2020 NBA DRAFT THREAD
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PlantedTanks
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:57 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Seriously thinking of moving Reed up. It blows me away that he's only a few months older than Achiuwa and it seems like Precious is going to go late lottery while Reed is projected as second round pick.


Achiuwa is one of my favorites in this draft due to the effort he gives on the court. His bbiq seems really high and I believe he has low bust potential and would be able to adjust his play with any team.

Finally viewed Reed and he is great athletically and explosive. How do you feel about his bbiq and overall game?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:31 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Seriously thinking of moving Reed up. It blows me away that he's only a few months older than Achiuwa and it seems like Precious is going to go late lottery while Reed is projected as second round pick.


Achiuwa is one of my favorites in this draft due to the effort he gives on the court. His bbiq seems really high and I believe he has low bust potential and would be able to adjust his play with any team.

Finally viewed Reed and he is great athletically and explosive. How do you feel about his bbiq and overall game?

I think Achiuwa and Reed have the same main issue on offense: both of them try to do too much and get sped up leading to poor decisionmaking. But I like Reed's handle a little more and I buy into his shot a little more than Achiuwa's.

I question both of their bbiqs, but Reed's moreso than Achiuwa's. Reed seems to function on pure instinct most of the time, which makes me interested to see what a good developmental staff could do to harness his chaotic energy.

Without a jumper both guys are career backups and Achiuwa has the bulk to play minutes as a small ball C, so I'd say his floor is higher sans jumpshot. If both do develop jumpers then I'm impressed with Reed's athleticism and think he could develop into a really useful 3-4 defender - Jerami Grant optimistically - which is more valuable in the NBA than an undersized C defender.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:05 pm    Post subject:

Beyond Achiuwa and Reed, some other second round value picks in lieu of projected first rounders:

Malachi Flynn instead of Cole Anthony
Reggie Perry instead of Obi Toppin
Jordan Nwora instead of Saddiq Bey
Isaiah Joe instead of Aaron Nesmith (obviously Bane over Nesmith, as well)

Not saying that all the second round picks will be better than their first round counterparts, but I think teams'll get comparable production/impact while having their 1st(s) to address other needs.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:13 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Beyond Achiuwa and Reed, some other second round value picks in lieu of projected first rounders:

Malachi Flynn instead of Cole Anthony
Reggie Perry instead of Obi Toppin
Jordan Nwora instead of Saddiq Bey
Isaiah Joe instead of Aaron Nesmith (obviously Bane over Nesmith, as well)

Not saying that all the second round picks will be better than their first round counterparts, but I think teams'll get comparable production/impact while having their 1st(s) to address other needs.


Agree with all. I will add

Robert Woodard instead of Isaac Okoro
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:25 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Beyond Achiuwa and Reed, some other second round value picks in lieu of projected first rounders:

Malachi Flynn instead of Cole Anthony
Reggie Perry instead of Obi Toppin
Jordan Nwora instead of Saddiq Bey
Isaiah Joe instead of Aaron Nesmith (obviously Bane over Nesmith, as well)

Not saying that all the second round picks will be better than their first round counterparts, but I think teams'll get comparable production/impact while having their 1st(s) to address other needs.


Yep, I can't stand Cole tape, even he was hurt most of the season. Flynn is an easier read and a local guy. A little bigger, and he'd be mid-first.

Perry, I was told had bad intangibles. Toppin, if he's a productive NBA player, it almost doesn't matter if he can't play defense. He'll be on a rookie contract as a vertical lob threat with a clue for passing and a hint of 3pt range. With motor.

I like Bey more than Nwora.

Nesmith for me is too little sample size. At least I can say I watched Joe initiate some offense as a frosh before being more of a 2nd guy next to Mason Jones. Both of those guys have 1 NBA skill that can get them in the league.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:43 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Beyond Achiuwa and Reed, some other second round value picks in lieu of projected first rounders:

Malachi Flynn instead of Cole Anthony
Reggie Perry instead of Obi Toppin
Jordan Nwora instead of Saddiq Bey
Isaiah Joe instead of Aaron Nesmith (obviously Bane over Nesmith, as well)

Not saying that all the second round picks will be better than their first round counterparts, but I think teams'll get comparable production/impact while having their 1st(s) to address other needs.


Yep, I can't stand Cole tape, even he was hurt most of the season. Flynn is an easier read and a local guy. A little bigger, and he'd be mid-first.

Perry, I was told had bad intangibles. Toppin, if he's a productive NBA player, it almost doesn't matter if he can't play defense. He'll be on a rookie contract as a vertical lob threat with a clue for passing and a hint of 3pt range. With motor.

I like Bey more than Nwora.

Nesmith for me is too little sample size. At least I can say I watched Joe initiate some offense as a frosh before being more of a 2nd guy next to Mason Jones. Both of those guys have 1 NBA skill that can get them in the league.

What don't you like with Cole's tape?

Nwora reminds me of Dillon Brooks and I believe he will have a similar impact and role in the league. Smart professional scorers. Another one more athletic than I first thought. Probably ready to contribute his first season and fits at the back end of the 1st round.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:30 pm    Post subject:

Blue chip teams play pretty bad offenses and just get super talented recruits to bail them out and make them look marketable.

Cole Anthony's tape looks like playing with 1 shooter and 3 bigs. Just garbage spacing, passing lanes, all of it, and he had to find places to shoot on the floor while contested because of it.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:00 am    Post subject:

A board worth looking at.

https://twitter.com/Dennis_TTG/status/1296079622602448897
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:11 pm    Post subject:

Fun draft big board generator set up by Stephen Noh: https://stephennoh.github.io/bigboardcreator/

My big board:

Ball
Okongwu
Okoro
Hayes
Avdija
Vassell
Wiseman
Edwards
Haliburton
Poku
Toppin

Not bad!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:08 pm    Post subject:

Same one.. but I disagree with it.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:47 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
A board worth looking at.

https://twitter.com/Dennis_TTG/status/1296079622602448897


A little too heavy on play makers and light on big men/shooters/athleticism at the top tiers for me.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:57 pm    Post subject:

Obi
Wiseman
Ball
Edwards
Okongwu
Avdija
Hayes
Okoro
Haliburton
Vassell
Poku

That was interesting.

Poku seems to have risen up the board.The level of competition he plays against leaves me a little unsure of how long he will take to transition to the league and how effective his talent will be. One example is his ability to protect the rim.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:37 am    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
A board worth looking at.

https://twitter.com/Dennis_TTG/status/1296079622602448897


A little too heavy on play makers and light on big men/shooters/athleticism at the top tiers for me.


That's deliberate.

The playmakers tend to make the most impact.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:50 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Beyond Achiuwa and Reed, some other second round value picks in lieu of projected first rounders:

Malachi Flynn instead of Cole Anthony
Reggie Perry instead of Obi Toppin
Jordan Nwora instead of Saddiq Bey
Isaiah Joe instead of Aaron Nesmith (obviously Bane over Nesmith, as well)

Not saying that all the second round picks will be better than their first round counterparts, but I think teams'll get comparable production/impact while having their 1st(s) to address other needs.


Yep, I can't stand Cole tape, even he was hurt most of the season. Flynn is an easier read and a local guy. A little bigger, and he'd be mid-first.

Perry, I was told had bad intangibles. Toppin, if he's a productive NBA player, it almost doesn't matter if he can't play defense. He'll be on a rookie contract as a vertical lob threat with a clue for passing and a hint of 3pt range. With motor.

I like Bey more than Nwora.

Nesmith for me is too little sample size. At least I can say I watched Joe initiate some offense as a frosh before being more of a 2nd guy next to Mason Jones. Both of those guys have 1 NBA skill that can get them in the league.

Toppin's motor seems to sputter a bit on defense and the defensive glass, though.

I like Bey more than Nwora, too, but I don't see either as a future NBA starter. Bey's more likely to stick as a bench rotation guy and Nwora more likely to wash out, but I don't see a 30 pick gap between the two. If I'm the new GM of the Kings, landing Poku late lottery and Nwora in the second is more optimal than S. Bey at #12 and, say, Isaiah Stewart in the second because the gap in value between Poku and Stewart is greater than that between Bey and Nwora.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:06 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Beyond Achiuwa and Reed, some other second round value picks in lieu of projected first rounders:

Malachi Flynn instead of Cole Anthony
Reggie Perry instead of Obi Toppin
Jordan Nwora instead of Saddiq Bey
Isaiah Joe instead of Aaron Nesmith (obviously Bane over Nesmith, as well)

Not saying that all the second round picks will be better than their first round counterparts, but I think teams'll get comparable production/impact while having their 1st(s) to address other needs.


Yep, I can't stand Cole tape, even he was hurt most of the season. Flynn is an easier read and a local guy. A little bigger, and he'd be mid-first.

Perry, I was told had bad intangibles. Toppin, if he's a productive NBA player, it almost doesn't matter if he can't play defense. He'll be on a rookie contract as a vertical lob threat with a clue for passing and a hint of 3pt range. With motor.

I like Bey more than Nwora.

Nesmith for me is too little sample size. At least I can say I watched Joe initiate some offense as a frosh before being more of a 2nd guy next to Mason Jones. Both of those guys have 1 NBA skill that can get them in the league.

Toppin's motor seems to sputter a bit on defense and the defensive glass, though.

I like Bey more than Nwora, too, but I don't see either as a future NBA starter. Bey's more likely to stick as a bench rotation guy and Nwora more likely to wash out, but I don't see a 30 pick gap between the two. If I'm the new GM of the Kings, landing Poku late lottery and Nwora in the second is more optimal than S. Bey at #12 and, say, Isaiah Stewart in the second because the gap in value between Poku and Stewart is greater than that between Bey and Nwora.


I read that Toppin was working on his lateral quickness during Covid period. Good for him. He's just a really late bloomer, and at worst is what, a PF version of JaVale McGee with a clue for passing and a whiff of shooting? Not that bad out of this draft tbh.

I don't see most of these guys as NBA starters. Mostly 7-8th type rotation guys.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:38 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Beyond Achiuwa and Reed, some other second round value picks in lieu of projected first rounders:

Malachi Flynn instead of Cole Anthony
Reggie Perry instead of Obi Toppin
Jordan Nwora instead of Saddiq Bey
Isaiah Joe instead of Aaron Nesmith (obviously Bane over Nesmith, as well)

Not saying that all the second round picks will be better than their first round counterparts, but I think teams'll get comparable production/impact while having their 1st(s) to address other needs.


Yep, I can't stand Cole tape, even he was hurt most of the season. Flynn is an easier read and a local guy. A little bigger, and he'd be mid-first.

Perry, I was told had bad intangibles. Toppin, if he's a productive NBA player, it almost doesn't matter if he can't play defense. He'll be on a rookie contract as a vertical lob threat with a clue for passing and a hint of 3pt range. With motor.

I like Bey more than Nwora.

Nesmith for me is too little sample size. At least I can say I watched Joe initiate some offense as a frosh before being more of a 2nd guy next to Mason Jones. Both of those guys have 1 NBA skill that can get them in the league.

Toppin's motor seems to sputter a bit on defense and the defensive glass, though.

I like Bey more than Nwora, too, but I don't see either as a future NBA starter. Bey's more likely to stick as a bench rotation guy and Nwora more likely to wash out, but I don't see a 30 pick gap between the two. If I'm the new GM of the Kings, landing Poku late lottery and Nwora in the second is more optimal than S. Bey at #12 and, say, Isaiah Stewart in the second because the gap in value between Poku and Stewart is greater than that between Bey and Nwora.


I read that Toppin was working on his lateral quickness during Covid period. Good for him. He's just a really late bloomer, and at worst is what, a PF version of JaVale McGee with a clue for passing and a whiff of shooting? Not that bad out of this draft tbh.

I don't see most of these guys as NBA starters. Mostly 7-8th type rotation guys.

JaVale being 7' with a 7'6 wingspan makes a huge difference and he's not tasked with being a perimeter defender as Toppin will be most nights at PF. My disagreement is not really with you - I really, really don't like Toppin, but I understand why teams will draft him. My issue is with the team in the top 10 that drafts one of the oldest players available with one decent year of shooting on his resume who has physical limitations on defense that will be hard to overcome, especially for a prospect who didn't display much interest on that end.

The Cavs drafting him at #5 to be an empty stats guy who ends up as a bench scorer on another team during his second contract would be very Cavs-y.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:43 am    Post subject:

Quote:
My issue is with the team in the top 10 that drafts one of the oldest players available with one decent year of shooting on his resume who has physical limitations on defense that will be hard to overcome, especially for a prospect who didn't display much interest on that end.


Yep. It does get to a point in the draft where you know who Toppin is and ask yourself, do I take a middling swing or guard over him?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:05 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
A board worth looking at.

https://twitter.com/Dennis_TTG/status/1296079622602448897


A little too heavy on play makers and light on big men/shooters/athleticism at the top tiers for me.


That's deliberate.

The playmakers tend to make the most impact.


If measuring stats I agree on most immediate impact but I am of the belief teams should be built around skilled/versatile wings and big men.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:19 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
My issue is with the team in the top 10 that drafts one of the oldest players available with one decent year of shooting on his resume who has physical limitations on defense that will be hard to overcome, especially for a prospect who didn't display much interest on that end.


Yep. It does get to a point in the draft where you know who Toppin is and ask yourself, do I take a middling swing or guard over him?


No. I don't mind a one (possibly two) trick specialist. Obi can become a professional scorer while providing at minimum adequate defense, rim protection and passing.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:12 pm    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
A board worth looking at.

https://twitter.com/Dennis_TTG/status/1296079622602448897


A little too heavy on play makers and light on big men/shooters/athleticism at the top tiers for me.


That's deliberate.

The playmakers tend to make the most impact.


If measuring stats I agree on most immediate impact but I am of the belief teams should be built around skilled/versatile wings and big men.


Usually it's initiators that dictate. Wings have to be incredibly polished to have similar impact. FWIW, I consider Kobe an initiating wing for the first 3 peat. Then the responsibility got shouldered by Gasol and Odom, but Kobe still did it at POA, not Fisher.

That's why it's Donovan Mitchell, Jokic, Dame, LBJ, Luka, etc being the best guys for their respective teams. Kawhi is outlier.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:16 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
A board worth looking at.

https://twitter.com/Dennis_TTG/status/1296079622602448897


A little too heavy on play makers and light on big men/shooters/athleticism at the top tiers for me.


That's deliberate.

The playmakers tend to make the most impact.


If measuring stats I agree on most immediate impact but I am of the belief teams should be built around skilled/versatile wings and big men.


Usually it's initiators that dictate. Wings have to be incredibly polished to have similar impact. FWIW, I consider Kobe an initiating wing for the first 3 peat. Then the responsibility got shouldered by Gasol and Odom, but Kobe still did it at POA, not Fisher.

That's why it's Donovan Mitchell, Jokic, Dame, LBJ, Luka, etc being the best guys for their respective teams. Kawhi is outlier.


I agree on impact but in a lot of instances it is a result of ball dominance and does not indicate their true value to a team.

In the case of Kobe the triangle, reliance on Shaq and Kobe's iso skills did not require an actual true play maker on those Laker teams.

The current dominant teams (Lakers, Bucks, Clippers, Celtics, Dallas, Denver) rely on highly skilled bigger wings, PF's or C's.

Toronto is an outlier relying on overall team strength/depth while Luka and Jokic are just outliers onto themselves.

The problem is these type of players are harder to identify and actually exist while the C Anthony's, K Lewis and T Maxey's exist every year.

I would rather take a chance on Wiseman, J McDaniels and possibly P Williams (he has grown on me) who may emerge as possible game changers. Michael Porter Jr. also falls into this category.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:45 am    Post subject:

Quote:

I agree on impact but in a lot of instances it is a result of ball dominance and does not indicate their true value to a team.

In the case of Kobe the triangle, reliance on Shaq and Kobe's iso skills did not require an actual true play maker on those Laker teams.

The current dominant teams (Lakers, Bucks, Clippers, Celtics, Dallas, Denver) rely on highly skilled bigger wings, PF's or C's.

Toronto is an outlier relying on overall team strength/depth while Luka and Jokic are just outliers onto themselves.

The problem is these type of players are harder to identify and actually exist while the C Anthony's, K Lewis and T Maxey's exist every year.

I would rather take a chance on Wiseman, J McDaniels and possibly P Williams (he has grown on me) who may emerge as possible game changers. Michael Porter Jr. also falls into this category.
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I disagree about the impact of initiators due to USG. It's not directly linked to that. It's more due to the guard skill play in correlation with USG. This is part of why the value of bigmen has fallen so drastically. Lots of guys can rim run, board, swat to varying levels. They're a dime a dozen. Initiators that are 2 or 3 level scoreres? That's a guy with gravity that gets 20ppg. Can pass a little? Now it's open shots in the paint.

It's more like, the Lakers needed the triangle to make up for the lack of high rate playmaking from a point guard. Same with Chicago.

No one uses the triangle anymore because there's a wealth of talented 2 and 3 way PGs that can run PnR or even play some off ball.

The current dominant teams play big wings, as initiators. That's LeBron. That's Giannis. Kawhi developed it. Jayson Tatum in the crunch over Kemba. Luka. Jokic.

Toronto is an outlier relying on effort and execution to get the most juice out of that Orange.

I don't value MPJ. He's a 6'10" Lou Williams, and can't pass or defend. That's the kind of guy that takes the rhythm out of your team.

Jaden McDaniels is a poor decision maker.
Wiseman is a twitchy version of McGee for now. What outlier skills has he really shown?
Oddly enough, it's Patrick Williams that has actually shown playmaking from the high post and a pull up J. I just don't think much of him because he's also very weak laterally and just reminds me of post prime Ibaka, with a clue for passing.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:18 am    Post subject:

PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:
My issue is with the team in the top 10 that drafts one of the oldest players available with one decent year of shooting on his resume who has physical limitations on defense that will be hard to overcome, especially for a prospect who didn't display much interest on that end.


Yep. It does get to a point in the draft where you know who Toppin is and ask yourself, do I take a middling swing or guard over him?


No. I don't mind a one (possibly two) trick specialist. Obi can become a professional scorer while providing at minimum adequate defense, rim protection and passing.

That's his peak outcome on defense, imo.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:21 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:

I agree on impact but in a lot of instances it is a result of ball dominance and does not indicate their true value to a team.

In the case of Kobe the triangle, reliance on Shaq and Kobe's iso skills did not require an actual true play maker on those Laker teams.

The current dominant teams (Lakers, Bucks, Clippers, Celtics, Dallas, Denver) rely on highly skilled bigger wings, PF's or C's.

Toronto is an outlier relying on overall team strength/depth while Luka and Jokic are just outliers onto themselves.

The problem is these type of players are harder to identify and actually exist while the C Anthony's, K Lewis and T Maxey's exist every year.

I would rather take a chance on Wiseman, J McDaniels and possibly P Williams (he has grown on me) who may emerge as possible game changers. Michael Porter Jr. also falls into this category.
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I disagree about the impact of initiators due to USG. It's not directly linked to that. It's more due to the guard skill play in correlation with USG. This is part of why the value of bigmen has fallen so drastically. Lots of guys can rim run, board, swat to varying levels. They're a dime a dozen. Initiators that are 2 or 3 level scoreres? That's a guy with gravity that gets 20ppg. Can pass a little? Now it's open shots in the paint.

It's more like, the Lakers needed the triangle to make up for the lack of high rate playmaking from a point guard. Same with Chicago.

No one uses the triangle anymore because there's a wealth of talented 2 and 3 way PGs that can run PnR or even play some off ball.

The current dominant teams play big wings, as initiators. That's LeBron. That's Giannis. Kawhi developed it. Jayson Tatum in the crunch over Kemba. Luka. Jokic.

Toronto is an outlier relying on effort and execution to get the most juice out of that Orange.

I don't value MPJ. He's a 6'10" Lou Williams, and can't pass or defend. That's the kind of guy that takes the rhythm out of your team.

Jaden McDaniels is a poor decision maker.
Wiseman is a twitchy version of McGee for now. What outlier skills has he really shown?
Oddly enough, it's Patrick Williams that has actually shown playmaking from the high post and a pull up J. I just don't think much of him because he's also very weak laterally and just reminds me of post prime Ibaka, with a clue for passing.

The triangle also gummed up spacing and would get blown off the floor offensively today by dint of shot selection alone.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
PlantedTanks wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
A board worth looking at.

https://twitter.com/Dennis_TTG/status/1296079622602448897


A little too heavy on play makers and light on big men/shooters/athleticism at the top tiers for me.


That's deliberate.

The playmakers tend to make the most impact.


If measuring stats I agree on most immediate impact but I am of the belief teams should be built around skilled/versatile wings and big men.


Usually it's initiators that dictate. Wings have to be incredibly polished to have similar impact. FWIW, I consider Kobe an initiating wing for the first 3 peat. Then the responsibility got shouldered by Gasol and Odom, but Kobe still did it at POA, not Fisher.

That's why it's Donovan Mitchell, Jokic, Dame, LBJ, Luka, etc being the best guys for their respective teams. Kawhi is outlier.

As a rough (and admittedly flawed) marker, if a guy can get to a 20%+ AST% on high usage, then he's an initiator. Sometimes guys don't get there due to role or responsibility, but usually it's because they lack the skill to do so whether handle, vision, passing touch, whatever.

The amazing thing about Kawhi is that you can track his improvement as a passer year to year, but he also stepped up out of necessity on a team without a real PG - he went from a then career high 16.4% assist rate to 26.4% this season on the Clippers.

Kobe didn't breach that threshold until year four, but that also coincided with PJax coming in and NVE going out.
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