then what do you do?
You gotta start him while you work on trades. |
Bench him anyways and let him pout. You don’t allow role players to strongarm your staff or FO. That’s a matter of principle that is followed by the top organizations in sports. I don’t think Ingram would refuse although I think he would be openly upset. |
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SGV-Laker fan
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Joined: 23 May 2013
Posts: 8860
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Really wish the coaching staff developed him from the ground up and didn't force "option 1" roles to him last year. It's always more difficult to reduce a player's role downward and much easier to build them up to stardom. |
last season it was not coaching staff's fault. before LeBron's arrival and Kuz's erruption, Ingram was our no. 1 option last season. but it is now Ingram's fault not to adapt to this new team. |
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Sentient Meat
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Posts: 12978
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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You need to find a balance between asserting control over a player and not completely crushing him mentally and burning all bridges.
The smart management gently convinces a player to see the light.
It's not the old days where you can just order people what to do.
Some tact is necessary if you want to keep together some talented assets or you might end up like Popovich did with Kawhi.
(And no, I'm not comparing Ingram's ability to KL... I'm simply saying a smart management team tries to keep talent happy... yet keeping the best interests of the team front and center.) |
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Threatt_Level
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: |
Agree. Ingram should be our 3/D guy although I don't think he sees himself as that. But if he doesn't, then he needs to step it up and quick. |
He can't be a 3/D guy. He can't hit the 3. He can be more like a budget Lamar Odom, which is fine, but no cornerstone. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Threatt_Level wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
Agree. Ingram should be our 3/D guy although I don't think he sees himself as that. But if he doesn't, then he needs to step it up and quick. |
He can't be a 3/D guy. He can't hit the 3. He can be more like a budget Lamar Odom, which is fine, but no cornerstone. |
A Lamar who can't rebound or defend bigs... So what is he? |
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SGV-Laker fan
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Joined: 23 May 2013
Posts: 8860
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Threatt_Level wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
Agree. Ingram should be our 3/D guy although I don't think he sees himself as that. But if he doesn't, then he needs to step it up and quick. |
He can't be a 3/D guy. He can't hit the 3. He can be more like a budget Lamar Odom, which is fine, but no cornerstone. |
A Lamar who can't rebound or defend bigs... So what is he? |
he sure can dribble the hell of a ball. |
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