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ChickenStu
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:46 pm    Post subject:

Osaka looked like she was about to go up 5-1 in the 3rd, couldn't break, and then gets broken after being up 40-15 on her own serve! Back on serve, 4-3 Osaka in the third. Wow.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:51 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Naomi Osaka just won her 3rd major.

Question: How many majors does it take to become a legend in women's tennis?

Is Venus Williams a legend? She has 7

Is Justine Henin a legend? She has 7 as well

Monica Seles has 9?

Martina Hingis and Sharapova have 5 apiece. Where's the cutoff? (I don't think Hingis and Sharapova qualify). I wonder how many more does Osaka need to be considered a legend in women's tennis.

There's no question about the top 7 legends:
1) Margaret Court (24)
2) Serena Williams (23)
3) Steffi Graf (22)
4) Helen Wills Moody (19)
5) Chris Evert (18)
6) Martina Navratilova (18)
7) Billy Jean King (12)

My opinion is the cutoff should be at Monica Seles at 9.


I think you have to take everything in context. To me Venus is a legend. She and Serena changed the game, and if not for her sister she wins a bunch more (she lost 7 Slam finals to Serena). Seles is definitely a legend; she was wiping the floor with Graf at the time of her stabbing, and I think most in the game consider her as possibly the cleanest ball-striker ever. She's kind of seen as an all-time great whose career was essentially cut short or forever changed by a freak incident. I don't think Sharapova is a legend, despite the career Grand Slam, and I can't consider Hingis as one. Henin I'm going to say no, despite having the same # of Slams as Venus, and she did make 12 Slam finals, so I get it if someone wants to argue yes for her. Venus was in four more finals (not to mention winning 14 major doubles titles with Serena, and they never lost a final) and was much more important to the history of the game imo. Henin had a really nice run for a few years, though, so that's a close one.


Yeah, I was also struggling with Venus. My reasons for cutting her was because she wasn't at the top for that long. I'd say her peak was 2000 to 2003, after that it was sporadic. After 2003, she only made one final in a major outside of Wimbledon (2017 Australian Open).

So basically, after 2003, she was strictly a Wimbledon player and a non-threat at the other 3 majors for the rest of her career.

She was born on June 17, 1980. So, in 2003, she turned 23. She peaked at 23 years old.

She won her last (non-Wimbledon) title at 21 years old (2001 US Open).
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:59 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Naomi Osaka just won her 3rd major.

Question: How many majors does it take to become a legend in women's tennis?

Is Venus Williams a legend? She has 7

Is Justine Henin a legend? She has 7 as well

Monica Seles has 9?

Martina Hingis and Sharapova have 5 apiece. Where's the cutoff? (I don't think Hingis and Sharapova qualify). I wonder how many more does Osaka need to be considered a legend in women's tennis.

There's no question about the top 7 legends:
1) Margaret Court (24)
2) Serena Williams (23)
3) Steffi Graf (22)
4) Helen Wills Moody (19)
5) Chris Evert (18)
6) Martina Navratilova (18)
7) Billy Jean King (12)

My opinion is the cutoff should be at Monica Seles at 9.


I think you have to take everything in context. To me Venus is a legend. She and Serena changed the game, and if not for her sister she wins a bunch more (she lost 7 Slam finals to Serena). Seles is definitely a legend; she was wiping the floor with Graf at the time of her stabbing, and I think most in the game consider her as possibly the cleanest ball-striker ever. She's kind of seen as an all-time great whose career was essentially cut short or forever changed by a freak incident. I don't think Sharapova is a legend, despite the career Grand Slam, and I can't consider Hingis as one. Henin I'm going to say no, despite having the same # of Slams as Venus, and she did make 12 Slam finals, so I get it if someone wants to argue yes for her. Venus was in four more finals (not to mention winning 14 major doubles titles with Serena, and they never lost a final) and was much more important to the history of the game imo. Henin had a really nice run for a few years, though, so that's a close one.


Yeah, I was also struggling with Venus. My reasons for cutting her was because she wasn't at the top for that long. I'd say her peak was 2000 to 2003, after that it was sporadic. After 2003, she only made one final in a major outside of Wimbledon.

So basically, after 2003, she was strictly a Wimbledon player and a non-threat at the other 3 majors for the rest of her career.
I have Venus as a legend, Seles as a legend. She might have ended up as the greatest ever with the most slams if not for the stabbing, if you look at the roll she was on. Like you say, no to Hingis, no to Sharapova. It's hard to be a legend in the Serena era, but I say no to Henin even though its borderline and I loved her style. If she had lasted longer at the same level, maybe. Osaka and Andreescu have chances if they stay healthy to get in the running for legend status.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:04 pm    Post subject:

^
The Seles thing was just so damn sad. She just couldn't recapture what she once had after the stabbing. I'm telling you, she was completely dominant. The only place where Graf even had a chance against her was Wimbledon, and Seles was starting to figure that out too, and I have no doubt that it would've been similar to Nadal finally overcoming Federer on the grass. She had mirror image groundstrokes and she was equally as strong off both sides, hit the ball so perfect off both wings, and was so consistent as well. If you look at what happened in the women's game for the next few years after the stabbing, and if you look at how many Slams Graf won after that, almost all of those would've been Seles wins imo.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:20 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
^
The Seles thing was just so damn sad. She just couldn't recapture what she once had after the stabbing. I'm telling you, she was completely dominant. The only place where Graf even had a chance against her was Wimbledon, and Seles was starting to figure that out too, and I have no doubt that it would've been similar to Nadal finally overcoming Federer on the grass. She had mirror image groundstrokes and she was equally as strong off both sides, hit the ball so perfect off both wings, and was so consistent as well. If you look at what happened in the women's game for the next few years after the stabbing, and if you look at how many Slams Graf won after that, almost all of those would've been Seles wins imo.
Totally agree. Looks at this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Seles#Singles_performance_timeline

She had just turned 19 the month before that last green 'W' at the 1993 Aussie. 7 of the last 9 prior to that and one wimbledon final. She was in Graf's head. She was going to mow down everyone for a few years, and I think would have won the calendar grand slam at least one year. She was 19 when she stopped. That's why I have it as more than Nadal finally overcoming Federer. It wouldn't have been switching back and forth. Graf would have only had a shot at Wimbledon, a good one though. But the main thing is how young Seles was when she racked all those Slams up. She would have had played age 19-25 at least. Six years to rack up Slams as she got more experience, more power, more physically there. Look at the 10 slams she missed after the stabbing. Even being conservative, based on winning 7 of 9 before, you could easily see her winning 5 of those 10. Instead, Graf won 7 of those 10. So that would have put her at 12 Slams...at age 21. So things really changed in the sport when she got stabbed. She was like Serena in relative power over opponents before Serena arrived.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:11 pm    Post subject:

^
Yep. And, again, not just the power tennis off both wings, she was so incredibly clean with the striking, not spraying the ball and making a bunch of errors, as Serena and Venus used to do (Serena cleaned much of that up after going to Patrick as her coach). She may not have had a dominant serve (very few did in that era among the women, if any), but she just controlled point after point with those dominant groundstrokes.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:59 am    Post subject:

Naomi Osaka with the Mamba jersey after winning the US Open

Interview snippet on Kobe
More on the Kobe inspiration
https://sports.yahoo.com/naomi-osaka-says-us-open-021006772.html
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:11 pm    Post subject:

Seems like a pretty lousy men's final. Nerves getting to these guys, tough to watch. Mistakes all over. Looks like it's going to a fifth set, so hope these guys pull it together for one set. As it stands, it just going to be the guy who lets the other guy implode better.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:14 pm    Post subject:

Zverev choke incoming
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:20 pm    Post subject:

Thiem takes it in a great comeback while hurting!
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:35 pm    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
Zverev choke incoming


Zverev treating Thiem like Federer treats Djokovic.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:13 pm    Post subject:

Zverev was in a giving mood so good for Thiem to take it. He fought through cramps, and his own crap play before that. It was a crap-off mostly. Thiem probably plays smoother in his next final. Zverev, man did he look shaky. 84 mph first serves lol. He'll be better next time too and he's got time. This one's going to hurt a lot though, mostly because he kicked himself out of so many chances in the fifth. His serve goes between dominant and complete disaster.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:56 pm    Post subject:

focus wrote:
Zverev was in a giving mood so good for Thiem to take it. He fought through cramps, and his own crap play before that. It was a crap-off mostly. Thiem probably plays smoother in his next final. Zverev, man did he look shaky. 84 mph first serves lol. He'll be better next time too and he's got time. This one's going to hurt a lot though, mostly because he kicked himself out of so many chances in the fifth. His serve goes between dominant and complete disaster.


I was at a sports bar watching football all day (outdoors with a mask, actually, with the TV's set up just inside where I could see them well), and was keeping track of the tennis scores on my phone but not actually watching the match. Until it got to 4-5 in the 5th set, and I asked the guy to put it on one TV, since the afternoon football games were over at that point or almost over. So I saw nothing before that. I was shocked at the tennis. Obviously, their quality was far, far better than anything I could ever produce, but I was still thinking to myself, hmm, these are the type of nerves and pushing you see in some of the tournaments I've played in. For most of the rallies, it just looked like both guys were playing not to lose. Thiem was just slicing his backhand in, which I've never seen him do, ever, not shot after shot after shot. He did seem like the braver guy at the end, at least, actually going for some forehands and he did come up with 2 amazing forehands when it was 30-30 on his own serve at 4-5. But that last Zverev 2nd serve at 5-6 in the breaker, the 68 MPH one I think, I know that serve! I could literally feel the nerves and the tension from the opposite coast of the United States. I've been there so many times, it's crazy. You feel like your arm is not working and you're exhausted and you're nervous and all you're thinking is "get this in somehow." You just don't see that from a male pro, though! Sure, they can hit double faults due to nerves, but you don't see them hit it quite like that. That had to be the most nervy 2nd serve that went in, on the men's tour, I've seen in years, maybe decades. And he won that point and still got it to 6-6!

It wasn't good tennis, but since you never, ever see that, I found it to be remarkably compelling.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:11 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
focus wrote:
Zverev was in a giving mood so good for Thiem to take it. He fought through cramps, and his own crap play before that. It was a crap-off mostly. Thiem probably plays smoother in his next final. Zverev, man did he look shaky. 84 mph first serves lol. He'll be better next time too and he's got time. This one's going to hurt a lot though, mostly because he kicked himself out of so many chances in the fifth. His serve goes between dominant and complete disaster.


I was at a sports bar watching football all day (outdoors with a mask, actually, with the TV's set up just inside where I could see them well), and was keeping track of the tennis scores on my phone but not actually watching the match. Until it got to 4-5 in the 5th set, and I asked the guy to put it on one TV, since the afternoon football games were over at that point or almost over. So I saw nothing before that. I was shocked at the tennis. Obviously, their quality was far, far better than anything I could ever produce, but I was still thinking to myself, hmm, these are the type of nerves and pushing you see in some of the tournaments I've played in. For most of the rallies, it just looked like both guys were playing not to lose. Thiem was just slicing his backhand in, which I've never seen him do, ever, not shot after shot after shot. He did seem like the braver guy at the end, at least, actually going for some forehands and he did come up with 2 amazing forehands when it was 30-30 on his own serve at 4-5. But that last Zverev 2nd serve at 5-6 in the breaker, the 68 MPH one I think, I know that serve! I could literally feel the nerves and the tension from the opposite coast of the United States. I've been there so many times, it's crazy. You feel like your arm is not working and you're exhausted and you're nervous and all you're thinking is "get this in somehow." You just don't see that from a male pro, though! Sure, they can hit double faults due to nerves, but you don't see them hit it quite like that. That had to be the most nervy 2nd serve that went in, on the men's tour, I've seen in years, maybe decades. And he won that point and still got it to 6-6!

It wasn't good tennis, but since you never, ever see that, I found it to be remarkably compelling.

Lol, I know that serve too, the legs buckling, the jelly arms, and the push non-serve (for me) into the net followed by much cursing. Your read on the match was the same as mine. I just checked in during each set, but it looked really bad each time I turned it on for Thiem, though Zverev looked good early. Then he looked pathetic in the fifth.

I felt bad for him, but this might be "a good loss" if he gets over it and mad about it. He should read up on us after we lost to Boston, and how we ruled the next two years.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:25 pm    Post subject:

^
For me, when I have been super tired on the court and you combine that with a nervous moment, I don't feel it in the legs, but it's all in the forearm. Like I have no control. And since i just sort of guide my 2nd serve in even under normal conditions, when you slow down your arm speed AND the arm feels like jello? It's liable to go literally anywhere. That's why sometimes, I just go for a big serve on the 2nd when I feel that way because at least my arm is speeding up so I don't necessarily feel the tension. Of course, it's a much riskier serve, but, then again, it's basically a risk with the jello arm anyway!
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