Making a Murderer depicts miscarriages of justice that are not at all rare
Trevor Timm 6 January 2016
Quote:
The New Yorker published an excellent article a couple years back reporting on the highly controversial technique, which is used by police around the country despite not being based on any actual science. It turns out the method – where interrogators suggest and push events onto those they are interrogating for hours and constantly tell the suspects they are lying – is great at getting confessions but terrible at getting the truth, and it often leads to putting innocent people behind bars.
In another must-read article about the subject of false confessions, Judge Jed Rakoff explained in the New York Review of Books in 2014, “Research indicates that young, unintelligent, or risk-averse defendants will often provide false confessions just because they cannot ‘take the heat’ of an interrogation.” He cites an expert’s estimation that between 2 and 8% of all those who have pled guilty are actually innocent. Projected out over the United States’s two million prisoners, that is a massive number.
Making a Murderer also examines the nature of plea bargains and how defendants can be forced into taking them, even if they are innocent. Just because defendants plead guilty – even if they aren’t represented by the cartoonishly evil attorney in the series, who is basically shown working for the prosecutors rather than his client – doesn’t mean they did it. According to the National Registry of Exonerations, 47 of the 125 criminal exonerations in 2014 involved defendants who had originally pleaded guilty. That’s over 37% of them.
Ken Kratz and Dean Strang, the prosecutor and defense lawyer in the Steven Avery case, appeared on Megyn Kelly's show on Fox News.
Lawyers reveal the truth behind 'Making a Murderer'
Fox News
Published on Jan 5, 2016
Why do critics of the show claim it is not a documentary? I think people are confused, and think docs are supposed to be fair and balanced, but of all the documentaries I can remember, the majority of them are very heavily leaning in one direction or the other. ie: Michael Moore.
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:40 pm Post subject:
My biggest fear?
Drowning?
Spiders?
Naw.
It's probably getting caught in the US Justice System. Doing 18 years for some (bleep) you didn't do would really suck.
Just too much reasonable doubt in this case. Maybe the docu did leave out some stuff. And if Avery did kill her, he's one stupid dude. It's like you kill someone, and leave the car of the person you killed on your property?
Just crazy. Obviously that police department is shady. Lenk popping up everywhere - crooked. Just sad to see this going down in 'Murica and sad to see what happened to Brendon. I have a son who's special needs and to get an answer out of him sometimes is really difficult. Goes to show you that some lawyers really don't have their client's best interest at hand. Kid didn't even realize how much serious trouble he was in.
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:44 pm Post subject:
yinoma2001 wrote:
On the 2nd to last episode. I thought Avery's defense team was excellent. But seems that someone on the jury swayed the rest of them as one of the attorneys revealed that it was something like 7 innocent on the first jury vote (when they were deliberating).
I can probably tell you that the jury was tired of diliberating. They just wanted this to be over. And you just can't say F you when a people's lives are at stake. Just too much doubt and I could never have that on my conscience. You have to do what's right even if it means being hemmed up for another three weeks.
Joined: 20 Apr 2006 Posts: 15294 Location: Southern California
Posted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:47 pm Post subject:
kaoss128 wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
kaoss128 wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
kaoss128 wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Splash1 wrote:
The question I have is; who really killed Teresa Halbach (if not Steven Avery)?
The same guy it always is. The creepy ex boyfriend with stalker tendencies who was sweating on the stand. Ryan Hillegas.
He hacked into her voicemail after her murder!
He organized the search party that found the car on Avery's property!
And then was overly defensive when someone asked if it was him who found the vehicle personally.
I also think Mike Halbach (Theresa's brother) might know something he isn't saying. LINK
This reminds me of something that was said on the serial podcasts about Adnan Syed.
Steven Avery must be the most unluckiest man in the world to get convicted of assault, freed 18 years later, and about to win 36 million dollars but just happens to be the last person to see her alive before her ex-boyfriend kills her and the police just so happen to find the car and body and get the idea to frame him.
I mean what are the odds? I feel like he would have a better chance at getting struck by lightning three times.
Not the same imo. The sheriff's department was responsible for all those situations Steve was involved with. Not exactly unlucky if someone is forcing the hand.
Maybe if you think the police department killed Halbech. If you think someone else did it then the string of events that would have to happen is insane.
I'm not sure the police killed her, but it appears they had all the motives and means to frame Avery for it.
For the police to find a dead body and the last person to see her alive just happens to be Steve Avery is a pretty huge coincidence.
Basically. If my old lady has an affair with a dude in St. Louis and then says she has a business meeting in St. Louis, what are the odds. Just sad how someone can say it was him and that's enough to get you railroaded (1st case)
man, collect those receipts. and that might not even work. A cat in el Segundo was working while a crime in echo Park went down. Someone said later said he was the one who did it. Spent four days in county because the lazy cops didn't wanna drive 20 miles to check if dude was there. Hell, at least call.
I just finished it last night. Pretty riveting stuff. I finally read this thread because I didn't want any spoilers.
I read through the list of items on Avery on page 1 .... things the Documentary left out which would have skewed my feelings on the case.
My opinion at the end of the documentary ... the DA/Prosecution/Cops will do whatever they need to get their conviction. Avery comes off as a happy go lucky moron but "CREEPY". Do I think he's capable of murder, yes. Brendan sadly is probably better off in jail with his mental capacity.
I'm torn and have no idea what to think. I side with his attorney Strang who hopes Avery is guilty because it's sad/scary to see an innocent man screwed over by the justice system.
I think that's what I enjoyed about it. It was one-sided, and while I do feel Avery should get a new trial, I'm not completely convinced of his innocence either.
Joined: 05 Jul 2001 Posts: 4356 Location: Oxnard, CA - The Nard
Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:14 pm Post subject:
He's definitely guilty the blood evidence in the RAV4 is extremely damning. He was innocent on the first case but I think that serving jail time and his case against local Police Department gave him this get out of jail card for the next offense in his warped mind.
The test I really don't buy is the DNA on the bullet due to the failure of the negative control. The negative control should have been plain "buffer" from the same stock that was used to wash the bullet. If that buffer revealed a DNA profile it is really hard to say when it was introduced and whose it was, and how it would effect the interpretation of the test plate.
The test I really don't buy is the DNA on the bullet due to the failure of the negative control. The negative control should have been plain "buffer" from the same stock that was used to wash the bullet. If that buffer revealed a DNA profile it is really hard to say when it was introduced and whose it was, and how it would effect the interpretation of the test plate.
Ya. But then there was supposedly non-blood DNA on her car. The hood latch I think. That's the one that makes me wonder.
This kid shouldn't be serving. No physical evidence, repeat, NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE found on the scene that ties him in.
And you know why there is no evidence or even DNA evidence? That's because the cops don't have a sample of his DNA to plant it like they did with Steve from his 1985 conviction.
They convicted this kid for life simply based on coerced testimony. _________________
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29354 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 11:30 am Post subject:
This theory is the only 1 that makes any sense to me. It connects the Colburn call. It explains why remains of Halbach were at the quarry and in the barrels. And it explains why I thought Hillegas and Halbach bro's were hiding something in their TV interview about finding the car and on the stand.
I don't think Hillegas murdered Theresa anymore. Just think he lied on the stand.
Quote:
"The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on Oct.31st Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car. They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbachs he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call" in... instead of "radio" in... the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property. This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbachs RAV4... 2 days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.... This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically STFU about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn. Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.
What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo Rd on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints. I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit. This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme. .........By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, ....and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.
None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated... everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials. And Ken Kratz was right... Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steve Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steve Avery's bedroom..... he must have been like.... WTF?! A quote from Scott Tadych after Steven Avery is convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder.... "THIS IS THE GREATEST THING TO EVER HAPPEN"
_________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
The documentary is obviously shaded more towards Avery's presumption of innocence. But my take as an attorney, is that it showed just how unfair the criminal justice system was here, including the sheriff, the DA, and the court system.
The first public defender that Dassey got was an idiot. More concerned about publicity it seemed and he made the fatal mistake of having his client give a confession without him present.
But the very fact that police officers from a department that: 1) incorrectly or dare say intentionally framed him the first time; 2) was being sued by Avery was allowed to even set foot on the crime scene is a travesty of justice.
Great points, all.
It certainly was slanted towards Avery, however I don't see how any jury could convict with the evidence as presented.
To me the worst violators (besides James Lenk) are Dassey's first supposed defense attorney and Ken Kratz, the very shady, unethical and now disgraced DA on the case.
There is so much dirt on this case that both Dassey and Avery deserve new trials out of state under US supervision. _________________ Love, Laker Lanny
The test I really don't buy is the DNA on the bullet due to the failure of the negative control. The negative control should have been plain "buffer" from the same stock that was used to wash the bullet. If that buffer revealed a DNA profile it is really hard to say when it was introduced and whose it was, and how it would effect the interpretation of the test plate.
Ya. But then there was supposedly non-blood DNA on her car. The hood latch I think. That's the one that makes me wonder.
The Brendan Dassey testimony makes me wonder. In an early statement he says Steven told him he brought the body up from the quarry and told him he had killed her in the car. It seems like he doesn't say he saw the murder until after a few hours of questioning and being told "its okay" etc.
The documentary is obviously shaded more towards Avery's presumption of innocence. But my take as an attorney, is that it showed just how unfair the criminal justice system was here, including the sheriff, the DA, and the court system.
The first public defender that Dassey got was an idiot. More concerned about publicity it seemed and he made the fatal mistake of having his client give a confession without him present.
But the very fact that police officers from a department that: 1) incorrectly or dare say intentionally framed him the first time; 2) was being sued by Avery was allowed to even set foot on the crime scene is a travesty of justice.
Great points, all.
It certainly was slanted towards Avery, however I don't see how any jury could convict with the evidence as presented.
To me the worst violators (besides James Lenk) are Dassey's first supposed defense attorney and Ken Kratz, the very shady, unethical and now disgraced DA on the case.
There is so much dirt on this case that both Dassey and Avery deserve new trials out of state under US supervision.
Agreed. Colburn was suspicious as well. Particularly, the part when he called in a license plate that was the victim's car. If he wasn't looking at the car, why was he even calling it in to begin with?
The test I really don't buy is the DNA on the bullet due to the failure of the negative control. The negative control should have been plain "buffer" from the same stock that was used to wash the bullet. If that buffer revealed a DNA profile it is really hard to say when it was introduced and whose it was, and how it would effect the interpretation of the test plate.
Ya. But then there was supposedly non-blood DNA on her car. The hood latch I think. That's the one that makes me wonder.
The Brendan Dassey testimony makes me wonder. In an early statement he says Steven told him he brought the body up from the quarry and told him he had killed her in the car. It seems like he doesn't say he saw the murder until after a few hours of questioning and being told "its okay" etc.
Also the new Jodi allegations are pretty damning.
Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure if I believe Avery is innocent. But I do believe Dassey is (and if he was involved, he was coerced, IMO). In either case, new trials for both should be considered.
The test I really don't buy is the DNA on the bullet due to the failure of the negative control. The negative control should have been plain "buffer" from the same stock that was used to wash the bullet. If that buffer revealed a DNA profile it is really hard to say when it was introduced and whose it was, and how it would effect the interpretation of the test plate.
Ya. But then there was supposedly non-blood DNA on her car. The hood latch I think. That's the one that makes me wonder.
The Brendan Dassey testimony makes me wonder. In an early statement he says Steven told him he brought the body up from the quarry and told him he had killed her in the car. It seems like he doesn't say he saw the murder until after a few hours of questioning and being told "its okay" etc.
Also the new Jodi allegations are pretty damning.
Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure if I believe Avery is innocent. But I do believe Dassey is (and if he was involved, he was coerced, IMO). In either case, new trials for both should be considered.
I believe he was there and that he helped. With getting rid of the evidence and the body at least.
The test I really don't buy is the DNA on the bullet due to the failure of the negative control. The negative control should have been plain "buffer" from the same stock that was used to wash the bullet. If that buffer revealed a DNA profile it is really hard to say when it was introduced and whose it was, and how it would effect the interpretation of the test plate.
Ya. But then there was supposedly non-blood DNA on her car. The hood latch I think. That's the one that makes me wonder.
The Brendan Dassey testimony makes me wonder. In an early statement he says Steven told him he brought the body up from the quarry and told him he had killed her in the car. It seems like he doesn't say he saw the murder until after a few hours of questioning and being told "its okay" etc.
Also the new Jodi allegations are pretty damning.
Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure if I believe Avery is innocent. But I do believe Dassey is (and if he was involved, he was coerced, IMO). In either case, new trials for both should be considered.
I believe he was there and that he helped. With getting rid of the evidence and the body at least.
How do you propose that Avery and his mentally challenged cousin were able to so thoroughly clean any room or garage or any other surface of Teresa's blood or DNA? Also, after so thoroughly cleaning everything, does it make sense to you that they just left her car with Avery's blood stains in random places in the vehicle, and oh yeah dropped her car keys in his bedroom?
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