How far would the 07-08 Lakers have gone if Bynum had never gotten injured and we had never traded for Pau?
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How far would the 07-08 Lakers have gotten with a healthy Bynum but no Pau?
Championship
26%
 26%  [ 5 ]
Lost in finals
26%
 26%  [ 5 ]
Lost in WCF
10%
 10%  [ 2 ]
Lost in semis
26%
 26%  [ 5 ]
Lost in first round
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Missed playoffs
5%
 5%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 19

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:28 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
Crazy thing was the Pau trade only happened due to Bynum's injury and Mitch initially interested in trading for Mike Miller instead, so talk about a move that saved Mitch for almost a decade. Pau would probably get traded to the Bulls since that was the initial trade destination for Pau before the Lakers and the Hornets or the Spurs most likely get the number 1 seed instead and Lakers end up as a 3rd to 6th seed in the West. Also, it's likely Chris Paul wins MVP instead.

First round without Pau would end up facing the Mavericks, Suns, or Rockets, which would be a dog fight. In the 2nd round, Lakers went to 6 games against the Jazz that year, which was the same Jazz team that went to the Conference Finals in 2007, so can see the Jazz actually beating the Lakers or Lakers winning due to just Kobe going extra crazy. In the conference finals, Lakers wouldn't have homecourt against the Hornets or Spurs, who both would be favored against the Lakers and can see the team losing to either the Hornets or Spurs. If Lakers somehow win that series, they most likely get swept or lose in 5 to the Celtics decisively. The run would be similar to those LeBron playoff runs heading into the finals with the Cav's, but losing to those highly favored Warriors squads. Also, Mitch probably makes a panic type of trade and trades Odom to try to compete against the Celtics big 3 somehow.



Imagine if we'd traded Odom for Mike Miller like Mitch wanted. Our starting lineup would have been:

Fisher
Kobe
Mike Miller
Turiaf
Kwame Brown

Bench:

Farmar
Sasha
Walton
Radmanovic
DJ Mbenga

That team would have gotten destroyed in the first round.

In this scenario you would have healthy Bynum who brokeout that season. Kobe, Bynum, Miller, & Fisher would be enough to get past the first round imo, as Kobe was MVP that year and really took his game to the next level mentally & as a leader. Would take this version of the Lakers with Mike Miller added over Dirk pre-1st ring with the Mavericks & those T-Mac/Yao Rockets, but the Suns would be a really tough match-up since they would have nobody that can guard Amare & Nash. Kobe was next level that year, the game 1 vs the Spurs in the 2008 WCF might have been his most brilliant.


The Odom for Mike Miller trade was proposed after the Bynum injury-- not really sure what Mitch's rationale was. Chris Wallace then offered Pau for Kwame et. al instead-- it was his idea, not Mitch's.

Earlier in the season, I remember people on this forum proposing a Bynum and Odom for Jermaine O'Neal trade. Or trying to trade Odom for Rasheed Wallace.


I somehow forgot about this. Jaysis, were it not for the Pau trade, history would not look kindly on Mitch's tenure here. That was a horrible trade. Wth was he thinking?!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:32 pm    Post subject:

CabinCreek44 wrote:
Thanks for posting that npz, I was at that game. A playoff type atmosphere that evening to be sure.

I recall massive media buzz for Chris Paul as the MVP that season which would have been absurd. He’s a great player but come on. Kobe was easily the best player in the league at that point and Paul has always been just good enough to lose with imo.

Kobe showed everybody what was what that night.


Damn, that's a helluva game to go to personally. Your boys Joel and Stu seemed to even get along that night. The infrequently seen LG poster Birmingham went to both Kobe's 61 pt gm at MSG and his final game ever and that paisano CMB went to effin Gm7 2000. NPZ and CMB were both in the crib on 11/7/97, come to find out. That was the game Van Exel launched the ball at midcourt and Shaq donked it with one hand, sh looked like it was sailing over the glass.

The bastidges blocked it already. They own the footage, so that gives them the GALL to claim it's theirs. Some 08 stuff they block instantly, other stuff says for years. Pau's first game for ex. That's a no-go. This one I shoulda known because of the Kobe relevance, but I did it for Superboy anyway and he got to it in the nick.

I don't remember the Hornets vying for the top seed ever. I remembered CP, but not that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:05 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
JPaulK0n wrote:
Crazy thing was the Pau trade only happened due to Bynum's injury and Mitch initially interested in trading for Mike Miller instead, so talk about a move that saved Mitch for almost a decade. Pau would probably get traded to the Bulls since that was the initial trade destination for Pau before the Lakers and the Hornets or the Spurs most likely get the number 1 seed instead and Lakers end up as a 3rd to 6th seed in the West. Also, it's likely Chris Paul wins MVP instead.

First round without Pau would end up facing the Mavericks, Suns, or Rockets, which would be a dog fight. In the 2nd round, Lakers went to 6 games against the Jazz that year, which was the same Jazz team that went to the Conference Finals in 2007, so can see the Jazz actually beating the Lakers or Lakers winning due to just Kobe going extra crazy. In the conference finals, Lakers wouldn't have homecourt against the Hornets or Spurs, who both would be favored against the Lakers and can see the team losing to either the Hornets or Spurs. If Lakers somehow win that series, they most likely get swept or lose in 5 to the Celtics decisively. The run would be similar to those LeBron playoff runs heading into the finals with the Cav's, but losing to those highly favored Warriors squads. Also, Mitch probably makes a panic type of trade and trades Odom to try to compete against the Celtics big 3 somehow.



Imagine if we'd traded Odom for Mike Miller like Mitch wanted. Our starting lineup would have been:

Fisher
Kobe
Mike Miller
Turiaf
Kwame Brown

Bench:

Farmar
Sasha
Walton
Radmanovic
DJ Mbenga

That team would have gotten destroyed in the first round.

In this scenario you would have healthy Bynum who brokeout that season. Kobe, Bynum, Miller, & Fisher would be enough to get past the first round imo, as Kobe was MVP that year and really took his game to the next level mentally & as a leader. Would take this version of the Lakers with Mike Miller added over Dirk pre-1st ring with the Mavericks & those T-Mac/Yao Rockets, but the Suns would be a really tough match-up since they would have nobody that can guard Amare & Nash. Kobe was next level that year, the game 1 vs the Spurs in the 2008 WCF might have been his most brilliant.


The Odom for Mike Miller trade was proposed after the Bynum injury-- not really sure what Mitch's rationale was. Chris Wallace then offered Pau for Kwame et. al instead-- it was his idea, not Mitch's.

Earlier in the season, I remember people on this forum proposing a Bynum and Odom for Jermaine O'Neal trade. Or trying to trade Odom for Rasheed Wallace.


I somehow forgot about this. Jaysis, were it not for the Pau trade, history would not look kindly on Mitch's tenure here. That was a horrible trade. Wth was he thinking?!


My theory is that Mitch's last few years here are a better indicator of what kind of GM he was than the championship years. The moves that he is celebrated for-- Pau and Payton/Malone-- were complete no-brainers and had nothing to do with him.

Others (such as signing Artest over Ariza) and trading for Dwight turned out to be bad moves.

His best move (meaning one that can be attributed to him directly and not the other party, and one that wasn't also obvious) was trading Cook/Evans for Ariza.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:19 am    Post subject:

How good do you guys think Bynum would have been if he didn’t have injury issues?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:53 am    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
Thanks for posting that npz, I was at that game. A playoff type atmosphere that evening to be sure.

I recall massive media buzz for Chris Paul as the MVP that season which would have been absurd. He’s a great player but come on. Kobe was easily the best player in the league at that point and Paul has always been just good enough to lose with imo.

Kobe showed everybody what was what that night.


Damn, that's a helluva game to go to personally. Your boys Joel and Stu seemed to even get along that night. The infrequently seen LG poster Birmingham went to both Kobe's 61 pt gm at MSG and his final game ever and that paisano CMB went to effin Gm7 2000. NPZ and CMB were both in the crib on 11/7/97, come to find out. That was the game Van Exel launched the ball at midcourt and Shaq donked it with one hand, sh looked like it was sailing over the glass.

The bastidges blocked it already. They own the footage, so that gives them the GALL to claim it's theirs. Some 08 stuff they block instantly, other stuff says for years. Pau's first game for ex. That's a no-go. This one I shoulda known because of the Kobe relevance, but I did it for Superboy anyway and he got to it in the nick.

I don't remember the Hornets vying for the top seed ever. I remembered CP, but not that.


You guys talking about this game?

What a great game. sealed KB's mvp, imo. We ran them out the building before they came back, which was not an infrequent problem from 08-10, as anyone who experienced the pain of that one Game 4 will testify.

that Hornets team was awesome. We still beat them if they get past the Spurs, I think, but it probably goes 6, maybe 7. They get skipped over due to their playoff collapse and later failiures (iirc, they'd lose next year to Denver in round 1, including by near 60 in one game). but for that 1 year, they almost had "it".
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:11 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
How good do you guys think Bynum would have been if he didn’t have injury issues?


Then you are talking about the athletic version 2007-2008 combined with the post talent of 2011-2012. That my friends is a very very high ceiling....like MVP ceiling. Its something we never got to see. That Bynum blows someone like Pau out of the water and makes Pau look like a scrub. Amare putting up numbers during that time.....Bynum would make him look like a scrub. Not even peak Dwight would have touched him. You guys remember what Bynum did to guys like Marc Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and Amare? And this was when he was either heavily compromised in his athletic potential or was still a young baby. What Bynum could have been should be the biggest what if for Lakers Nation because the only 2 people I have seen wear a Lakers uniform in the past 25 years that could surpass Bynum's potential are Shaq and Kobe. Ok 3 if u include Bron. AD....no. Bynum would eat up AD for lunch down low and spit him out.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:25 pm    Post subject:

x75274 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
How good do you guys think Bynum would have been if he didn’t have injury issues?


Then you are talking about the athletic version 2007-2008 combined with the post talent of 2011-2012. That my friends is a very very high ceiling....like MVP ceiling. Its something we never got to see. That Bynum blows someone like Pau out of the water and makes Pau look like a scrub. Amare putting up numbers during that time.....Bynum would make him look like a scrub. Not even peak Dwight would have touched him. You guys remember what Bynum did to guys like Marc Gasol, DeAndre Jordan, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and Amare? And this was when he was either heavily compromised in his athletic potential or was still a young baby. What Bynum could have been should be the biggest what if for Lakers Nation because the only 2 people I have seen wear a Lakers uniform in the past 25 years that could surpass Bynum's potential are Shaq and Kobe. Ok 3 if u include Bron. AD....no. Bynum would eat up AD for lunch down low and spit him out.


He would still be our franchise player to this day. He’s only 32 and would still be in his prime.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:27 pm    Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
Thanks for posting that npz, I was at that game. A playoff type atmosphere that evening to be sure.

I recall massive media buzz for Chris Paul as the MVP that season which would have been absurd. He’s a great player but come on. Kobe was easily the best player in the league at that point and Paul has always been just good enough to lose with imo.

Kobe showed everybody what was what that night.


Damn, that's a helluva game to go to personally. Your boys Joel and Stu seemed to even get along that night. The infrequently seen LG poster Birmingham went to both Kobe's 61 pt gm at MSG and his final game ever and that paisano CMB went to effin Gm7 2000. NPZ and CMB were both in the crib on 11/7/97, come to find out. That was the game Van Exel launched the ball at midcourt and Shaq donked it with one hand, sh looked like it was sailing over the glass.

The bastidges blocked it already. They own the footage, so that gives them the GALL to claim it's theirs. Some 08 stuff they block instantly, other stuff says for years. Pau's first game for ex. That's a no-go. This one I shoulda known because of the Kobe relevance, but I did it for Superboy anyway and he got to it in the nick.

I don't remember the Hornets vying for the top seed ever. I remembered CP, but not that.


You guys talking about this game?

What a great game. sealed KB's mvp, imo. We ran them out the building before they came back, which was not an infrequent problem from 08-10, as anyone who experienced the pain of that one Game 4 will testify.

that Hornets team was awesome. We still beat them if they get past the Spurs, I think, but it probably goes 6, maybe 7. They get skipped over due to their playoff collapse and later failiures (iirc, they'd lose next year to Denver in round 1, including by near 60 in one game). but for that 1 year, they almost had "it".


I remember a poster on here speculating that Javaris Crittenton could develop into a bigger, more explosive version of Chris Paul during that season.

I thought Chris Paul would continue to improve and end up as the #2 PG of all time behind Magic. But he ended up more or less peaking during that season due to a later knee injury.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:07 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Cutheon wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
Thanks for posting that npz, I was at that game. A playoff type atmosphere that evening to be sure.

I recall massive media buzz for Chris Paul as the MVP that season which would have been absurd. He’s a great player but come on. Kobe was easily the best player in the league at that point and Paul has always been just good enough to lose with imo.

Kobe showed everybody what was what that night.


Damn, that's a helluva game to go to personally. Your boys Joel and Stu seemed to even get along that night. The infrequently seen LG poster Birmingham went to both Kobe's 61 pt gm at MSG and his final game ever and that paisano CMB went to effin Gm7 2000. NPZ and CMB were both in the crib on 11/7/97, come to find out. That was the game Van Exel launched the ball at midcourt and Shaq donked it with one hand, sh looked like it was sailing over the glass.

The bastidges blocked it already. They own the footage, so that gives them the GALL to claim it's theirs. Some 08 stuff they block instantly, other stuff says for years. Pau's first game for ex. That's a no-go. This one I shoulda known because of the Kobe relevance, but I did it for Superboy anyway and he got to it in the nick.

I don't remember the Hornets vying for the top seed ever. I remembered CP, but not that.


You guys talking about this game?

What a great game. sealed KB's mvp, imo. We ran them out the building before they came back, which was not an infrequent problem from 08-10, as anyone who experienced the pain of that one Game 4 will testify.

that Hornets team was awesome. We still beat them if they get past the Spurs, I think, but it probably goes 6, maybe 7. They get skipped over due to their playoff collapse and later failiures (iirc, they'd lose next year to Denver in round 1, including by near 60 in one game). but for that 1 year, they almost had "it".


I remember a poster on here speculating that Javaris Crittenton could develop into a bigger, more explosive version of Chris Paul during that season.

I thought Chris Paul would continue to improve and end up as the #2 PG of all time behind Magic. But he ended up more or less peaking during that season due to a later knee injury.


Javaris was a raw talent who with the right tutelage could have been special. But he had a ton of flaws....starting with that jumper of his. His shot trajectory and form on his jumper (that elbow jutting outwards) was just bad....that thing would have needed to be completely overhauled. Then he would have needed a few years to be able to really play the point. What could he have been had he been able to put everything together? Maybe a B version of the 1995 NBA first teamer Anfernee Hardaway or B version of 2011 MVP Derrick Rose. This would equate to borderline all star quality
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:16 pm    Post subject:

Easy championship!!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:24 pm    Post subject:

x75274 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Cutheon wrote:
non-player zealot wrote:
CabinCreek44 wrote:
Thanks for posting that npz, I was at that game. A playoff type atmosphere that evening to be sure.

I recall massive media buzz for Chris Paul as the MVP that season which would have been absurd. He’s a great player but come on. Kobe was easily the best player in the league at that point and Paul has always been just good enough to lose with imo.

Kobe showed everybody what was what that night.


Damn, that's a helluva game to go to personally. Your boys Joel and Stu seemed to even get along that night. The infrequently seen LG poster Birmingham went to both Kobe's 61 pt gm at MSG and his final game ever and that paisano CMB went to effin Gm7 2000. NPZ and CMB were both in the crib on 11/7/97, come to find out. That was the game Van Exel launched the ball at midcourt and Shaq donked it with one hand, sh looked like it was sailing over the glass.

The bastidges blocked it already. They own the footage, so that gives them the GALL to claim it's theirs. Some 08 stuff they block instantly, other stuff says for years. Pau's first game for ex. That's a no-go. This one I shoulda known because of the Kobe relevance, but I did it for Superboy anyway and he got to it in the nick.

I don't remember the Hornets vying for the top seed ever. I remembered CP, but not that.


You guys talking about this game?

What a great game. sealed KB's mvp, imo. We ran them out the building before they came back, which was not an infrequent problem from 08-10, as anyone who experienced the pain of that one Game 4 will testify.

that Hornets team was awesome. We still beat them if they get past the Spurs, I think, but it probably goes 6, maybe 7. They get skipped over due to their playoff collapse and later failiures (iirc, they'd lose next year to Denver in round 1, including by near 60 in one game). but for that 1 year, they almost had "it".


I remember a poster on here speculating that Javaris Crittenton could develop into a bigger, more explosive version of Chris Paul during that season.

I thought Chris Paul would continue to improve and end up as the #2 PG of all time behind Magic. But he ended up more or less peaking during that season due to a later knee injury.


Javaris was a raw talent who with the right tutelage could have been special. But he had a ton of flaws....starting with that jumper of his. His shot trajectory and form on his jumper (that elbow jutting outwards) was just bad....that thing would have needed to be completely overhauled. Then he would have needed a few years to be able to really play the point. What could he have been had he been able to put everything together? Maybe a B version of the 1995 NBA first teamer Anfernee Hardaway or B version of 2011 MVP Derrick Rose. This would equate to borderline all star quality


His best trait was his killer instinct.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: How far would the 07-08 Lakers have gone if Bynum had never gotten injured and we had never traded for Pau?

venturalakersfan wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
Runway8 wrote:

If that injury was the only reason we traded for Pau, then it was a blessing in disguise. As we found out later in his career, he didn't have the greatest passion for the game. I think he rather build computers or something? LOL! Putting all our eggs in the Bynum basket would have been a big mistake.


It wasn’t the only reason. Kobe and Dr. Buss met Pau in Barcelona in the summer of 2007. Pau made his trade demand in 2006. It seemed like tampering to me. It might be why Logo left Memphis.


The Lakers never asked for Pau, he wasn’t Mitch’s target.


As I recall, the Lakers had inquired about Pau in 2006, but the talks stalled. The reports initially said that Dr. Buss reached back out to Heisley in 2007 and basically they closed the deal without their respective GMs. I'm not sure if their talking started pre or post Bynum injury, but it was basically an owner-to-owner transaction.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:37 pm    Post subject:

The idea that the Lakers wouldn't have made a run at Pau if Bynum hadn't gotten injured is silly. If you can add a star of that magnitude for what it cost, you do that every time.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:00 pm    Post subject:

Back to the original topic. With the 07-08 Bynum and no Pau, I really believe we would have lost at the same exact place we ended up losing but the battles would have been a lot tougher. We dont destroy the Nuggets as easily as we did in the first round and probably end the Jazz in 7 if not get outright upset by them in 7. Pau's seemingly annual domination of Boozer is key here especially when the Jazz were at their strongest which was this year. Ironically I see Bynum and no Pau being the easiest matchup in the WCF against the Spurs. Bynum usually always plays well against his idol Duncan and nobody on the Spurs ever matched up well with Bynum at all (that 30 rebound game is a microcosm of.the lack of size the Spurs had against Bynum). They would have needed someone with the strength, length and intelligence of Big Dave to be able to contain the young very early 20s Bynum. Celtics though would be a whole different animal. The young Bynum even as the featured big man, would have struggled with that Celtics team. We saw glimpses of it when the Celtics easily beat us in both regular season games and Perkins was handling that version of Bynum. Bynum would have suffered the same problem Pau did in that finals as while he is physically more gifted and stronger than Pau, he would be even less mentally ready for that finals than Pau was.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:32 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
The idea that the Lakers wouldn't have made a run at Pau if Bynum hadn't gotten injured is silly. If you can add a star of that magnitude for what it cost, you do that every time.

Agreed. I was disappointed when reports came out that if Bynum had been healthy, the Lakers might not have made a move for Pau. I couldn’t find anything other than this piece:

Quote:

Had Bynum never been injured, the Lakers might not have felt the need to make the trade. Gasol gave the Lakers a much-needed second option behind Kobe Bryant and lifted them into championship contention.

I don’t know if we would have gotten here,” Kupchak said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/sports/basketball/08nba.html


I remember reading other articles of the time that affirmed this thought. If this is what is being implied, then it does make me think less of Mitch as a GM (even pre-Deng/Mozgov)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:30 pm    Post subject:

x75274 wrote:
Back to the original topic. With the 07-08 Bynum and no Pau, I really believe we would have lost at the same exact place we ended up losing but the battles would have been a lot tougher. We dont destroy the Nuggets as easily as we did in the first round and probably end the Jazz in 7 if not get outright upset by them in 7. Pau's seemingly annual domination of Boozer is key here especially when the Jazz were at their strongest which was this year. Ironically I see Bynum and no Pau being the easiest matchup in the WCF against the Spurs. Bynum usually always plays well against his idol Duncan and nobody on the Spurs ever matched up well with Bynum at all (that 30 rebound game is a microcosm of.the lack of size the Spurs had against Bynum). They would have needed someone with the strength, length and intelligence of Big Dave to be able to contain the young very early 20s Bynum. Celtics though would be a whole different animal. The young Bynum even as the featured big man, would have struggled with that Celtics team. We saw glimpses of it when the Celtics easily beat us in both regular season games and Perkins was handling that version of Bynum. Bynum would have suffered the same problem Pau did in that finals as while he is physically more gifted and stronger than Pau, he would be even less mentally ready for that finals than Pau was.


Why wasn’t a top 10 player all time in Duncan able to stop Bynum, a relative nobody? Duncan was really a center too.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:10 am    Post subject:

I don't think there's any way Mitch would have passed on the Gasol trade even without the Bynum injury. Mitch was a very cautious GM, with the exception of free agency (where he tended to overpay). He generally wanted deals slanted in his favor, but that trade was a no brainer. What was it Crittenton, M. Gasol (still in Europe, not that highly touted), Aaron McKie's corpse and two picks for an All-Star. There's no way they pass up on it.

Bynum going down and the team struggling after he went down, after Kobe had demanded a trade the previous Summer, they really had to make a move after Bynum got hurt. So that got them actively looking, where maybe they wouldn't have been before, they did after all start that season 26-12. But I think even at that point you are getting an All-Star for three guys who barely played. You can't pass on it.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:34 am    Post subject:

Wow, first I have heard that Mitch was offering Odom for Miller. I would be shocked if Phil would even be on board with that, even though Miller at the time was an excellent outside shooter, the Lakers needed a player that could defend, board and do some of the things Odom was as they lacked a true point guard. Mike would not fill in many of those roles. It would have been a huge blunder had that deal gone through. Never heard of it at the time, my memory serves me recalling Mitch showing interest in Miller, not for Odom, just to add more talent. Then Wallace telling Mitch Pau was available.

I would have guessed that Miller was asked in return for space cadet. If you all remember who space cadet was.
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danzag
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:17 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
How good do you guys think Bynum would have been if he didn’t have injury issues?


Best big man in the league for the last 10 years, easily.
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