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governator
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:17 am Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

governator wrote:

Wonder if upper middle/upper level income Democrats might stay home/vote 3rd party if Bernie wins the primary due to fear of tax increases? Not sure how big but I think it will happen. At least Bernie has now essentially receives the most support nationally from Latinos and AA (via polls), his front runner is real. 3 of the 4 moderates need to drop out and form the anti-Bernie or 2020 ‘Hillary’ or we’re looking at trump v Bernie, I’m scared Bernie might lose to trump

The wealthy deserve to have their taxes increased. Our tax system has been upside down for quite some time.

Regarding moderates dropping out...This is the same argument people made on the Republican side when Trump won and apparently it’s not how it works. People end up rallying behind a winner. Trump had a defining moment in his campaign where he started outlining specific policies about immigration which got more traditional Republicans to come around. Bernie still needs a similar moment for the traditional Dems to show that he has some concrete plans that can get passed.

Trump ran against a (sadly) historically unpopular candidate and lost the popular vote by 3 million. He's consistently been the most unpopular president since they've been polling approval ratings.

Maybe don't compare your guy to Trump.

I’m talking about when he was in the primaries, not the general election.

As others have pointed out, there are many similarities between Sanders and Trump. Both considered party outsiders. Both are considered populists. Both extremely disliked by the more traditional party voters. You are sticking your head in the sand if you don’t look at how Trump won the party nomination under very similar circumstances and try to learn from that.

He still does not have this locked up at all. There is still a strong liklihood that we will go into a brokered convention, so now he has to figure out how to get the centrists to hold their nose and go along with it.

You're him at LG, let's see if you can convince other posters, it's a good barometer

Surfitall
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:22 am Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:

vanexelent wrote:

governator wrote:

DaMuleRules wrote:

governator wrote:

Bernie gonna pick Hilary as VP and shock the world

Bernie is the first candidate from either party in history to win the popular vote in the first 3 primaries

I'm sure you're joking, but on the outside chance you aren't.

No way Bernie does that.

No way Hilary accepts that.

DMR, of course I was joking but actually Bernie might have to pick a straight up moderate Democrat on the VP ticket, there might be anti-Bernie who’s scared of taxes Democrats who’d need a little ‘insurance’

You know who is a moderate and who would absolutely trigger Republicans as a VP pick? Adam Schiff.

I’d be on board with that, but I don’t think Bernie would be. If I were to bet on it, I’d put money on him picking Warren.

He wants more diversity, and someone who will carry on and support his progressive ideas if he doesn’t win.

You know who would actually be an interesting choice: Andrew Yang...don’t know why I didn’t think of this sooner, since I was really rooting for him to gain more traction. Widely liked, even by some Republicans, smart, reasonable, forward looking. Not sure of his ability to handle debates that aren’t centered around his UBI talk track though.

Surfitall
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:29 am Post subject:

governator wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

governator wrote:

You're him at LG, let's see if you can convince other posters, it's a good barometer

Hah! I have no such power here. But I would love for Bernie to have a defining moment that would enable him to bring the party together. He’s in a unique position because the hate for Trump May do that job for him no matter what happens, but still.

Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:34 am Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:

kikanga wrote:

This is why I wanted Warren for President 2020. And this is why I think Bernie will be our next nominee.

https://imgur.com/a/b2B6Wr1

Yes, exactly right. By the way, I just read that USC is now offering free tuition to families that make less than $80,000 per year. Right now private college administrations must be experiences a little nervousness with the thought that they could be competing against free colleges in the near future.

Harvard has been doing that for over a decade.
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Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:35 am Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

governator wrote:

Do GOP primaries have proportional delegate allotment or no?
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governator
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:52 am Post subject:

By the way (I don't agree with his plans) Bernie Nevada victory speech was fire, it was like listening a general riled up his troops for battle

Surfitall
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:53 am Post subject:

governator wrote:

By the way (I don't agree with his plans) Bernie Nevada victory speech was fire, it was like listening a general riled up his troops for battle

Which plans? And why not?

Last edited by Surfitall on Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total

Surfitall
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:58 am Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

governator wrote:

Do GOP primaries have proportional delegate allotment or no?

Republicans let the states choose whether they want proportional, or winner take all.

governator
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:05 am Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:

governator wrote:

By the way (I don't agree with his plans) Bernie Nevada victory speech was fire, it was like listening a general riled up his troops for battle

Which plans?

free college, I'd rather have low cost college that covers the cost of colleges but makes no profit

M4A ethically is right but it might hurt my career

(just read this, not really a deal breaker but not a fan) restricting charter school (my son is enrolling in a good charter school which is better in all metrix to the public school of my disctric)

wall street tax I think will include taxing everybody's 401K (maybe he can put a limit of under certain $ per year, no new tax)

I think Sanders tax increase will be substantial

ribeye
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:15 am Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

ribeye wrote:

From the Jimmy Carter thread:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Overmatched president, but wonderful American.

How so?

He inherited a country in serious trouble, had a whole lot of bad luck not of his making, and lacked the coherent vision to tackle them despite having solid majorities in both chambers of the House when he took over. He jumpstarted deregulation, was mostly an anti-union guy, he quashed Kennedy's more expansive healthcare proposals because he wanted to balance the budget, and the whole shah thing that led to the hostage crisis was a sign of his weak leadership. He was progressive on human rights and basically conservative economically and he inspired no one.

Vision? I think Jimmy C was more visionary than nearly all of our presidents.

Carter was definitely a moderate Democrat, likely the most conservative we've had, but this was where the country was in those years, as is evidenced by three terms of Republicans following. Deregulation, per se, such as with trucking, the airlines industry, or craft brewing, is not necessarily a bad concept. I mean it depends on what is being deregulated, and how, and what are the consequences--it is not like deregulating industries only to further profits at the expense of the environment, workers or consumers, as is the Republican model. I like craft beer, but I'm not alone, so what Carter did, a huge move to create this $30B industry, was visionary. But yes, unions were a consequence of some of the deregulation of transportation, but I don't think he was anti-union, per se.

His vision regarding the environment, the single greatest issue we face, was far ahead of his time. That alone is significant. His vision to arm the Mujahideen to fight the Soviet Union was costly to the Soviets and is one of the many policies that led to the fall of the Soviet Union. (It is funny how two of Reagan's "accomplishments" really began with Carter but he is the hero where Carter is the villain.) He did not create the Shah problem, his predecessors did. Still, the Shah had been a friend, and rather abandon him as did Trump with the Kurds, he allowed him to enter the US. This was a lose/lose situation. That Iran went ballistic because we took in the guy we put back in power--a symptom of our policy helping despotic and horrible leaders subjugate, kill and imprison their own citizens--is on Iran, as well as our post war foreign policy.

Yes, he was concerned about our debt, as should be all Americans. As such, he was the last president to see the debt/GDP decline in each of his years. And yes, this is another issue that is still out there that we just ignore, but will come to haunt us one day.

At least you didn't mention the effects of the oil crisis, usually at the top of most lists. This was a multifaceted issue, and actually two separate crises, in 1973 and 1979. Only the latter was criticized, when Carter was the president, since that is how Republicans work. This one was due largely to the Iranian Revolution, and that whole Shah issue.

Trump inspires. He inspires some 40+ percent. They now know that displaying our baser qualities or that ignoring tradition or the constitution is now perfectly fine. So much for inspiration.

That no one was inspired by Jimmy C can be considered a fault of his, if one needs to find someone to blame, but it is more a fault of the American people. People, all these years later and with what has occurred and is occurring, still are not inspired to do the work and elect leaders to try to mitigate the forthcoming disaster.

Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:44 am Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

governator wrote:

Do GOP primaries have proportional delegate allotment or no?

Republicans let the states choose whether they want proportional, or winner take all.

So would you then say that Trump won under different circumstances because the Democratic primary has no winner take all states while the 2016 GOP primary had eight winner take all states including large delegate states like New Jersey, Ohio, and Florida?

And would you say that Trump with zero experience in public office was actually an outsider versus Sanders who built his career through public service and has spent the last 30 years in Washington, D.C. as an independent who consistently aligns with Democrats on key issues like the passage of the ACA?

It's weird to me how you have some Sanders supporters in here who scold that comparing Trump to Bernie is bad and makes undecided voters flock to Bernie while others want to point to their similar profile as candidates. We need folks to get on message.
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Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:50 am Post subject:

Bernie should name Ivanka Trump as his VP, thus ensuring the white working class vote. _________________ Under New Management

Surfitall
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:53 am Post subject:

governator wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

governator wrote:

By the way (I don't agree with his plans) Bernie Nevada victory speech was fire, it was like listening a general riled up his troops for battle

Which plans?

I’d be ok with low cost public college, but I think basing it on their costs would find us right back where we started.

I appreciate your nervousness and candor about M4A.

My son is also in a charter school, similar deal.

Regarding taxes, I haven’t seen anything from him about raising taxes on 401k’s, in fact he has a pretty long history of fighting for legislation that would protect or enhance retirement income. There is no question, however that taxes would go up to pay for M4A which would be cancelled out en masse by the elimination of deductibles, copays, and insurance premiums.

I do know he’s for an extreme wealth tax. From his site:

Establish an annual tax on the extreme wealth of the top 0.1 percent of U.S. households. Only apply to net worth of over $32 million and anyone who has a net worth of less than $32 million, would not see their taxes go up at all under this plan.

Will raise an estimated $4.35 trillion over the next decade and cut the wealth of billionaires in half over 15 years, which would substantially break up the concentration of wealth and power of this small privileged class. Ensure that the wealthy are not able to evade the tax by implementing strong enforcement policies.

ribeye
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:57 am Post subject:

What about Stacey Abrams as a VP choice, if she is interested? I know there was talk of her with Biden, but she doesn't vacate a seat, is young and progressive, well spoken, and marks some of the boxes that others want.

Surfitall
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:10 am Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

governator wrote:

Do GOP primaries have proportional delegate allotment or no?

Republicans let the states choose whether they want proportional, or winner take all.

You seem to think Bernie supporters are some monolithic group that speaks in one voice. I find that weird. I agree with 70 to 80 percent of what Bernie is for. I’m not a spokesman for his campaign, I don’t agree with everything he says or does, I’m just an ordinary guy and Laker fan like everyone else in here.

I’ll concede your point that Trump won under different circumstances because the Republican and Democratic primaries are held under differing rules. And sure, Trump is an outsider, for all the reasons you state. Bernie is politically experienced, but is an outsider in that many in the Democratic Party refuse to accept him as one of their own since he essentially has been an Independent throughout his career. I’m sure you’ve seen people in this forum say that repeatedly.

BVH, who have you been rooting for in this election? Who do you think is the best choice?

jodeke
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:37 am Post subject:

WOW. Some are already picking a VP for Bernie! _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

governator
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:38 am Post subject:

jodeke wrote:

WOW. Some are already picking a VP for Bernie!

gotta keep up Jo!!!

still on Biden's train (I am)?

Surfitall
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:47 am Post subject:

jodeke wrote:

WOW. Some are already picking a VP for Bernie!

Yeah...seems a bit premature. He def has the momentum now though. Here is 538’s analysis as of last night.

https://tinyurl.com/vclv5zo

jodeke
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:53 am Post subject:

governator wrote:

jodeke wrote:

WOW. Some are already picking a VP for Bernie!

gotta keep up Jo!!!

still on Biden's train (I am)?

Note the bold green. I'ma ride the train till the wheels fall off.
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Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.

DaMuleRules
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:01 am Post subject:

People have been talking possible VP picks for various candidates ever since the field started to assemble. I don't see anything premature about that, especially as the field has narrowed. With Bernie having an unprecedented run in these first three primary events, he is undeniably the frontrunner and his advantage in considerable. It is perfectly logical and reasonable to be looking forward with the "what ifs" to what is ahead. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow And everything you built that’s all for show goes up in flames In 24 frames Jason Isbell Man, do those lyrics resonate right now

Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:03 am Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Surfitall wrote:

governator wrote:

Do GOP primaries have proportional delegate allotment or no?

Republicans let the states choose whether they want proportional, or winner take all.

I've been rooting for Warren since I think she would be the most effective president in ways that align with the America I'd like to see. Sanders is my second choice, but I would question his effectiveness as president starting with being the oldest first term president in U.S. history (if he wins) by nine years. I think Biden would be the best choice because of the potential boost to down ballot Dems in swing districts and in retaking the Senate (I'm worried about his age, too).

I'm deeply skeptical of Sanders supporters who see him as the beginning of a durable movement and seem more focused on dismantling the DNC than taking on the RNC. You have campaign surrogate Susan Sarandon moronically calling for Pelosi to be primaried for crying out loud. Once the immediate existential threat of Trump is gone, I'm concerned about a fractured party that will get swing district Dems killed if not this year then in 2022, which will make Sanders' legislative agenda even more impossible to achieve. Jane Sanders is already attacking Hickenlooper, and Sanders seems like poison for Mark Kelly and Doug Jones. And I don't see the infrastructure in place or the momentum yet to turn out new voters who aren't his young base in areas that aren't already quite blue - certainly not in the droves needed to reshape the electoral map in such a short period of time.

And as I've written here before, the GOP has followed in lockstep with Trump and his base in large part because under the horrible surface, he's mostly gone along with GOP policy priorities like gutting the federal government, pumping up military spending, passing tax cuts and dismantling the social safety net, and ultimately doing nothing except ramp up the U.S.'s assault on the Middle East. Trump uses his base to go after the GOP non-believers who dared think about standing in the way of his rampant kleptocracy and those folks are gone. Some Sanders supporters seem to think them protesting in front of Joe Manchin's DC office will somehow get him to vote for the Green New Deal. Heck, Sanders himself suggested that mass protests in Kentucky will get McConnell to go along with his policy agenda in the Senate. I assume he was joking, because if not...

Anyway, we'll see. I have no energy to phone bank or canvas for Sanders. My donations would be better spent on down ballot races. I have no interest in his movement or the cosplay socialists who see him as a stepping stone to their ideological agenda. It looks like they'll get their guy. Good for them. He has my vote. I hope he doesn't (bleep) it up.
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Baron Von Humongous
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:14 am Post subject:

Also, the idea of four more years of crazy rallies with Sanders yelling about Steny Hoyer to his throng of acolytes sounds exhausting. _________________ Under New Management

PHILosophize
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:17 am Post subject:

same question I posed before: is a vote for klobuchar a waste at this point? seems to me like voting for anyone other than biden or bernie is likely a waste _________________ one dog goes that way the other dog goes the other way

governator
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:22 am Post subject:

PHILosophize wrote:

same question I posed before: is a vote for klobuchar a waste at this point? seems to me like voting for anyone other than biden or bernie is likely a waste

One of Biden/Pete/Amy and even Bloomberg need to emerge as the 2nd frontrunner before super tuesday

governator
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Posted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:23 am Post subject:

BTW: MIT all courses textbook https://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

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