College Athlete Compensation

 
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:44 pm    Post subject: College Athlete Compensation

I find this Jalen Green situation interesting. The media and many "others" are celebrating it as a FU to the NCAA....because it became cool to hate on the NCAA in recent years. (I will never understand how fans compartmentalize their favorite major college program separate from the NCAA....the schools are the NCAA!) I do not see it that way at all....I think it is a big win for the NCAA in demonstrating that nobody is forced to accept a NCAA governed sports scholarship, especially in basketball. The reason I find it interesting is because I think it will go a long way in proving how much financial benefit an elite athlete gets from playing at an elite program. The common one is Zion, because everyone in hindsight views Zion's value after playing at Duke the same as it was before he played at Duke. That perception is simply false.

Zion had social media niche fame as a teenager, but he was ranked the 4th or 5th best Senior High School recruit in the country. He has no major value to Nike or any other potential endorsement deal before Duke. Sure someone would have paid him something as an upside play, but nothing like the the money he received after playing at Duke for one season....not even close. Putting on that Blue and White and playing in front of a national audience made him 100's of Millions in endorsements he has and will continue to get early in his NBA career. Simply put, Madison Avenue is not very interested in an 18 year old Zion in a cotton tank top, but an 18 year old Zion in a Duke jersey begins to be worth millions of dollars.

The point is while Green is ranked as a higher recruit than Zion was as a high school player, I think he will earn a fraction of the money that Zion earned within the first year of being in the NBA (when Green enters the NBA). This is important because when we have the discussions about elite college players deserving to get paid, the value that Duke, UK, UNC, UCLA or even a WVU program brings to the table is ignored. Advocates to pay players simply assign that directly to the player.....but the player did not earn that part. In the case of Zion, the value that "Duke" brought to the table was earned by Coach K, the Cameron Crazies, Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, JJ Redick, etc., and while Zion adds to that value, he also gets financially rewarded when he becomes a pro. If Zion chose to play college basketball at Cal State Fullerton, he loses millions early on in his basketball career in the NBA. All of that value...the national television....the 24/7 media...the nationwide fans mostly was value created by Duke....and is included in all that he received as a student athlete while on scholarship. So for the 13th guy on the bench at Duke, he received a college education, room and board, food and a lifetime social/professional network (which is extremely valuable with Duke Basketball).....and Zion receives all of that and the massive financial multiplier that Duke provides for an elite player. It must be included in the discussion and benefit calculation.
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:18 am    Post subject:

Zion was the most marketable rookie since Lebron (who didnt need Duke to get him on tv), so he's not the typical elite ranked player to enter the NBA.

RJ Barett was the #1 ranked high school player. He went to Duke. He will not earn as much money as Zion this year or probably his entire career. If Jalen Green earns as much as RJ Barett, then we will see if skipping college was worth more. Of course, he will have already earned $500,000, potentially, in the G League.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Zion was the most marketable rookie since Lebron (who didnt need Duke to get him on tv), so he's not the typical elite ranked player to enter the NBA.

RJ Barett was the #1 ranked high school player. He went to Duke. He will not earn as much money as Zion this year or probably his entire career. If Jalen Green earns as much as RJ Barett, then we will see if skipping college was worth more. Of course, he will have already earned $500,000, potentially, in the G League.


And more from sponsorships
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:30 am    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Zion was the most marketable rookie since Lebron (who didnt need Duke to get him on tv), so he's not the typical elite ranked player to enter the NBA.

RJ Barett was the #1 ranked high school player. He went to Duke. He will not earn as much money as Zion this year or probably his entire career. If Jalen Green earns as much as RJ Barett, then we will see if skipping college was worth more. Of course, he will have already earned $500,000, potentially, in the G League.


And more from sponsorships
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:43 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Zion was the most marketable rookie since Lebron (who didnt need Duke to get him on tv), so he's not the typical elite ranked player to enter the NBA.

RJ Barett was the #1 ranked high school player. He went to Duke. He will not earn as much money as Zion this year or probably his entire career. If Jalen Green earns as much as RJ Barett, then we will see if skipping college was worth more. Of course, he will have already earned $500,000, potentially, in the G League.


And more from sponsorships


Yep. And really, if the premise is that that the benefit of going to college is that the NCAA offers exposure for the athletes, through television deals, then it's highlighting exactly the reason it's considered exploitative. They reap the tangible, realized earnings immediately, while the athletes still have to perform at a high enough level to go on to the next level and earn money for future labor.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:54 am    Post subject:

The NCAA offers two, simultaneous arguments:

That there is a good faith “amateur” (Rigged) program where the “participants” (Product) receive a generous (pittance compared to revenue and heavily regulated) scholarship in exchange for feeding a huge business that pays coaches millions and everyone but the players feeds at a big trough of money.

That this large amount of money from the big programs pays for all the other programs. Try that in any other negotiation with talent. And that’s the rub. They’ve used the “student athlete” canard to create a system that pays all kinds of things other than the athlete.
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:31 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Zion was the most marketable rookie since Lebron (who didnt need Duke to get him on tv), so he's not the typical elite ranked player to enter the NBA.

RJ Barett was the #1 ranked high school player. He went to Duke. He will not earn as much money as Zion this year or probably his entire career. If Jalen Green earns as much as RJ Barett, then we will see if skipping college was worth more. Of course, he will have already earned $500,000, potentially, in the G League.


not talking about rookie....talking about fresh out of high school. Do not mean to come off as argumentative, but your suggestion that Zion as an 18 year old high school student was viewed as even a fraction of the marketability of an 18 year old high school student Lebron, you are trafficking in extreme revisionist history. Not only RJ Barrett, but Cam Reddish was viewed as a better high school prospect than Zion. Zion arrived at Duke as the 3rd best Duke recruit in that class and had a sizable social media following because of basically being seen as an "overweight" guy that had crazy hops. His national marketability at that point was near nothing. Nassir Little would have got similar deals as Zion at that point.

The first time whispers began about Zion actually being the better Freshman on that Duke roster was that summer when Duke did that Canadian tour that was televised on ESPN because it was Duke and RJ Barrett was playing in Canada. Only after being plastered across ESPN 2-3 times a week which resulted in the media madness that led to Zion being the marketing monster that he was on the night of the draft.

If Zion turns pro at 18, without Duke and all that it brought to the table, he is getting smaller deals than RJ Barrett. Nike is giving him their standard lottery deal as an upside play.


Last edited by adkindo on Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:34 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
The NCAA offers two, simultaneous arguments:

That there is a good faith “amateur” (Rigged) program where the “participants” (Product) receive a generous (pittance compared to revenue and heavily regulated) scholarship in exchange for feeding a huge business that pays coaches millions and everyone but the players feeds at a big trough of money.

That this large amount of money from the big programs pays for all the other programs. Try that in any other negotiation with talent. And that’s the rub. They’ve used the “student athlete” canard to create a system that pays all kinds of things other than the athlete.


Football drives most of the revenue....even at "basketball schools". Basketball pays for itself and is mostly profitable.....but it is not paying the bill for all of the others sports.....Football usually covers most of that bill.
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:03 pm    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Zion was the most marketable rookie since Lebron (who didnt need Duke to get him on tv), so he's not the typical elite ranked player to enter the NBA.

RJ Barett was the #1 ranked high school player. He went to Duke. He will not earn as much money as Zion this year or probably his entire career. If Jalen Green earns as much as RJ Barett, then we will see if skipping college was worth more. Of course, he will have already earned $500,000, potentially, in the G League.


not talking about rookie....talking about fresh out of high school. Do not mean to come off as argumentative, but your suggestion that Zion as an 18 year old high school student was viewed as even a fraction of the marketability of an 18 year old high school student Lebron, you are trafficking in extreme revisionist history. Not only RJ Barrett, but Cam Reddish was viewed as a better high school prospect than Zion. Zion arrived at Duke as the 3rd best Duke recruit in that class and had a sizable social media following because of basically being seen as an "overweight" guy that had crazy hops. His national marketability at that point was near nothing. Nassir Little would have got similar deals as Zion at that point.

The first time whispers began about Zion actually being the better Freshman on that Duke roster was that summer when Duke did that Canadian tour that was televised on ESPN because it was Duke and RJ Barrett was playing in Canada. Only after being plastered across ESPN 2-3 times a week which resulted in the media madness that led to Zion being the marketing monster that he was on the night of the draft.

If Zion turns pro at 18, without Duke and all that it brought to the table, he is getting smaller deals than RJ Barrett. Nike is giving him their standard lottery deal as an upside play.


Well, you brought up the financial benefits Zion received after going to Duke, so you're indeed talking about him being a rookie.

Had Zion gone directly to the G League it would have been bigger news than Green, since he already had minor Youtube fame and was a top 3 recruit. So he would definitely have gotten the same contract as Green and he would have still balled out, dunking and blocking shots in the G League.

But, again, using Zion as the standard example isn't relevant. He and Lebron are the only guys I can remember who got massive shoe deals before playing a game in the NBA. It's not all about getting large contracts right out of college. Look how many current NBA All-Stars, who make hundred's of millions of dollars, never went to college or didn't play for a elite college school. Kawhi, Luka, Harden, Jokic,Sabonis, Siakam, Middelton, Golbert... all have massive contracts and weren't household names prior to being drafted.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 5:33 pm    Post subject:

Duke didn't make Zion popular. Obama wasn't going to a Duke game to watch Tre Jones. I wonder how much money Zion brought to Duke.

Zion would've been Zion, anywhere. Terrible example.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:33 pm    Post subject:

akk7 wrote:
Duke didn't make Zion popular. Obama wasn't going to a Duke game to watch Tre Jones. I wonder how much money Zion brought to Duke.

Zion would've been Zion, anywhere. Terrible example.


I do not even understand your post. How many AAU games of Zions did Obama go watch? High school games? I thought so.

Also, how do you think Zion brought money directly to Duke? Cameron Indoor was sold out long before Zion, and will be sold out long after. I could have taken Zions roster spot, and it is still a sell out. The television contracts were in place before Zion, and are still in effect for 3 more years. Duke's basketball had no spike in revenue while Zion was playing there....so I am wondering how exactly Zion made additional money for Duke?
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:40 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
adkindo wrote:
vanexelent wrote:
Zion was the most marketable rookie since Lebron (who didnt need Duke to get him on tv), so he's not the typical elite ranked player to enter the NBA.

RJ Barett was the #1 ranked high school player. He went to Duke. He will not earn as much money as Zion this year or probably his entire career. If Jalen Green earns as much as RJ Barett, then we will see if skipping college was worth more. Of course, he will have already earned $500,000, potentially, in the G League.


not talking about rookie....talking about fresh out of high school. Do not mean to come off as argumentative, but your suggestion that Zion as an 18 year old high school student was viewed as even a fraction of the marketability of an 18 year old high school student Lebron, you are trafficking in extreme revisionist history. Not only RJ Barrett, but Cam Reddish was viewed as a better high school prospect than Zion. Zion arrived at Duke as the 3rd best Duke recruit in that class and had a sizable social media following because of basically being seen as an "overweight" guy that had crazy hops. His national marketability at that point was near nothing. Nassir Little would have got similar deals as Zion at that point.

The first time whispers began about Zion actually being the better Freshman on that Duke roster was that summer when Duke did that Canadian tour that was televised on ESPN because it was Duke and RJ Barrett was playing in Canada. Only after being plastered across ESPN 2-3 times a week which resulted in the media madness that led to Zion being the marketing monster that he was on the night of the draft.

If Zion turns pro at 18, without Duke and all that it brought to the table, he is getting smaller deals than RJ Barrett. Nike is giving him their standard lottery deal as an upside play.


Well, you brought up the financial benefits Zion received after going to Duke, so you're indeed talking about him being a rookie.

Had Zion gone directly to the G League it would have been bigger news than Green, since he already had minor Youtube fame and was a top 3 recruit. So he would definitely have gotten the same contract as Green and he would have still balled out, dunking and blocking shots in the G League.

But, again, using Zion as the standard example isn't relevant. He and Lebron are the only guys I can remember who got massive shoe deals before playing a game in the NBA. It's not all about getting large contracts right out of college. Look how many current NBA All-Stars, who make hundred's of millions of dollars, never went to college or didn't play for a elite college school. Kawhi, Luka, Harden, Jokic,Sabonis, Siakam, Middelton, Golbert... all have massive contracts and weren't household names prior to being drafted.


Zion was actually ranked #5 in the nation in the 247 Composite...behind Barrett, Reddish, Little and Bol Bol. He likely would get a similar contract as Green in the G League....and even if he balled out, the same endorsements likely would not have been there when he became a pro which is the entire point.

Lebron and Zion is apples and oranges.....Zion was not Lebron in high school, not even close which is again my point. Lebron was able to get that type of money from high school alone.....no way Zion gets anything close out of high school....but he did after a year at Duke.

If you have 23 minutes, take a listen to this podcast which I just listened to after out early discussion. Parrish and Norlander are all about college players getting paid, but point out that Zion likely earned an additional $75 Million from his year at Duke.....and they do not think Greens path will provide anything close.

4/16 episode
https://www.cbssports.com/podcasts/eye-on-college-basketball/
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vanexelent
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:49 am    Post subject:

RJ Barett didnt get Zion endorsement money. How come? He was the #1 HS prospect, went to Duke, had national exposure. All the conditions of Zion-level financial success were met, but he's not as financially successful. Why?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:34 am    Post subject:

Hype
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:38 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
RJ Barett didnt get Zion endorsement money. How come? He was the #1 HS prospect, went to Duke, had national exposure. All the conditions of Zion-level financial success were met, but he's not as financially successful. Why?


because Zion proved to be a much more secure bet to be a star at Duke. Duke and/or college basketball is just the stage for exposure.....it is still up to the athlete to take advantage of it. That said, Barrett still signed millions of dollars worth of contracts post Duke even before he was drafted.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:00 am    Post subject:

Well Green is the first top prospect to go to the G league instead of college. He is already famous. He will get a lot of media coverage as long as he performs to his level. His games will be televised often. I think endorsements will line up for him.
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:29 am    Post subject:

aprevo15 wrote:
Well Green is the first top prospect to go to the G league instead of college. He is already famous. He will get a lot of media coverage as long as he performs to his level. His games will be televised often. I think endorsements will line up for him.


and I know there is a chance you are correct.....that is what I will find interesting. Also, if Green does not fair well financially if he plays well, it will not be a complete "told you so" from me.....it may take a while for this path the mature/develop.....it may be the 3rd or 6th player that truly breaks through to make it a better option. Either way, I actually hope Green does get the money because I want a legit option outside of the NCAA.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:15 pm    Post subject:

Not directly related....but it appears that the streaming services will be involved in the next round of college television contracts. It was reported that the PAC12 has already had some introductory conversations with Apple TV. The PAC12 wanted Apple to discuss 3rd Tier rights (excess inventory)....but Apple made it clear they are interested in Primary rights (ESPN/Fox).
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:34 pm    Post subject:

aprevo15 wrote:
Well Green is the first top prospect to go to the G league instead of college. He is already famous. He will get a lot of media coverage as long as he performs to his level. His games will be televised often. I think endorsements will line up for him.


https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-g-league-considering-using-mamba-sports-academy-for-select-team-175718524.html

Will be an interesting experiment thats for sure. Also he gets to leverage the extra attention in playing in the same media market as the Lakers.
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