Interesting People/Lives Thread

 
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:13 pm    Post subject: Interesting People/Lives Thread

With so much free time on my hands nowadays, I find I spend a lot more on the computer and often do Wikipedia searches on people to read about their lives.

I was watching a B-52 documentary and they mentioned a guy named Chris Blackwell who produced some of their early stuff, and was quite amazed at his life (and he is still alive!):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Blackwell

Born in the UK, moved to Jamaica at an early age, sent back to the UK for school, parents divorced when he was 12, quit school and went back to Jamaica, shipwrecked at 21, had to swim to shore, nearly died, nursed back to health by Rastarfarians, started Island Records, selling records out of his car in the England, then became more and more successful, worked with all kinds of big name bands, etc. etc...

His mother dated Ian Fleming (James Bond writer). His net worth is listed as $180 million, not a bad life eh?

Have someone you'd like to point out? List below...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:24 pm    Post subject:

Lt. Jack Churchill of the British Army

Went into WWII combat with a bow, a broadsword, and bagpipes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:53 pm    Post subject:

Korla Pandit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korla_Pandit

Quote:
Korla Pandit (September 16, 1921 – October 1 or 2, 1998), born John Roland Redd, was an American musician, composer, pianist, organist, and television pioneer of national notability. After moving to California in the late 1940s and getting involved in show business, Redd became known as "Korla Pandit", a French-Indian musician from New Delhi, India. However, Redd was actually a light-skinned African-American man from Missouri who passed as Indian. A pathbreaking musical performer in the early days of television, Redd is known for Korla Pandit's Adventures In Music; the show was the first all-music program on television. He also performed live and on radio and made various film appearances, becoming known as the "Godfather of Exotica". Redd maintained the Korla Pandit persona—both in public and in private—until the end of his life.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:38 am    Post subject:

Alright, who remembers Green Acres?

Oliver (Screen Name: Eddie Albert - Real Name: Edward Albert Heimberger)

Lived a pretty full life in his 99 years!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Albert


His Military Service was sort of glossed over in wikipedia, but this contains much more details:

https://ss.sites.mtu.edu/mhugl/2016/10/16/eddie-albert-in-the-battle-of-tarawa/
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:01 am    Post subject:

C M B wrote:
Lt. Jack Churchill of the British Army

Went into WWII combat with a bow, a broadsword, and bagpipes.


(Listed in order of lethality, least to most.)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:15 pm    Post subject:

I was watching Casablanca (released in 1942) tonight and looked through the cast, and saw the man who played a Nazi German Major Strasser died in 1943, so I went and looked him up on Wikipedia...

Wow, very interesting life and his died while playing golf at the Riviera Country Club in LA...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_Veidt

and

https://www.german-way.com/notable-people/featured-bios/conrad-veidt/
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:59 am    Post subject:

I always thought Beryl Markham lived an interesting life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_Markham

English-born Kenyan aviatrix (one of the first bush pilots), adventurer, racehorse trainer and author.

When she was four years old (1906), she moved with her father to Kenya. Markham spent an adventurous childhood learning, playing, and hunting with the local children. Established herself as a horse trainer at the age of 17, after her father left for Peru. She trained racehorses in Kenya into her 80's.

She was the first person to fly solo, non-stop across the Atlantic from Britain to North America. She wrote about her adventures in her memoir, West with the Night. Hemingway highly praised her writing.

Thrice married, she had an affair with the son of King George V, also with Denys Finch Hatton. She was friends with Karen Blixin who wrote Out of Africa (who also had an affair with Finch Hatton).
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:47 am    Post subject:

SweetP wrote:
I always thought Beryl Markham lived an interesting life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_Markham

English-born Kenyan aviatrix (one of the first bush pilots), adventurer, racehorse trainer and author.

When she was four years old (1906), she moved with her father to Kenya. Markham spent an adventurous childhood learning, playing, and hunting with the local children. Established herself as a horse trainer at the age of 17, after her father left for Peru. She trained racehorses in Kenya into her 80's.

She was the first person to fly solo, non-stop across the Atlantic from Britain to North America. She wrote about her adventures in her memoir, West with the Night. Hemingway highly praised her writing.

Thrice married, she had an affair with the son of King George V, also with Denys Finch Hatton. She was friends with Karen Blixin who wrote Out of Africa (who also had an affair with Finch Hatton).


Very interesting, never heard of her previously, in the article it talks about her being involved with the "Happy Valley Set:, which I clicked on the link and OMG, now that was a wild group, check it out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Valley_set
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:13 pm    Post subject:

unleasHell wrote:
SweetP wrote:
I always thought Beryl Markham lived an interesting life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_Markham

English-born Kenyan aviatrix (one of the first bush pilots), adventurer, racehorse trainer and author.

When she was four years old (1906), she moved with her father to Kenya. Markham spent an adventurous childhood learning, playing, and hunting with the local children. Established herself as a horse trainer at the age of 17, after her father left for Peru. She trained racehorses in Kenya into her 80's.

She was the first person to fly solo, non-stop across the Atlantic from Britain to North America. She wrote about her adventures in her memoir, West with the Night. Hemingway highly praised her writing.

Thrice married, she had an affair with the son of King George V, also with Denys Finch Hatton. She was friends with Karen Blixin who wrote Out of Africa (who also had an affair with Finch Hatton).


Very interesting, never heard of her previously, in the article it talks about her being involved with the "Happy Valley Set:, which I clicked on the link and OMG, now that was a wild group, check it out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Valley_set


I read her memoir many years ago, it is well-written. She writes a very moving section about a little Massai boy she plays with growing up who brags he will soon be a man and have courage and a spear and a shield just like his father, a Massai warrior Beryl greatly admires. And a few years later the boy "gathers up his courage and his spear and his shield" and goes off to fight when asked by the English (I'm assuming in WWI) and never returns.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:56 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Hank Greenberg

Henry Benjamin Greenberg (born Hyman Greenberg; January 1, 1911 – September 4, 1986), nicknamed "Hammerin' Hank", "Hankus Pankus", or "The Hebrew Hammer", was an American professional baseball player and team executive. He played in Major League Baseball (MLB), primarily for the Detroit Tigers as a first baseman in the 1930s and 1940s. A member of the Baseball Hall of Fame and a two-time Most Valuable Player (MVP) Award winner, he was one of the premier power hitters of his generation and is widely considered as one of the greatest sluggers in baseball history.[1] He had 47 months of military service including service in World War II, all of which took place during what would have been prime years in his major league career.[2]

He was the AL home run leader four times and his 58 home runs for the Tigers in 1938 equaled Jimmie Foxx's 1932 mark for the most in one season by anyone other than Babe Ruth, and tied Foxx for the most home runs between Ruth's record 60 in 1927 and Roger Maris' record 61 in 1961.

Greenberg was the first Jewish superstar in American team sports.[4] He attracted national attention in 1934 in the middle of a pennant race when he had to decide whether to play baseball on two major Jewish holidays; after consultation with his rabbi, he agreed to play on Rosh Hashanah, but on Yom Kippur he spent the day at his synagogue, even though he was not particularly observant religiously. Having endured his share of anti-semitic abuse in his career, Greenberg was one of the few opposing players to publicly welcome African-American player Jackie Robinson to the major leagues in 1947.[5]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Greenberg
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:15 am    Post subject:

Ben Carson, the neurosurgeon part
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:50 am    Post subject:

Charlie Kalani, aka Professor Toru Tanaka

Hawaiian

blackbelt in Jiu Jitsu

Sergeant in US Army

Pro Wrassler

Invincible henchman in movies

http://www.danzan.com/HTML/PEOPLE/kalani.html
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:29 am    Post subject:

There is without question 1 person in Korean history who is recognized as the greatest Korean person who ever lived whose military greatness is on par with Alexander, Napolean and Sabutai and surpasses his Western peer (Horatio Nelson), Cao Cao from Romance of the Three Kingdoms era and even Julius Caesar and any American military hero than you can think of (McArthur, Patton, Lee, Grant, Eisenhower, literally no one in American history compares or is frankly even close to matching this guy's genius): Yi Sun Shin

This guy is literally Michael Jordan of the 80s taking his problem children Bulls (The deteriorating crap that was frankly the Joseon dynasty) and not only beating the 1986 Celtics (the Japanese Armada and nation finally unified under Toyotomi Hideyoshi) but utterly destroying and sweeping them and not 1 year but every single damn time. The legend is that you can give Yi farmers with 10 sticks and he will be able to figure out how to beat an army of 100 with well equipped weapons.

If this person was not alive, Korea would have 100%, not 99.9999%, lost the Imjin War and been part of the Japanese Empire under Toyotomi Hideyoshi meaning all Koreans today would be Japanese. Hideyoshi did not even consider Korea a threat but a little stepping step in the war to conquering his real prize: The Ming Empire of China.

If you read his military exploits and the odds he faced EVERY time in over 30 engagements while being undefeated AND suffering minimal casualties in all of them with the Battle of Myeongryang his greatest achievement, you cant even create a story where you would think this was realistic. This guy was beaten to an ounce of his life because of political machinations and his replacement lost pretty much the entire Korean Navy 180+ out of 200+ ships at the Battle of Chilcheolyang that proved that sending an average commander to go against the Japanese was almost a guaranteed loss. The Joseon King immediately reinstates Yi and with the 13 ships he had left, proceeded to destroy the entire Japanese Navy that proceeded to lose 18,000+ men and 30 ships while Yi did not lose a single ship and lost literally 2 men killed and 3 wounded in battle that started as 330 Japanese ships vs the 13 Korean ships left standing
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:59 am    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
There is without question 1 person in Korean history who is recognized as the greatest Korean person who ever lived whose military greatness is on par with Alexander, Napolean and Sabutai and surpasses his Western peer (Horatio Nelson), Cao Cao from Romance of the Three Kingdoms era and even Julius Caesar and any American military hero than you can think of (McArthur, Patton, Lee, Grant, Eisenhower, literally no one in American history compares or is frankly even close to matching this guy's genius): Yi Sun Shin

This guy is literally Michael Jordan of the 80s taking his problem children Bulls (The deteriorating crap that was frankly the Joseon dynasty) and not only beating the 1986 Celtics (the Japanese Armada and nation finally unified under Toyotomi Hideyoshi) but utterly destroying and sweeping them and not 1 year but every single damn time. The legend is that you can give Yi farmers with 10 sticks and he will be able to figure out how to beat an army of 100 with well equipped weapons.

If this person was not alive, Korea would have 100%, not 99.9999%, lost the Imjin War and been part of the Japanese Empire under Toyotomi Hideyoshi meaning all Koreans today would be Japanese. Hideyoshi did not even consider Korea a threat but a little stepping step in the war to conquering his real prize: The Ming Empire of China.

If you read his military exploits and the odds he faced EVERY time in over 30 engagements while being undefeated AND suffering minimal casualties in all of them with the Battle of Myeongryang his greatest achievement, you cant even create a story where you would think this was realistic. This guy was beaten to an ounce of his life because of political machinations and his replacement lost pretty much the entire Korean Navy 280+ out of 300+ ships at the Battle of Chilcheolyang that proved that sending an average commander to go against the Japanese was almost a guaranteed loss. The Joseon King immediately reinstates Yi and with the 13 ships he had left, proceeded to destroy the entire Japanese Navy that proceeded to lose 18,000+ men and 30 ships while Yi did not lose a single ship and lost literally 2 men killed and 3 wounded in battle that started as 330 Japanese ships vs the 13 Korean ships left standing



Strangely enough, I happen to be familiar with Admiral Yi Sun-sin. The Battle of Myeongryang eclipses the Battle of Salamis in terms of neutralizing an supposedly superior enemy fleet, and in the process eliminating a rival invading power.

I beg to differ on Robert E. Lee. Great tactician as the Battle of Fredericksburg demonstrated, but an utter fool on a strategic level.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:39 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
There is without question 1 person in Korean history who is recognized as the greatest Korean person who ever lived whose military greatness is on par with Alexander, Napolean and Sabutai and surpasses his Western peer (Horatio Nelson), Cao Cao from Romance of the Three Kingdoms era and even Julius Caesar and any American military hero than you can think of (McArthur, Patton, Lee, Grant, Eisenhower, literally no one in American history compares or is frankly even close to matching this guy's genius): Yi Sun Shin

This guy is literally Michael Jordan of the 80s taking his problem children Bulls (The deteriorating crap that was frankly the Joseon dynasty) and not only beating the 1986 Celtics (the Japanese Armada and nation finally unified under Toyotomi Hideyoshi) but utterly destroying and sweeping them and not 1 year but every single damn time. The legend is that you can give Yi farmers with 10 sticks and he will be able to figure out how to beat an army of 100 with well equipped weapons.

If this person was not alive, Korea would have 100%, not 99.9999%, lost the Imjin War and been part of the Japanese Empire under Toyotomi Hideyoshi meaning all Koreans today would be Japanese. Hideyoshi did not even consider Korea a threat but a little stepping step in the war to conquering his real prize: The Ming Empire of China.

If you read his military exploits and the odds he faced EVERY time in over 30 engagements while being undefeated AND suffering minimal casualties in all of them with the Battle of Myeongryang his greatest achievement, you cant even create a story where you would think this was realistic. This guy was beaten to an ounce of his life because of political machinations and his replacement lost pretty much the entire Korean Navy 280+ out of 300+ ships at the Battle of Chilcheolyang that proved that sending an average commander to go against the Japanese was almost a guaranteed loss. The Joseon King immediately reinstates Yi and with the 13 ships he had left, proceeded to destroy the entire Japanese Navy that proceeded to lose 18,000+ men and 30 ships while Yi did not lose a single ship and lost literally 2 men killed and 3 wounded in battle that started as 330 Japanese ships vs the 13 Korean ships left standing



Strangely enough, I happen to be familiar with Admiral Yi Sun-sin. The Battle of Myeongryang eclipses the Battle of Salamis in terms of neutralizing an supposedly superior enemy fleet, and in the process eliminating a rival invading power.

I beg to differ on Robert E. Lee. Great tactician as the Battle of Fredericksburg demonstrated, but an utter fool on a strategic level.


This is why I believe like in sports, a war is not pre-determined in terms of the winner. A brilliant commander in the right place at the right time with the right strategic mind can completely change the course of history. If you were to objectively the measure the odds of success of a Japanese invasion of Korea in the late 16th century vs the North's plan to invade the South, the Japanese invasion would have been viewed as having a much higher chance of success.

Like you said Lee was a tactical genius but a strategic fool - the worst case scenario. All he did essentially was delay the end result with far more deaths than needed to be. But I always believed Thomas Stonewall Jackson was the most brilliant man in that war (proven with his flexibility and intellect in the Shenandoah Valley) and the one who had the right strategic plan of attack in handling the North which is essentially what William Sherman did to the South to bring the South to its knees: Avoid pitched battles and completely destroy civilians and their property, forcing the North to come to terms, leaving the Confederate States of America intact.

Thankfully for US history, 1. Jackson died in a fluke accident and 2. was ranked under Lee, meaning Lee would have gone ahead with his plan for a decisive battle up north anyways without Jackson being given a chance to even salvage this foolhardy plan - causing more deaths. Had these two switched places though, we might be seeing a completely different America today.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:18 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
There is without question 1 person in Korean history who is recognized as the greatest Korean person who ever lived whose military greatness is on par with Alexander, Napolean and Sabutai and surpasses his Western peer (Horatio Nelson), Cao Cao from Romance of the Three Kingdoms era and even Julius Caesar and any American military hero than you can think of (McArthur, Patton, Lee, Grant, Eisenhower, literally no one in American history compares or is frankly even close to matching this guy's genius): Yi Sun Shin

This guy is literally Michael Jordan of the 80s taking his problem children Bulls (The deteriorating crap that was frankly the Joseon dynasty) and not only beating the 1986 Celtics (the Japanese Armada and nation finally unified under Toyotomi Hideyoshi) but utterly destroying and sweeping them and not 1 year but every single damn time. The legend is that you can give Yi farmers with 10 sticks and he will be able to figure out how to beat an army of 100 with well equipped weapons.

If this person was not alive, Korea would have 100%, not 99.9999%, lost the Imjin War and been part of the Japanese Empire under Toyotomi Hideyoshi meaning all Koreans today would be Japanese. Hideyoshi did not even consider Korea a threat but a little stepping step in the war to conquering his real prize: The Ming Empire of China.

If you read his military exploits and the odds he faced EVERY time in over 30 engagements while being undefeated AND suffering minimal casualties in all of them with the Battle of Myeongryang his greatest achievement, you cant even create a story where you would think this was realistic. This guy was beaten to an ounce of his life because of political machinations and his replacement lost pretty much the entire Korean Navy 280+ out of 300+ ships at the Battle of Chilcheolyang that proved that sending an average commander to go against the Japanese was almost a guaranteed loss. The Joseon King immediately reinstates Yi and with the 13 ships he had left, proceeded to destroy the entire Japanese Navy that proceeded to lose 18,000+ men and 30 ships while Yi did not lose a single ship and lost literally 2 men killed and 3 wounded in battle that started as 330 Japanese ships vs the 13 Korean ships left standing



Strangely enough, I happen to be familiar with Admiral Yi Sun-sin. The Battle of Myeongryang eclipses the Battle of Salamis in terms of neutralizing an supposedly superior enemy fleet, and in the process eliminating a rival invading power.

I beg to differ on Robert E. Lee. Great tactician as the Battle of Fredericksburg demonstrated, but an utter fool on a strategic level.


This is why I believe like in sports, a war is not pre-determined in terms of the winner. A brilliant commander in the right place at the right time with the right strategic mind can completely change the course of history. If you were to objectively the measure the odds of success of a Japanese invasion of Korea in the late 16th century vs the North's plan to invade the South, the Japanese invasion would have been viewed as having a much higher chance of success.

Like you said Lee was a tactical genius but a strategic fool - the worst case scenario. All he did essentially was delay the end result with far more deaths than needed to be. But I always believed Thomas Stonewall Jackson was the most brilliant man in that war (proven with his flexibility and intellect in the Shenandoah Valley) and the one who had the right strategic plan of attack in handling the North which is essentially what William Sherman did to the South to bring the South to its knees: Avoid pitched battles and completely destroy civilians and their property, forcing the North to come to terms, leaving the Confederate States of America intact.

Thankfully for US history, 1. Jackson died in a fluke accident and 2. was ranked under Lee, meaning Lee would have gone ahead with his plan for a decisive battle up north anyways without Jackson being given a chance to even salvage this foolhardy plan - causing more deaths. Had these two switched places though, we might be seeing a completely different America today.



Yes, killing or removing a key commander can completely change the outcome of a battle (the final motivation of the protagonist in For Whom the Bell Tolls). Once Stonewall Jackson was accidentally killed at Chancellorsville, Lee lost his most able counsel. There's an excellent chance that Jackson would have dissuaded Lee from invading Pennsylvania, it was a stupid move. Longstreet tried but couldn't change Lee's mind owing to Lee's hubris; even Jefferson Davis who was a West Point man didn't think it was good idea. The correct strategic move would have been to relieve Vicksburg, and go on defense in the east with a remnant force. The CSA controlled the railroads from Fredericksburg almost to Jackson, MS, simplifying the transport and logistical support of his army. He invaded the north while under the delusion that Grant would disengage and reinforce the Army of the Potomac, which was not only a gamble, it was delusional. The Army of the Potomac was larger and far better supplied than his Army of Northern Virginia. Further, the loss of Vicksburg would destroy the CSA economy, cut it in half, and destroy its ability to sustain a war. Compounding that error was Lee's inability to understand logistics as his supply line was thin, poorly protected and overexposed through the Shenandoah Valley (it wouldn't have taken a large Union force to completely cut him off). While his troops could forage off the land, they didn't have the supply of ordnance needed to contract a prolonged battle. I think part of the motivation behind Pickett's Charge was that the CSA had exhausted their supplies. But that is beside the point, even if there was no Pickett's Charge the CSA was doomed as Vicksburg fell due to Lee's failure to provide relief. Once Lee pointed his army north instead of southwest, the CSA was doomed.

Neither Sherman nor Grant would have made such a blunder.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:05 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
There is without question 1 person in Korean history who is recognized as the greatest Korean person who ever lived whose military greatness is on par with Alexander, Napolean and Sabutai and surpasses his Western peer (Horatio Nelson), Cao Cao from Romance of the Three Kingdoms era and even Julius Caesar and any American military hero than you can think of (McArthur, Patton, Lee, Grant, Eisenhower, literally no one in American history compares or is frankly even close to matching this guy's genius): Yi Sun Shin

This guy is literally Michael Jordan of the 80s taking his problem children Bulls (The deteriorating crap that was frankly the Joseon dynasty) and not only beating the 1986 Celtics (the Japanese Armada and nation finally unified under Toyotomi Hideyoshi) but utterly destroying and sweeping them and not 1 year but every single damn time. The legend is that you can give Yi farmers with 10 sticks and he will be able to figure out how to beat an army of 100 with well equipped weapons.

If this person was not alive, Korea would have 100%, not 99.9999%, lost the Imjin War and been part of the Japanese Empire under Toyotomi Hideyoshi meaning all Koreans today would be Japanese. Hideyoshi did not even consider Korea a threat but a little stepping step in the war to conquering his real prize: The Ming Empire of China.

If you read his military exploits and the odds he faced EVERY time in over 30 engagements while being undefeated AND suffering minimal casualties in all of them with the Battle of Myeongryang his greatest achievement, you cant even create a story where you would think this was realistic. This guy was beaten to an ounce of his life because of political machinations and his replacement lost pretty much the entire Korean Navy 280+ out of 300+ ships at the Battle of Chilcheolyang that proved that sending an average commander to go against the Japanese was almost a guaranteed loss. The Joseon King immediately reinstates Yi and with the 13 ships he had left, proceeded to destroy the entire Japanese Navy that proceeded to lose 18,000+ men and 30 ships while Yi did not lose a single ship and lost literally 2 men killed and 3 wounded in battle that started as 330 Japanese ships vs the 13 Korean ships left standing



Strangely enough, I happen to be familiar with Admiral Yi Sun-sin. The Battle of Myeongryang eclipses the Battle of Salamis in terms of neutralizing an supposedly superior enemy fleet, and in the process eliminating a rival invading power.

I beg to differ on Robert E. Lee. Great tactician as the Battle of Fredericksburg demonstrated, but an utter fool on a strategic level.


This is why I believe like in sports, a war is not pre-determined in terms of the winner. A brilliant commander in the right place at the right time with the right strategic mind can completely change the course of history. If you were to objectively the measure the odds of success of a Japanese invasion of Korea in the late 16th century vs the North's plan to invade the South, the Japanese invasion would have been viewed as having a much higher chance of success.

Like you said Lee was a tactical genius but a strategic fool - the worst case scenario. All he did essentially was delay the end result with far more deaths than needed to be. But I always believed Thomas Stonewall Jackson was the most brilliant man in that war (proven with his flexibility and intellect in the Shenandoah Valley) and the one who had the right strategic plan of attack in handling the North which is essentially what William Sherman did to the South to bring the South to its knees: Avoid pitched battles and completely destroy civilians and their property, forcing the North to come to terms, leaving the Confederate States of America intact.

Thankfully for US history, 1. Jackson died in a fluke accident and 2. was ranked under Lee, meaning Lee would have gone ahead with his plan for a decisive battle up north anyways without Jackson being given a chance to even salvage this foolhardy plan - causing more deaths. Had these two switched places though, we might be seeing a completely different America today.



Yes, killing or removing a key commander can completely change the outcome of a battle (the final motivation of the protagonist in For Whom the Bell Tolls). Once Stonewall Jackson was accidentally killed at Chancellorsville, Lee lost his most able counsel. There's an excellent chance that Jackson would have dissuaded Lee from invading Pennsylvania, it was a stupid move. Longstreet tried but couldn't change Lee's mind owing to Lee's hubris; even Jefferson Davis who was a West Point man didn't think it was good idea. The correct strategic move would have been to relieve Vicksburg, and go on defense in the east with a remnant force. The CSA controlled the railroads from Fredericksburg almost to Jackson, MS, simplifying the transport and logistical support of his army. He invaded the north while under the delusion that Grant would disengage and reinforce the Army of the Potomac, which was not only a gamble, it was delusional. The Army of the Potomac was larger and far better supplied than his Army of Northern Virginia. Further, the loss of Vicksburg would destroy the CSA economy, cut it in half, and destroy its ability to sustain a war. Compounding that error was Lee's inability to understand logistics as his supply line was thin, poorly protected and overexposed through the Shenandoah Valley (it wouldn't have taken a large Union force to completely cut him off). While his troops could forage off the land, they didn't have the supply of ordnance needed to contract a prolonged battle. I think part of the motivation behind Pickett's Charge was that the CSA had exhausted their supplies. But that is beside the point, even if there was no Pickett's Charge the CSA was doomed as Vicksburg fell due to Lee's failure to provide relief. Once Lee pointed his army north instead of southwest, the CSA was doomed.

Neither Sherman nor Grant would have made such a blunder.


Speaking of Civil War generals....how about arguably the most "perfect" man around at the time who was considered handsome, popular, organized, meticulous with details and brilliant (First leader of the Army of the Potomac and graduated 1st in his West Point class) George B. McCllellan. Had all the gifts you could ask for.....and lacked the one thing a soldier needs most: Conviction. I find McCllellan a fascinating tale of what-ifs. I cant even think of a basketball comparison to him. Who is given GOAT-ish not just all-star talents that go completely to waste????

In baseball a good comp would be Pete Reiser of the Brooklyn Dodgers who his manager Durocher said was more talented than Willie Mays and taught himself within a very short time to switch hit and play centerfield and became so good that centerfield became his natural position and he soon extensively hit left handed when he was originally a right handed hitter. But Reiser had a very good reason he never reached his peak which is he nearly several times literally killed himself smashing into the centerfield wall and lost his timing to hit a baseball and messed up his shoulder and other body parts
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angrypuppy
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:15 am    Post subject:

^
McCellellan was a strange cat. He was responsible for whipping the Army of the Potomac into a formidable, organized fighting force, he rebuilt their morale, he was at times brilliant, and yet he certainly lacked conviction.

We lack the perspective of a psychoanalyst, but he was handicapped by over-thinking, particularly when he was under pressure. The Peninsula Campaign was a work of wonder in its complexity, to the point where there were too many moving parts and thus too many vulnerabilities for Lee and Jackson to exploit. He constantly over-estimated the strength of the enemy, shades of "They might be giants" during both Antietam and the Peninsula Campaign, but some of that is simply a manufactured excuse by Little Mac. The core of the problem is what is popularly called "analysis paralysis" where he'd study the problem at length, see all the pros and cons, and allow the fear of the cons to lead him to inaction. Yes, that's a lack of conviction that appears frequently in the heat of battle. When Lee's entire order of battle fortuitously fell into his hands prior to Antietam, he became jubilant, followed by uncertainty and second-guessing. In chess the old adage states that "superior force must win". McClellan had the superior force, freedom of movement and position to coordinate an attack that could have disabled the Army of Northern Virginia.

Pistol Pete was sort of the opposite. He too had an incredible inventory of gifts. On the playing field, he was dialed-in and wanted to win. No wall could contain his enthusiasm; unfortunately the aforementioned walls destroyed what could have been the most promising career in baseball history.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject:

Kwai Chang Caine.

Orphaned after his maternal grandfather's death, Caine eventually found himself outside the local Shaolin temple along with other hopeful candidates. After waiting patiently for several days, Caine and the few other remaining candidates were taken inside the temple where only Caine passed a subtle test in manners.

Following his induction into the order, Caine then lived in the temple until adulthood, mastering many of the fighting forms and lessons taught by the Shaolin monks (Crane, Snake, Praying Mantis, Tiger, and Dragon). At one point during his training he was shown the various forms and Master Kan explained that it may take half a lifetime to master one of the forms.

One of his first instructors was the blind master named Po. Po considered Caine his favorite pupil and behaved more like an elderly grandfather. Caine was given the nickname "Grasshopper" by Master Po; the reference was from an exchange where the still ignorant young Caine asked the old blind master how he could function without seeing. Po asked Caine to close his eyes and describe what he could hear. Caine explained that he could hear the water flowing in a nearby fountain and birds in a nearby cage. Po then asked if Caine could hear his own heartbeat or the grasshopper at his feet (Caine hadn't noticed the insect until that moment). Incredulous, Caine asked Po, "Old man – how is it that you hear these things?" Po's reply was, "Young man, how is it that you do not?" From that point on, Po affectionately called Caine "Grasshopper".

Years after his graduation, Caine traveled to the Forbidden City to meet Po, whose lifelong ambition had been to travel to a festival at the Temple of Heaven on that date, the full moon of May - the 13th day of the 5th month in the Year of the Dog. While they were talking together in the street, the Emperor's nephew and his entourage came along and an altercation ensued when a guard tried to push Po aside and was sent sprawling by the blind Shaolin. While defending himself from the other guards, Master Po was shot by the Emperor's nephew. Before the nephew could reload his pistol, the enraged Caine seized a guard's fallen spear and killed the Imperial nephew. With his dying words, Po gave Caine his pouch containing his few worldly possessions and instructed Caine to flee from China as there would be both no place to hide and a price on his head.[3] Before he fled China, Caine returned to the temple to confess his deed to Master Kan.[4] Later, Imperial guards attacked and stormed the temple, only to find it deserted (the monks having fled before the army's arrival); in retaliation, they burned the temple to the ground.

At first, Caine tried to flee to Tibet but was unsuccessful. He then escaped to the Arizona and discovered from his grandfather Henry Caine that he had a half-brother named Daniel. While he searched for Danny, he was on the run from a steady stream of bounty hunters and Chinese agents, some of whom were also Shaolin priests like himself, searching for him.

Shaolin, monks and priests usually shave their heads and remain celibate, however Caine was a G and knew after his 1st party at ASU there would be no way he could keep his hands off the lady folk.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:04 pm    Post subject:

One more thought on McClellan: He was architect of one of the most complex campaign plans of that time period. In fact, it was too brilliant. It's always best to keep things simple as it can give you more flexibility to counter. Using two lines of supply in that campaign was extraordinary: He launched his campaign near Yorktown via sea, with the goal to move towards Richmond. He knew that supply line was too damn long, so being the good engineer, he had roads built along the way. He then shortened his supply line by using a more direct land-based route. Brilliant perhaps on paper, but an inflexible disaster in the making.

Building the roads destroyed his ability to move fast, bogging down his army in the mud and marshes (disease like typhoid and malaria took their toll). And it gave him two supply lines to protect rather than one, which he discovered all too late when Lee and Stonewall threatened both his overland supply line and Washington DC.

U.S. Grant was a master at reducing complexity. He simply used his superior force in a direct route to Richmond years later. He had only one supply line to protect, and provided (barely) enough troops to protect DC in his rear. It was also a direct route, which made sense as Richmond is only 100 or so miles away from Washington DC. Whatever clever tactical more Lee would deploy, Grant would wear him down. Whenever Grant lost a battle on a tactical level, he wouldn't pull a McClellan move and retreat from the battle and reorganize. Grant would simply use his superior force to flank and move around the Army of Northern Virginia, which forced Lee to flee south to protect Richmond. Any gain by Lee was at best a Pyrrhic victory, but a major strategic defeat. Rinse and repeat, over and over. The campaign plan was simple, and it was decisive.
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