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TACH
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Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
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 Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | Steal money? Correct me if I'm wrong but it was the GOAT in Jordan who chose to give a kid straigh out f high school the money. Jordan and a group of business professionals who are supposed to be able to judge talent. After a combination of in excess of 50 years of NBA experience, it was that front office that CHOSE to GIVE Kwame in excess of $20 million with no track record to speak of. Kwame's not stealing. He didn't promise that he was capable of anything. He got a knock on his door and was offered big dollars for his potential. That's what happens when you gamble. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. Can't blame Kwame for that. And then an second organzation - the Lakers - chose to do the same thing, with 4 years of a resume that showed EXACTLY what they were purchasing. THEY CHOSE to give Kwame $8mil even with te benefit of a spotty NBA resume. Again, they gambled, and may have lost; but that certainly isn't Kwame stealing.... |
Actually Kwame chose to turn pro... he could of went to college, developed his game, then go pro. So in that since, I do not feel bad for him. He deserves the criticism he's been getting. His game has not improved at all since coming into the L. His offense is offensive, his defense sucks! I'll admit he's a presence on the floor, but that because of his size, not ability.
I'm just wondering what the organization saw in him that told them he was worth the gamble...
Last edited by TACH on Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Aussiesuede
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Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | My god folks...You act as if this is the first time taking a gamble on a 23yo hasn't worked out. 23 yo by definition are kids in transition. Expecting Kwame to do things like "reach out to KAJ" is hopeful at best, but unrealistic. Especially considering Kwame had no role models to learn from for the MAJORITY of his upbringing. An average kid would possibly do the responsible thing at 23, but good luck finding a kid with a background as damaged as Kwames maturing at a point much earlier than 27 - 29. It's simply not in the cards, and blaming him for that isn't productive, nor fair. I can't reiterate enough....He's 23 without the benefit of a role model at the formative ages of 8-14 to pattern after. His is a pretty predictable and textbook case. It's painful to see the misinformed jump all over this KID. |
23 year olds are "kids in transition" only in this bizarre world where we infatilize everyone, and people are perpetual children well into their late 20s, early 30s.
I know all about Kwame's past and it was one reason why I argued for giving him the benefit of the doubt in the trade to begin with. He was coaxed, coddled, given coaching, and, oh yeah, btw, here is the greatest center ever who will work with you one-on-one. No pressure, no mandated in his contract. Just, hey, here's a great player who's said great things about you (e.g. he can be a Karl Malone), and he's here to help you. He is apparently responsible enough to show up to practice, to show up to games, and do all that--so he's got some adult traits. How hard is it for him to accept Kareem's help? No, he's insolent about it--I'm a face up player. Please.
The damaged background thing only goes so far. He's now an adult, he's making $8 million a year and playing on the biggest stage in the game. So what, we should continue to pitty him because he was abused as a kid, because MJ was mean to him? That sucks. Many of us had crappy childhoods, had bad things happen in our lives. There's a point at which you can't keep using excuses. This is it for Kwame. The fact is, no one is going to give him until he's 30. He'll be out of the league at 25. Maybe that is for the better.
Bottom line--as a person, I feel for Kwame, he had it rough. As a professional, I think he's awful and turning down Kareem is the last straw. He should be in therapy--that personal stuff, he's got the means to begin to deal with it. But he's a millionaire, he isn't a tragic figure anymore. So it's pretty simple--one hour a day even, work with Kareem. Hook shot, hook shot, hook shot. If his childhood is preventing him from working on his game then I don't want him on the team. But if he can show up to practice, he can stay an hour later and work with Kareem. | Quote: | | Explain to me why he can't do that simple act? |
Something more important to do? |
Probably for much the same reason Shaq refused overtures from Kareem as well. Pride and immaturity. Plenty of today's NBA'rs are that way (dare I say MOST). Trying to single Kwame out as different tan most just doesn't make much since when you consider he's guilty of the same misguided judgement that affects 75% + of todays' NBA'rs.....
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gng930
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: |
Probably for much the same reason Shaq refused overtures from Kareem as well. Pride and immaturity. Plenty of today's NBA'rs are that way (dare I say MOST). Trying to single Kwame out as different tan most just doesn't make much since when you consider he's guilty of the same misguided judgement that affects 75% + of todays' NBA'rs..... |
^^^ Your argument might be valid if Kwame was a quarter as good as Shaq. Kwame is in danger of losing his starting job. If he continues at this pace...I don't see anybody offering him a contract once the Lakers drop him in 2007. Imagine that...a former 1st overall pick out of the NBA by 25. If that doesn't motivate him, what the hell will? Shaq was mentioned among the greatest and was winning rings. His sense of complacency was more understandable. Not right IMO, but a hell of a lot more understandable.
I'm sick of everybody making excuses for this guy. First it was Jordan's abuse and poor management/coaching by the Wizards. Now it's his childhood. What next...are we going to look for a family history of depression? |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| gng930 wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: |
Probably for much the same reason Shaq refused overtures from Kareem as well. Pride and immaturity. Plenty of today's NBA'rs are that way (dare I say MOST). Trying to single Kwame out as different tan most just doesn't make much since when you consider he's guilty of the same misguided judgement that affects 75% + of todays' NBA'rs..... |
^^^ Your argument might be valid if Kwame was a quarter as good as Shaq. Kwame is in danger of losing his starting job. If he continues at this pace...I don't see anybody offering him a contract once the Lakers drop him in 2007. Imagine that...a former 1st overall pick out of the NBA by 25. If that doesn't motivate him, what the hell will? Shaq was mentioned among the greatest and was winning rings. His sense of complacency was more understandable. Not right IMO, but a hell of a lot more understandable.
I'm sick of everybody making excuses for this guy. First it was Jordan's abuse and poor management/coaching by the Wizards. Now it's his childhood. What next...are we going to look for a family history of depression? |
It would not be the first time a #1 was out of the league by 25, and I doubt it would bother Kwame all that much if it happened to him. Basketball doesn't seem to be his primary passion, as I've stated before. Re: not giving him a contract? The Lakers took a chance and it's likely another team would as well. Remember, he's a player who was benched in the playoffs less than 8 weeks before the Lakers signed on. Also, as I stated earlier, it would not surprise me to see Kwame be immediately productive in a traditional system. Then we'd be hearing all the "why didn't he do that stuff with the Lakers" bs. Confidence is an interesting thing. Right now Kwame has none and it shows. If he returned to a system that was already familiar and he didn't have to learn and produce at the same time he just might get back to the point he was in Washington. Or not....Just as it was when he was drafted, and when the Lakers traded for him...it's all still a gamble. In a league of gamblers, someone else is likely to take a chance on him....
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scoobs
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakers should offer Kwame/George/Slava/1st round pick to Chicago for Duhon/Thomas. It is NBAGM101 that you dont trade a big for a small unless the smaller player is significantly better. Right now,Kwame is sucking and Duhon would be able to step in as the initiator. The Lakers could then work on trading Lamar,without having to worry about getting an initiator back in exchange. |
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LAL25
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Chicago might, MIGHT do Duhon for Kwame and this year's 1st round pick, although they already have New York's, which will definitely be a very high pick so even that is questionable. |
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SQUAD UP
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Kwame for Duhon? In a heartbeat. Finally we'll get a real point guard that can play some defense. |
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Smel Counts
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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No way is Kwame out of the league before he's 32 (barring an injury). Look at some of the crap floating around right now.
This would be his rookie year if he'd gone to college for 4 years.
He is a Karl Malone type, not a Center. He's a very 'short' 7 ft. Plays more like 6-8. He's got short arms and fingers for his size.
He will never be able to just dunk on everyone ala Shat. He's quick but not an explosive leaper.
He needs a running start and an open path to the hole to dunk. He's not an above the rim player.
He needs to keep developing his face-up game a la Mailman. Malone was a rookie at 23 years old and couldn't make a jumper or a FT to save his life. Why do you think he was drafted so low despite 4 years of college against lower division opponents?
He did have a great work ethic and a mean streak however. His hands were better than Kwame's can ever be but Kwame already has better mid-range and FT fundamentals than Malone at this age.
The first think Frank Layden told Malone in his first rookie camp was, "Your amazing physique is practically worthless if you can't shoot". Malone took that to heart and practiced endlessly. He never became a back to the basket post player. He excelled in face-up and pick and rolls and pops. Kwame will do the same thing if he wants to be an all-star.
Unfortunately he'll be long gone from the Lakers before that can ever happen.
p.s. we can't trade Kwame right now because he's a huge expiring contract beginning this summer. The team option for the following year is attractive as well. Also, Thomas comes off the books this year and they'll be able to sign a much better big than Kwame this off-season anyway. Mihm is way too valuable to trade for a Duhon. Although Duhon is the kind of player we could use. Aaron Miles is a poor man's version of Duhon that we can get for free right now. Golden State loved him but already had 3 pgs and Dunleavy. |
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Aussiesuede
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Smel Counts wrote: | No way is Kwame out of the league before he's 32 (barring an injury). Look at some of the crap floating around right now.
This would be his rookie year if he'd gone to college for 4 years.
He is a Karl Malone type, not a Center. He's a very 'short' 7 ft. Plays more like 6-8. He's got short arms and fingers for his size.
He will never be able to just dunk on everyone ala Shat. He's quick but not an explosive leaper.
He needs a running start and an open path to the hole to dunk. He's not an above the rim player.
He needs to keep developing his face-up game a la Mailman. Malone was a rookie at 23 years old and couldn't make a jumper or a FT to save his life. Why do you think he was drafted so low despite 4 years of college against lower division opponents?
He did have a great work ethic and a mean streak however. His hands were better than Kwame's can ever be but Kwame already has better mid-range and FT fundamentals than Malone at this age.
The first think Frank Layden told Malone in his first rookie camp was, "Your amazing physique is practically worthless if you can't shoot". Malone took that to heart and practiced endlessly. He never became a back to the basket post player. He excelled in face-up and pick and rolls and pops. Kwame will do the same thing if he wants to be an all-star.
Unfortunately he'll be long gone from the Lakers before that can ever happen.
p.s. we can't trade Kwame right now because he's a huge expiring contract beginning this summer. The team option for the following year is attractive as well. Also, Thomas comes off the books this year and they'll be able to sign a much better big than Kwame this off-season anyway. Mihm is way too valuable to trade for a Duhon. Although Duhon is the kind of player we could use. Aaron Miles is a poor man's version of Duhon that we can get for free right now. Golden State loved him but already had 3 pgs and Dunleavy. |
Smel...Stop making sense. Stop it right now! 
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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angel
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Good! How about Slava? 
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Just_Looking wrote:
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You don't trade a starting 7' center who is finally reaching consistency for an undersized 2nd year point guard. And what would our starting line-up be then ... Smush, Duhon, Kobe, Odom and Kwame??????? Mihm doesn't go unless it's for a major impact player or 2/3 promising youngsters.
We've all just got to stop all this constant screaming for a trade every time anyone is rumored to be available
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My sentiments exactly... 
Key here is STARTING 7' CENTER. Mihm has at times arguably been our 2nd best players on some nights recently. Mihm is now just starting to show serious promise.
Think of how many teams actually have a 7' center who at just 26 is starting to consistently put up 15-9 stats for the most part for the past several weeks.
Please let's not panic people...
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LakerJam
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Location: Sherman Oaks, CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| hoopschick29 wrote: | | Here's the thing, people. We're not exactly in a position to be stuck up and picky. We have a team brimming over with untradeable scrubs. A move HAS to be made, otherwise, this team is going down down down like the Freefall at Six Flags. You're Mitch or Jimmy and the phone rings offering up Chris Duhon for Mihm or Cookie, you don't seriously consider that?? |
No, you don't. You don't trade a shot-blocking, athletic 7' big man who has been consistently putting up 12/7/1.5 over the past 30 days, while shooting 52% from the field; for 6'1" guard whose been averaging 7.2/2.4/5.1 on 40% FG over that same time span.
Mihm is our most consistent (only) low post scorer and shot blocker. That's far more valuable than Duhon. Though we do need to shake things up, this is not it. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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AirKobe8 wrote:
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Kwame for Duhon and a filler...that gives Cookie a starting spot and Bynum/Ronny PT, where do I sign?
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I don't think it is wise to trade a big the size and strength and age of Kwame for a player like Duhon. If we trade a big like Kwame for a small the small player has to have a lot more to bring than Duhon.
Kwame might be frustrating to all of us, but the fact is his value is much more than a player like Duhon. Kwame is only 23 years old, equivalent to a rookie in the league if he were to have gone to college for four years.
Very few teams in the league can boast players the size and age and potential (yes still potential folks) as Kwame.
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AutoShackMotorSports
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Joined: 25 May 2005
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Location: LakersGround.net
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Name one player who understood the triangle the first year they learned it? (Half a year to be exact) Kwame looks lost out there. I say give him a chance. |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| AutoShackMotorSports wrote: | | Name one player who understood the triangle the first year they learned it? (Half a year to be exact) Kwame looks lost out there. I say give him a chance. |
I agree. Besides, he's been a superb post-man defender for the most part all year. That's nothing to sneeze at, although I recognize that most fans here seem to only pay attention to offense. Otherwise, they wouldn't be ragging on Kwame so hard just because he's inept offensively, when he's our best defensive big man all year (last night not withstanding, of course). Doesn't mean I think he's Ben Wallace or anything, but he does have value because of that defense and athleticism. |
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Smel Counts
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Location: corner of Prairie and Manchester
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| AutoShackMotorSports wrote: | | Name one player who understood the triangle the first year they learned it? (Half a year to be exact) Kwame looks lost out there. I say give him a chance. |
Kobe. LOL Funny cause it's true. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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I still feel the same about this issue, though you make some good poinst Smel Counts.
I would deal Kwame in a heartbeat and the guy that I would like to see get PT is Ronny Turiaf.
Mihm/Turiaf starting combo next season along with (hopefully) a veteran presence at the bigman spots.
Antonio Davis is old but he's still a very good player for defesive rebounding and man D purposes. I would sign Davis with a portion of the MLE next season. |
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thumpinghead
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Dont Trade
Kobe
Mihm
Cook
George
Smush
Sasha
Bynum
Turiaf
That leaves Walton, Mckey and Brown, Medvedenko, Wafer and Green.....ALL GARBAGE, who will take our trash, a team looking to clear salary cap space, so...that leaves Medvedenko 3mil, nobody wants it
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| thumpinghead wrote: | Dont Trade
Kobe
Mihm
Cook
George
Smush
Sasha
Bynum
Turiaf
That leaves Walton, Mckey and Brown, Medvedenko, Wafer and Green.....ALL GARBAGE, who will take our trash, a team looking to clear salary cap space, so...that leaves Medvedenko 3mil, nobody wants it |
My don't trade players are:
Kobe
Bynum
Lamar (unless the player replaces what Lamar brings) |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: | | thumpinghead wrote: | Dont Trade
Kobe
Mihm
Cook
George
Smush
Sasha
Bynum
Turiaf
That leaves Walton, Mckey and Brown, Medvedenko, Wafer and Green.....ALL GARBAGE, who will take our trash, a team looking to clear salary cap space, so...that leaves Medvedenko 3mil, nobody wants it |
My don't trade players are:
Kobe
Bynum
Lamar (unless the player replaces what Lamar brings) |
You get it Jam. You really do. Excellent.
I share the exact same opinion. Odom is the most tradable of the 3, but only for certain players. |
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vicman
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| the point is you trade mihm now because his value is at a high. unless bynum fails miserably and even then mihm will not be retained unless that 2007 free agent you are waiting for is Mihm. i mean the guy will probably command 7-8 million so get a young cheap guy now because we are not going anywhere fellows |
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sodapoppenski
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Mihm's our best player after Kobe and LO.
In fact Mihm is probably the only "starting quality" player we have outside
of those two.
Duhon's breaking out a bit this year, but no WAY would I move Mihm for
him. Just bad basketball sense.
Mihm's top-15 in most per-48 categories among NBA starting-centers.
Duhon was on my short-list during the offseason for a PG, so I'm interested,
just not if it costs us Mihm. |
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Vlade
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Duhon would be a solid addition to this squad. Lakers should be actively pursuing this option.
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AmoebaD
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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>541<
I would trade mihms for Kirk Heinrich and Pargo. We'd be small temporarily on the inside but then we shore up our back-court that way.
For Duhon I would want a draft pick or a big (like Sweetney) to go along with him for mihms. Otherwise Duhon isn't probably worth gutting our inside for.
But Heinrich probably is worth trading for (at the expense of mihms).
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scoobs
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| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Heinrich or Duhon: Either one of them could replace Odom as the initiator and Odom could be traded for Lewis,Pierce or Stojakovic. I would trade Mihm AND a draft pick for Heinrich. |
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