Defending Champs 2021 LA Dodgers Thread
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
loslakersss
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Posts: 10636
Location: LA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:01 am    Post subject:

I’d say more hopeful than anything, as long as the dodgers continue to protect their players as much as they’ve shown since the new ownership and leadership.

I didn’t realize DeGrom was already in his 30’s. I would also love to see Walker be similar both in performance as well as his team extending him before he hits free agency. He needs to be a dodger for life imo.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Cutheon
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 9597
Location: Bay Area

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:06 am    Post subject:

Verlander never dropped off. Not going to dive deep in numbers at the moment but if you check out the 2017 thread you’ll see it. And there’s good fa graphs posts. But basically his fastball was always there but his slider stopped sliding. Everyone stuck a fork in him. But he kept battling and figured it out while in Detroit. His numbers didn’t immediately bear it out but then in 2016 he exploded again. In ‘17 he continues his success, showing it wasn’t a mirage, and then went to Houston where a couple slight changes and a better defense resulted in supreme numbers. But as far as the peripherals were concerned JV’s decline was a slight downturn turned downfall via media narrative. He was a popular sabremetrics pick as a “comeback” player before he went to Hou. That’s why I was so annoyed when the Dodgers couldn’t get him - all signs pointed to Verlander being better than he ever was.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
MookieBetts50
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 22 Jul 2020
Posts: 516

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:20 am    Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:
Verlander never dropped off. Not going to dive deep in numbers at the moment but if you check out the 2017 thread you’ll see it. And there’s good fa graphs posts. But basically his fastball was always there but his slider stopped sliding. Everyone stuck a fork in him. But he kept battling and figured it out while in Detroit. His numbers didn’t immediately bear it out but then in 2016 he exploded again. In ‘17 he continues his success, showing it wasn’t a mirage, and then went to Houston where a couple slight changes and a better defense resulted in supreme numbers. But as far as the peripherals were concerned JV’s decline was a slight downturn turned downfall via media narrative. He was a popular sabremetrics pick as a “comeback” player before he went to Hou. That’s why I was so annoyed when the Dodgers couldn’t get him - all signs pointed to Verlander being better than he ever was.


And now Verlander is broken down and recovering from major surgery and hitting age 38, no thanks! Ironically this season's version was who we thought we were getting but at least he's got his health and still young enough to hold up a few more years.


Last edited by MookieBetts50 on Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Cutheon
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 9597
Location: Bay Area

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:22 am    Post subject:

We’d have won 2017 for sure. And maybe 18/19. And then not extend him. But sure, 3 years and 3 cy young quality seasons later his arm gave out. Good argument.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
1995Lakers
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:04 pm    Post subject:

2017 is a given if we had Verlander instead of that mentally weak Darvish. There were always murmurs of how soft Darvish really was even in Texas and I had seen it myself firsthand a while back even before Texas but at the time I dont blame Friedman for putting Darvish ahead of Verlander given mostly age. I have a hard time thinking we beat Boston in 2018 with just Verlander added but 2019 is a real possibility as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
1995Lakers
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:09 pm    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
I’d say more hopeful than anything, as long as the dodgers continue to protect their players as much as they’ve shown since the new ownership and leadership.

I didn’t realize DeGrom was already in his 30’s. I would also love to see Walker be similar both in performance as well as his team extending him before he hits free agency. He needs to be a dodger for life imo.


Considering he had TJ already at such a young age, Im not holding my breath and I would be very wary of extending a guy who relies so heavily on velo. I personally wouldnt extend him until the very last moment because he is a health risk and bombing on a long term contract is what sets back franchises for years. Lets also think about this objectively. Yes he is mentally tough...how mentally tough will he be though once he cant just shoot his fastball straight through and challenge hitters? That 98-99 mph becomes 94-95 mph, that difference can be the difference between a strikeout and us praising how great Buehler is and him getting smacked for a 3 run homerun and us claiming he needs to be traded. How great was Josh Beckett at one time and how quickly was he discarded by Boston when his fastball went from 97-98 mph to 92-94 mph.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DuncanIdaho
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 15256
Location: In a no-ship

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:58 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
^ do you think with most of these guys they may have been overused in their prime which shortened it/caused them to decline so rapidly after 30?


Like I said, I hope Buehler is like Scherzer and Randy Johnson. You sound confident that he’ll turn out like Scherzer and Randy Johnson. I hope you’re right.

You’re probably better at judging which pitchers will get hurt/decline and which will last a long time. I’m not really that good at judging. All I can do is look at the history.

Here’s a pitcher that’s trending in the opposite direction: Jacob deGrom.

Born: June 1988.

Since he’s turned 30, he’s won 2 Cy Youngs and almost won a 3rd this year. He’s gotten stronger and better after turning 30. Next year will be his age 33 season.

deGrom is a good example because his situation is/will be similar to Buehler’s.

Before 2019, entering his age 31 season, the Mets had control of him for 2 more years. He was set to become a free agent in 2021, his age 33 season. The Mets gave him a 5 yr $137.5M contract. $27.5M per year. What they did was replace his last 2 years of team control plus buy out his first 3 free agent years. Not bad. They’re on the hook until he’s 35. (They also have a club option for his age 36 season).

It’d be great if Buehler ages as well as deGrom and also takes a similar deal in 2 years.


deGrom is a great comparable. Thanks for bringing that up
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ChickenStu
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 22614
Location: Anaheim, CA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:36 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
I’d say more hopeful than anything, as long as the dodgers continue to protect their players as much as they’ve shown since the new ownership and leadership.

I didn’t realize DeGrom was already in his 30’s. I would also love to see Walker be similar both in performance as well as his team extending him before he hits free agency. He needs to be a dodger for life imo.


Considering he had TJ already at such a young age, Im not holding my breath and I would be very wary of extending a guy who relies so heavily on velo. I personally wouldnt extend him until the very last moment because he is a health risk and bombing on a long term contract is what sets back franchises for years. Lets also think about this objectively. Yes he is mentally tough...how mentally tough will he be though once he cant just shoot his fastball straight through and challenge hitters? That 98-99 mph becomes 94-95 mph, that difference can be the difference between a strikeout and us praising how great Buehler is and him getting smacked for a 3 run homerun and us claiming he needs to be traded. How great was Josh Beckett at one time and how quickly was he discarded by Boston when his fastball went from 97-98 mph to 92-94 mph.


He's a competitor, man. That's one of the reasons he's been so good in the postseason. Obviously, you'd rather have 99 than 94, but with his make-up, I think he'd still figure it out, even if he had to throw more sliders and the like.

I guess it's good that we still have so many years of team control left. We could opt to ride it out and then move on if we think he's too much of a risk beyond his early 30's. But I wouldn't mind a deal that buys out his arb years and a couple of free agent years.
_________________
THE JOB IS FINISHED!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
4stargeneralbulldog
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 26 Aug 2012
Posts: 735

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:39 am    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
2017 is a given if we had Verlander instead of that mentally weak Darvish. There were always murmurs of how soft Darvish really was even in Texas and I had seen it myself firsthand a while back even before Texas but at the time I dont blame Friedman for putting Darvish ahead of Verlander given mostly age. I have a hard time thinking we beat Boston in 2018 with just Verlander added but 2019 is a real possibility as well.


Darvish pitched really well in the 2017 postseason Dodgers, until facing the Astros. It's now documented that there were trashcans banging when he and Kershaw was pitching. Jomboy on Youtube documented this, you can hear the bang bang sounds indicating what pitch the Astros knew. That World Series was compromised, I don't hold anything against any pitcher that looked bad against the Astros during the 2017 postseason.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
oasisdude77
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 1859

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:55 am    Post subject:

4stargeneralbulldog wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
2017 is a given if we had Verlander instead of that mentally weak Darvish. There were always murmurs of how soft Darvish really was even in Texas and I had seen it myself firsthand a while back even before Texas but at the time I dont blame Friedman for putting Darvish ahead of Verlander given mostly age. I have a hard time thinking we beat Boston in 2018 with just Verlander added but 2019 is a real possibility as well.


Darvish pitched really well in the 2017 postseason Dodgers, until facing the Astros. It's now documented that there were trashcans banging when he and Kershaw was pitching. Jomboy on Youtube documented this, you can hear the bang bang sounds indicating what pitch the Astros knew. That World Series was compromised, I don't hold anything against any pitcher that looked bad against the Astros during the 2017 postseason.


Yep. Darvish was absolutely dealing in his LDS and LCS starts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
loslakersss
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Posts: 10636
Location: LA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject:

I remember at the time that we were debating if Darvish was the best #2 we had next to Kershaw, a lot of people thought he was better than Greinke was (until the Houston series).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
1995Lakers
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:32 am    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
I remember at the time that we were debating if Darvish was the best #2 we had next to Kershaw, a lot of people thought he was better than Greinke was (until the Houston series).


I would say he always threw a tad harder than even Greinke at his best and his pitch mix repertoire was as extensive as Zack's. But a comparison between these two, I go with Greinke because of command. Greinke's command was Kershaw's level if not even a slight tad higher. With Greinke at his best, I thought I was watching a harder throwing Maddux reborn. With Kershaw and Greinke reaching their peaks together I thought I was watching our version of Koufax and Drysdale and throw in Hyun Jin Ryu as our Claude Osteen as the perfect #3
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ChickenStu
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 22614
Location: Anaheim, CA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:41 am    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
I remember at the time that we were debating if Darvish was the best #2 we had next to Kershaw, a lot of people thought he was better than Greinke was (until the Houston series).


I would say he always threw a tad harder than even Greinke at his best and his pitch mix repertoire was as extensive as Zack's. But a comparison between these two, I go with Greinke because of command. Greinke's command was Kershaw's level if not even a slight tad higher. With Greinke at his best, I thought I was watching a harder throwing Maddux reborn. With Kershaw and Greinke reaching their peaks together I thought I was watching our version of Koufax and Drysdale and throw in Hyun Jin Ryu as our Claude Osteen as the perfect #3


Yeah, Greinke is the closest thing to Maddux the league has seen. Just reminds me so much of him. Even now, this 86-88 MPH version of Greinke reminds me of the final chapter of Maddux's career.
_________________
THE JOB IS FINISHED!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
4stargeneralbulldog
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 26 Aug 2012
Posts: 735

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:39 pm    Post subject:

oasisdude77 wrote:
4stargeneralbulldog wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
2017 is a given if we had Verlander instead of that mentally weak Darvish. There were always murmurs of how soft Darvish really was even in Texas and I had seen it myself firsthand a while back even before Texas but at the time I dont blame Friedman for putting Darvish ahead of Verlander given mostly age. I have a hard time thinking we beat Boston in 2018 with just Verlander added but 2019 is a real possibility as well.


Darvish pitched really well in the 2017 postseason Dodgers, until facing the Astros. It's now documented that there were trashcans banging when he and Kershaw was pitching. Jomboy on Youtube documented this, you can hear the bang bang sounds indicating what pitch the Astros knew. That World Series was compromised, I don't hold anything against any pitcher that looked bad against the Astros during the 2017 postseason.


Yep. Darvish was absolutely dealing in his LDS and LCS starts.


He looked really good in the 2017 postseason until the WS. So, I never did count it against him for what happened in the WS.

As for Verlander being this stud and getting it turned around in Houston. Sorry, any hitter or even pitcher from that organization, I would consider the numbers they put up as fool's gold, now knowing what we know about the elaborate cheating system. Whose to say that the pitchers didn't have some system or used the state of the art PEDs that can't be detected? Like it or not, once you cheat and get caught, you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Just heard Verlander got TJ surgery, can't say I feel bad for him. At his age and getting TJ surgery, his career should be over. Good, the scumbag was making jokes about the cheating incident.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DuncanIdaho
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 15256
Location: In a no-ship

PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:51 am    Post subject:

4stargeneralbulldog wrote:
oasisdude77 wrote:
4stargeneralbulldog wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
2017 is a given if we had Verlander instead of that mentally weak Darvish. There were always murmurs of how soft Darvish really was even in Texas and I had seen it myself firsthand a while back even before Texas but at the time I dont blame Friedman for putting Darvish ahead of Verlander given mostly age. I have a hard time thinking we beat Boston in 2018 with just Verlander added but 2019 is a real possibility as well.


Darvish pitched really well in the 2017 postseason Dodgers, until facing the Astros. It's now documented that there were trashcans banging when he and Kershaw was pitching. Jomboy on Youtube documented this, you can hear the bang bang sounds indicating what pitch the Astros knew. That World Series was compromised, I don't hold anything against any pitcher that looked bad against the Astros during the 2017 postseason.


Yep. Darvish was absolutely dealing in his LDS and LCS starts.


He looked really good in the 2017 postseason until the WS. So, I never did count it against him for what happened in the WS.

As for Verlander being this stud and getting it turned around in Houston. Sorry, any hitter or even pitcher from that organization, I would consider the numbers they put up as fool's gold, now knowing what we know about the elaborate cheating system. Whose to say that the pitchers didn't have some system or used the state of the art PEDs that can't be detected? Like it or not, once you cheat and get caught, you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Just heard Verlander got TJ surgery, can't say I feel bad for him. At his age and getting TJ surgery, his career should be over. Good, the scumbag was making jokes about the cheating incident.


Didn't Bauer basically say everyone on that pitching staff was cheating with pine tar? Their spin rates went through the roof all at the same time... funny how Verlander's slider suddenly started working again.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
loslakersss
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Posts: 10636
Location: LA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:12 pm    Post subject:

^i wouldn’t be surprised considering the lengths they went through to help their hitters; a little bit of pine tar is nothing compared to cameras and a relay system. I don’t think we will ever know unless a pitcher admits it because the league definitely wants to sweep anything like that under the rug/hide it from becoming public and hurting their image. The funny thing is that if they were more transparent and consistent with punishing wrongdoers they would improve their image drastically.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
1995Lakers
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 26 Aug 2020
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:46 am    Post subject:

Arenado being a Dodger now is more likely than not. Last time we had a significant deal with the Rockies, it was 23 years ago when we reacquired EY for Pedro Astacio. Unless you want to include the Hollandsworth for Goodwin waste of time. Wow. JT not being a Dodger is becoming ever closer....

https://roxpile.com/2020/11/20/colorado-rockies-rumors-nolan-arenado-trade-los-angeles-dodgers/

Looked at his career stats at Dodger stadium and just one look at him and you know the power is going to carry over and it does. The night games wont kill him.


Last edited by 1995Lakers on Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:50 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ChickenStu
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 22614
Location: Anaheim, CA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:50 am    Post subject:

More smoke about Arenado to the Dodgers. With the full no-trade, he can force his way here if he absolutely wants to. Could increase our leverage in getting him. Perhaps Rios would be one of the players going back the other way (though Morosi doesn't mention him), and of course Lux would have to be on the table.

Still want Turner back, especially if they keep the DH for '21, as Buster Olney thinks they will. I suppose you could argue that Turner might prefer still playing the field, and that the Dodgers may not want to pay, say, $12-15MM a year for a strict DH, but if you ask me, Turner has earned it.

Morosi also mentions that acquiring Arenado could mean the Dodgers don't see themselves retaining Seager long-term; he says that they have not made progress with Boras on extension talks for Seager.

https://www.mlb.com/news/nolan-arenado-dodgers-possibilities
_________________
THE JOB IS FINISHED!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Cutheon
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 9597
Location: Bay Area

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:14 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
Arenado being a Dodger now is more likely than not. Last time we had a significant deal with the Rockies, it was 23 years ago when we reacquired EY for Pedro Astacio. Unless you want to include the Hollandsworth for Goodwin waste of time. Wow. JT not being a Dodger is becoming ever closer....

https://roxpile.com/2020/11/20/colorado-rockies-rumors-nolan-arenado-trade-los-angeles-dodgers/

Looked at his career stats at Dodger stadium and just one look at him and you know the power is going to carry over and it does. The night games wont kill him.


Arenado's splits are interesting. Excluding small sample size stadiums, he posts pedestrian (relative to him) numbers at DS, but he's also faced our top flight pitching staff for his whole career. Otherwise his splits aren't as drastic as some other Colorado batsmen.

Would obviously be fine with Nolan. But we can't lose Seager - he's too special. (bleep) Boras
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
4stargeneralbulldog
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 26 Aug 2012
Posts: 735

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:43 pm    Post subject:

I'd rather we have JT back at 12-15 million per year on something like a 2 year deal. Arenado has too many years and too much money on his contract. I'd rather we use that money on homegrown talents like Buehler, Urias, Seager, Belly, when the time comes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
loslakersss
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Posts: 10636
Location: LA

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:40 pm    Post subject:

I’d rather pass on Nolan if it’s gonna cost us one of our young stars later on.

I did see something that DH might actually continue for NL this season so that could help with re-signing JT.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LongBeachPoly
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 7497

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:35 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Former MLB general manager Jim Bowden declared Friday that the Rockies will soon trade slugging third baseman Nolan Arenado to the division rival Los Angeles Dodgers. That means seeing him 18 times per year during a normal 162-game regular season.

“Nolan Arenado will be a Dodger by Christmas,” Bowden said on MLB Network Radio on SiriusXM. “I spoke with the Dodgers and they are obsessed with getting a right-handed bat, preferably a third baseman. They have been engaged with [general manager] Jeff Bridich of the Rockies.

“Arenado is planning on opting out of his contract with the Rockies in a year, [shortstop] Trevor Story is a free agent in a year, and the Rockies have serious financial issues after the pandemic. The trade talks between the Rockies and Dodgers are real. I think it’s going to happen.”


Quote:
“I don’t think the Dodgers have a lot of competition in trading for Arenado because of the contract and the opt-out,” Bowden said. “I believe the deal will be contingent on Arenado eradicating the opt-out and agreeing to stay with the Dodgers on the contract he agreed upon with no opt out. This is going to be a major storyline.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
4stargeneralbulldog
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 26 Aug 2012
Posts: 735

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:10 am    Post subject:

Just took a look at Arenado splits. He's a career .263 hitter away from Coors Field. Eh, that's a hard no from me, he also had a .227 Batting average away from Coors this year, it might be a small sample size this season, but I'm worried when taking a look at that. He also has 6 years left on that enormous contract. Also, the Dodgers consistently have 1 of the best farm system, the Rockies would want our best prospects and more than likely young guys that have made it to the majors like May, Gonsolin, Lux, etc.

When you assess everything, the trade isn't worth it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Snipes
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 4262

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:01 pm    Post subject:

Getting Nolan means we let Seager walk right? No way we keep both?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LongBeachPoly
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 7497

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:58 pm    Post subject:

4stargeneralbulldog wrote:
Just took a look at Arenado splits. He's a career .263 hitter away from Coors Field. Eh, that's a hard no from me, he also had a .227 Batting average away from Coors this year, it might be a small sample size this season, but I'm worried when taking a look at that. He also has 6 years left on that enormous contract. Also, the Dodgers consistently have 1 of the best farm system, the Rockies would want our best prospects and more than likely young guys that have made it to the majors like May, Gonsolin, Lux, etc.

When you assess everything, the trade isn't worth it.


Yeah I don’t like his splits either.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 6 of 8
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB