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trmiv
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:01 pm    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
I wonder if someone stole a bunch of property from his neighbors, would Strong9 advocate that instead of returning the property to the owners and punishing the thief, he/she thinks the judicial system should let the thief keep the goods and should have the neighbors work with him on ideas for how they can cooperate on rules that keep neighbors from stealing form each other?


Without turning this into something ugly, I have Palestinian family members so you decide how I'd answer that.

Edit: to be clear my point is I have to live in reality and do what I can to achieve the best result for all, don't I?


Well you just figured out the problem: Republicans have shown zero interest in achieving the best result for all. they’ve actively worked against it.


Last edited by trmiv on Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:02 pm    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
I wonder if someone stole a bunch of property from his neighbors, would Strong9 advocate that instead of returning the property to the owners and punishing the thief, he/she thinks the judicial system should let the thief keep the goods and should have the neighbors work with him on ideas for how they can cooperate on rules that keep neighbors from stealing form each other?


Without turning this into something ugly, I have Palestinian family members so you decide how I'd answer that.

Edit: to be clear my point is I have to live in reality and do what I can to achieve the best result for all, don't I?


My point is you are transmogrifying reality into some polite society that just doesn't exist. You're expecting to win a fistfight by tying one party's hands and asking them to nicely ask the other party to stop hitting them.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:15 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
strong9 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
I wonder if someone stole a bunch of property from his neighbors, would Strong9 advocate that instead of returning the property to the owners and punishing the thief, he/she thinks the judicial system should let the thief keep the goods and should have the neighbors work with him on ideas for how they can cooperate on rules that keep neighbors from stealing form each other?


Without turning this into something ugly, I have Palestinian family members so you decide how I'd answer that.

Edit: to be clear my point is I have to live in reality and do what I can to achieve the best result for all, don't I?


My point is you are transmogrifying reality into some polite society that just doesn't exist. You're expecting to win a fistfight by tying one party's hands and asking them to nicely ask the other party to stop hitting them.


And to that I say when did I disagree? Seriously, show me where I have said no to pre-existing condition protection, or affordable healthcare for all? Or rights for minorities. All of those impact many of us at home. But those are not extreme left policies.

I think CL had it right. She asked me to show her where Pelosi and Schumer are taking extreme positions. I don't see that they are. I merely said that in this reactionary environment, I fear they will capitulate to the extreme left to obtain the votes they need to pass things within 2 year and with a 1-term preaident, he won't be as willing to stand up to his own party on these points in the hopes of achieving things before his term is up. I don't want that because it perpetuates the status quo. I also said you can achieve all that while still seeking cooperation across the aisle. Up to Repubs if they play ball but at least you don't sink to their level.

I merely proposed why checks and balances are better and maybe better for the long term health of the country than a back and forth process. I take the point that there is alot to be undone and therefore, most fellow Dems are unwilling to take the high road at this point. Fair enough. Let's end it right there.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:24 pm    Post subject:

Giving one party the ability to check the other party at a time when that party has and is wrecking the country when the time comes for the other party to clean that up is not any rational idea whatsoever. It is not a balance. Any more than a wolf and a sheep cooperating on what to have for dinner.
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:28 pm    Post subject:

sums up the parties currently

https://imgur.com/gallery/lr3S4WV
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject:

FWIW, i believe Biden SHOULD reach out to Republicans and SHOULD find areas where they can work together if possible. But currently, that can only be done when in the majority in both the house and senate, because the Republicans have proven that if they hold any of the them or the presidency, they will not work with Democrats on anything beyond their own needs and wants. There is no balance in sharing power with a party who is deliberately trying to avoid sharing power.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:32 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Giving one party the ability to check the other party at a time when that party has and is wrecking the country when the time comes for the other party to clean that up is not any rational idea whatsoever. It is not a balance. Any more than a wolf and a sheep cooperating on what to have for dinner.


Fair enough. What I am saying is more nuanced than this but I don't want to belabor this any longerq since it triggers so many people. I should probably get back to work. Lol. Thanks all.1
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:33 pm    Post subject:

Only one party has morphed into a death cult, and the members of said party who didn't willfully join the Hari Kari have been brainwashed by state T.V. to be ok with having a civil war, or at the very least have one set of rules that benefits them... to the detriment of the other political party.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:34 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
FWIW, i believe Biden SHOULD reach out to Republicans and SHOULD find areas where they can work together if possible. But currently, that can only be done when in the majority in both the house and senate, because the Republicans have proven that if they hold any of the them or the presidency, they will not work with Democrats on anything beyond their own needs and wants. There is no balance in sharing power with a party who is deliberately trying to avoid sharing power.


You keep dragging me back. I agree with all of the above.
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governator
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:34 pm    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
strong9 wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
I wonder if someone stole a bunch of property from his neighbors, would Strong9 advocate that instead of returning the property to the owners and punishing the thief, he/she thinks the judicial system should let the thief keep the goods and should have the neighbors work with him on ideas for how they can cooperate on rules that keep neighbors from stealing form each other?


Without turning this into something ugly, I have Palestinian family members so you decide how I'd answer that.

Edit: to be clear my point is I have to live in reality and do what I can to achieve the best result for all, don't I?


My point is you are transmogrifying reality into some polite society that just doesn't exist. You're expecting to win a fistfight by tying one party's hands and asking them to nicely ask the other party to stop hitting them.


And to that I say when did I disagree? Seriously, show me where I have said no to pre-existing condition protection, or affordable healthcare for all? Or rights for minorities. All of those impact many of us at home. But those are not extreme left policies.

I think CL had it right. She asked me to show her where Pelosi and Schumer are taking extreme positions. I don't see that they are. I merely said that in this reactionary environment, I fear they will capitulate to the extreme left to obtain the votes they need to pass things within 2 year and with a 1-term preaident, he won't be as willing to stand up to his own party on these points in the hopes of achieving things before his term is up. I don't want that because it perpetuates the status quo. I also said you can achieve all that while still seeking cooperation across the aisle. Up to Repubs if they play ball but at least you don't sink to their level.

I merely proposed why checks and balances are better and maybe better for the long term health of the country than a back and forth process. I take the point that there is alot to be undone and therefore, most fellow Dems are unwilling to take the high road at this point. Fair enough. Let's end it right there.


how do you take the high road and protect pre-existing condition at the same time?
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:35 pm    Post subject:

It's the difference between governing by should or is. There is all kinds of nuance to should, and a lot of great high minded idealism. But is is a very different environment.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:36 pm    Post subject:

Another example of "both sides" not being the same:

Quote:
Chip Franklin @chipfranklin

When 2 died of Ebola they said Obama should resign.

When 4 died in Benghazi they said Hillary should go to jail.

When 228k died from the Trump Virus, they said give him his 3rd Supreme Court pick, ignore the Russian bounties on the heads of our troops & give him 4 more years.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:39 pm    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:

I think CL had it right. She asked me to show her where Pelosi and Schumer are taking extreme positions. I don't see that they are. I merely said that in this reactionary environment, I fear they will capitulate to the extreme left to obtain the votes they need to pass things within 2 year and with a 1-term preaident, he won't be as willing to stand up to his own party on these points in the hopes of achieving things before his term is up. I don't want that because it perpetuates the status quo. I also said you can achieve all that while still seeking cooperation across the aisle. Up to Repubs if they play ball but at least you don't sink to their level.


Could you give an example of what you would consider "capitulate to the extreme left"? I think that would clarify things. Because right now Republicans do believe Pelosi and Schumer are taking extreme positions even though you don't.

Maybe what you consider extreme doesn't align with either party's description of the word?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject:

Please tell me what "conservative" principle would compel the government to want to reverse policy in order to facilitate the extinction of the grey wolf? And how can I not have "vitriol" toward people who would do this? And how is facilitating the extinction of a species not "radical?"

Trump administration yanks endangered species protection for wolves nationwide

Quote:
Trump administration officials on Thursday ended endangered species protection for gray wolves nationwide, rankling conservationists who contend wolves still are vulnerable — and raising the stakes in Colorado’s citizen-driven wolf reintroduction vote in next week’s election.

U.S. Interior Secretary David Bernhardt declared wolves recovered after more than 45 years under federal protection, and federal wildlife officials claimed wolves as an Endangered Species Act success along with the bald eagle.


Gaslighting, lying and hypocrisy:

Quote:
“Today’s action reflects the Trump Administration’s continued commitment to species conservation,” Bernhardt said in a statement before heading to Colorado to hunt elk.


They've earned my vitriol and then some.
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1995Lakers
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:06 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Another example of "both sides" not being the same:

Quote:
Chip Franklin @chipfranklin

When 2 died of Ebola they said Obama should resign.

When 4 died in Benghazi they said Hillary should go to jail.

When 228k died from the Trump Virus, they said give him his 3rd Supreme Court pick, ignore the Russian bounties on the heads of our troops & give him 4 more years.


The guy calls it a "Trump Virus." That is all I need to know about his bias. That is far more ridiculous than Trump calling it the "China Virus" considering where it came from and as terribly as Xi Jinping acted when he was first aware of the disease from Wuhan. Trump puts the blame on China and considering how the Chinese government tried to cover it up, Xi Jinping deserves much more scorn from Democrats than he gets. Trump on his end should have followed South Korea's protocol in terms of the seriousness Korea understood the disease to be and the contact tracing/quarantine measures instituted.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:15 pm    Post subject:

Imagine you had a deadly disease, and your current “doctor” wasn’t even a doctor, doesn’t believe in science, and told you to treat it with quack remedies, and you finally got sick enough that you decided to see an actual doctor. Now imagine that your spouse turns to you and says, “you should have your new doctor partner with the old one and only allow him to give you treatments that the other one approves of”.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:24 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Another example of "both sides" not being the same:

Quote:
Chip Franklin @chipfranklin

When 2 died of Ebola they said Obama should resign.

When 4 died in Benghazi they said Hillary should go to jail.

When 228k died from the Trump Virus, they said give him his 3rd Supreme Court pick, ignore the Russian bounties on the heads of our troops & give him 4 more years.


Brilliant.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:02 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Another example of "both sides" not being the same:

Quote:
Chip Franklin @chipfranklin

When 2 died of Ebola they said Obama should resign.

When 4 died in Benghazi they said Hillary should go to jail.

When 228k died from the Trump Virus, they said give him his 3rd Supreme Court pick, ignore the Russian bounties on the heads of our troops & give him 4 more years.


The guy calls it a "Trump Virus." That is all I need to know about his bias. That is far more ridiculous than Trump calling it the "China Virus" considering where it came from and as terribly as Xi Jinping acted when he was first aware of the disease from Wuhan. Trump puts the blame on China and considering how the Chinese government tried to cover it up, Xi Jinping deserves much more scorn from Democrats than he gets. Trump on his end should have followed South Korea's protocol in terms of the seriousness Korea understood the disease to be and the contact tracing/quarantine measures instituted.


How long does the virus have to be here before Trump is more responsible than China? We're going on 9 months of Trump's ongoing incompetence 224K deaths and now a third wave -- AND HE STILL HAS NO PLAN. At this point it actually is the Trump Virus. He's the president. If he wants to take credit when things go well, then he deserves the blame when things go horribly bad.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:04 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Another example of "both sides" not being the same:

Quote:
Chip Franklin @chipfranklin

When 2 died of Ebola they said Obama should resign.

When 4 died in Benghazi they said Hillary should go to jail.

When 228k died from the Trump Virus, they said give him his 3rd Supreme Court pick, ignore the Russian bounties on the heads of our troops & give him 4 more years.


The guy calls it a "Trump Virus." That is all I need to know about his bias. That is far more ridiculous than Trump calling it the "China Virus" considering where it came from and as terribly as Xi Jinping acted when he was first aware of the disease from Wuhan. Trump puts the blame on China and considering how the Chinese government tried to cover it up, Xi Jinping deserves much more scorn from Democrats than he gets. Trump on his end should have followed South Korea's protocol in terms of the seriousness Korea understood the disease to be and the contact tracing/quarantine measures instituted.


In the United States it basically is the Trump virus.

Regardless of where it originated, in the US the vast majority of the cases and deaths are due directly to Trump's actions and inactions.

Trump didn't create the virus, neither did Xi or anyone else by the way. But he surely has spread it throughout this nation and made it exponentially worse and not just through mistakes, he is actively trying to spread it now.

You think Xi should be blamed for what he did in China, well then Donald needs to be blamed for what he did here.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:08 pm    Post subject:

Can we compromise and just call it the MAGA/Karen virus?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:12 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Another example of "both sides" not being the same:

Quote:
Chip Franklin @chipfranklin

When 2 died of Ebola they said Obama should resign.

When 4 died in Benghazi they said Hillary should go to jail.

When 228k died from the Trump Virus, they said give him his 3rd Supreme Court pick, ignore the Russian bounties on the heads of our troops & give him 4 more years.


The guy calls it a "Trump Virus." That is all I need to know about his bias. That is far more ridiculous than Trump calling it the "China Virus" considering where it came from and as terribly as Xi Jinping acted when he was first aware of the disease from Wuhan. Trump puts the blame on China and considering how the Chinese government tried to cover it up, Xi Jinping deserves much more scorn from Democrats than he gets. Trump on his end should have followed South Korea's protocol in terms of the seriousness Korea understood the disease to be and the contact tracing/quarantine measures instituted.


How long does the virus have to be here before Trump is more responsible than China? We're going on 9 months of Trump's ongoing incompetence 224K deaths and now a third wave -- AND HE STILL HAS NO PLAN. At this point it actually is the Trump Virus. He's the president. If he wants to take credit when things go well, then he deserves the blame when things go horribly bad.


Yep, he wanted to claim credit for the "Trump economy" that he inherited from Obama but now he wants to blame China for a virus that is raging here on his watch.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:15 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Can we compromise and just call it the MAGA/Karen virus?


But Trump likes his name plastered all over things. It's branding.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:16 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Imagine you had a deadly disease, and your current “doctor” wasn’t even a doctor, doesn’t believe in science, and told you to treat it with quack remedies, and you finally got sick enough that you decided to see an actual doctor. Now imagine that your spouse turns to you and says, “you should have your new doctor partner with the old one and only allow him to give you treatments that the other one approves of”.


Come on Omar. That isn't an apt analogy. Republicans have different views on how to achieve certain things. Yes, a large percentage of them right now have succumbed to their greatest fears, but not all of the party's ideals are inherently wrong. They have forsaken some of their own ideals under the past two Republican administrations as well. In fact, there are Repub platform policies that moderate Democrats would agree with.

They are not some monolithic bogeyman either. There are still moderate Republicans out there, they have just been drowned out by a vociferous extreme that started with the Tea Party and eventually resulted with Trump. We've seen certain Republican walk away from office for that very reason. Once there is a change in admin and Congress, I would hope those chastened Repubs are more willing to work across the aisle. THEY are not quacks.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Another example of "both sides" not being the same:

Quote:
Chip Franklin @chipfranklin

When 2 died of Ebola they said Obama should resign.

When 4 died in Benghazi they said Hillary should go to jail.

When 228k died from the Trump Virus, they said give him his 3rd Supreme Court pick, ignore the Russian bounties on the heads of our troops & give him 4 more years.


The guy calls it a "Trump Virus." That is all I need to know about his bias. That is far more ridiculous than Trump calling it the "China Virus" considering where it came from and as terribly as Xi Jinping acted when he was first aware of the disease from Wuhan. Trump puts the blame on China and considering how the Chinese government tried to cover it up, Xi Jinping deserves much more scorn from Democrats than he gets. Trump on his end should have followed South Korea's protocol in terms of the seriousness Korea understood the disease to be and the contact tracing/quarantine measures instituted.


How long does the virus have to be here before Trump is more responsible than China? We're going on 9 months of Trump's ongoing incompetence 224K deaths and now a third wave -- AND HE STILL HAS NO PLAN. At this point it actually is the Trump Virus. He's the president. If he wants to take credit when things go well, then he deserves the blame when things go horribly bad.


Oh it is all on Trump. But we Americans could have done a better job too.
The kind of crap the Dodgers pulled at the end of the WS typifies why we are still bearing the brunt of the pandemic.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:27 pm    Post subject:

strong9 wrote:
They are not some monolithic bogeyman either. There are still moderate Republicans out there, they have just been drowned out by a vociferous extreme that started with the Tea Party and eventually resulted with Trump. We've seen certain Republican walk away from office for that very reason. Once there is a change in admin and Congress, I would hope those chastened Repubs are more willing to work across the aisle. THEY are not quacks.


Are you not aware that the 2 most obstructionist Congresses of all time occurred consecutively during Barack Obama's tenure?
https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/FT_19.01.23_CongressProductivity_bar.png

The Senate wouldn't even investigate Trump's impeachable offenses. Not 1 Republican even voted to allow the Senate to discuss the evidence.

Quote:
Their willingness to say no to everything — the fact that since 2007, they have filibustered about 500 pieces of legislation that would help the middle class just gives you a sense of how opposed they are to any progress — has actually led to an increase in cynicism and discouragement among the people who were counting on us to fight for them,” Obama said of Republicans.

https://www.politico.com/story/2014/05/republicans-legislation-obama-dccc-event-106481
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