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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:08 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
eddiejonze wrote:
Bernie is not the front runner yet, don't know why that is so hard to understand.


This is true. As we are constantly reminded, the DNC is perfectly within their legal rights to burn the ballots. As long as that remains, he's the underdog.


Because if he ends up not winning the nomination, it will only be because it was rigged against him . . . right?


Not necessarily, maybe a candidate will beat him fairly on delegates. That doesn't seem statistically likely, but if it's decided on super delegates who Bloomberg purchased then yes.


So if no one gets the majority going into the convention, and another candidate gets the majority of normal delegates, you're OK if they didn't have as many as Bernie going in?


No. If he walks into the convention with a plurality of delegates he should be the nominee.

Honestly, who still believes Pete, Warren, and Klobuchar are viable options at this point? It should be obvious, especially to these highly educated voters, what the choice is.


This is the part I don’t understand. The rules are that you need a majority to win. So if you don’t have a majority, they should just give it to you? And all while talking about superdelegates and all being a rigged system? But we should rig it for the guy who got a minority of the votes even if the other delegates came from more moderate candidates?

Would you accept that in reverse? If Biden had thirty percent of the delegates and Bloomberg ten (using round numbers), Bernie 25, Warren 20, and Steyer 15, and on the second ballot most of Steyer and Warren’s delegates went to Bernie, because he represented their constituents, you wouldn’t consider that a proper democratic result? I would.


I think the flaw in this argument is that you're assuming people are voting based on ideology. Most do not. Biden's voters second choice, according to Morning Consult, last I checked, was Bernie. And the you have some Klobuchar supporters who's next choice is Warren, and vice versa, because they're voting on gender. It makes no ideological sense.

But if you want to go that route it should be on the voting groups to get their (bleep) together and realize what they're doing. I think progressives did that, which is why they consolidated around Bernie. The fact that these moderates or unengaged can not is their fault. The choice should be very clear for them at this point. It's Biden.

And let's not pretend like the super delegates are some kind of caucus system. They're lobbyists and insiders. Bloomberg probably owns most of them at this point. Bernie likely doesn't have any. How in the world is that considered a fair or democratic fight?


So, and I know this is where I become impossible, to get back to the point we were actually debating, you think that if no one has the majority and they have to go to a second vote, the only democratic thing to do is to go for the leading vote getter? And why would there be a second vote in the first place?
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:10 am    Post subject:

Btw, even though Clinton had the win without needing superdelegates, Bernie’s people asked them to overturn that and go with him. So it seems the go with the most vote thing is not only undemocratic, it’s also situational.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:41 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
So, and I know this is where I become impossible, to get back to the point we were actually debating, you think that if no one has the majority and they have to go to a second vote, the only democratic thing to do is to go for the leading vote getter? And why would there be a second vote in the first place?


It would be the most democratic thing to go with the leading popular vote getter because of the reasons I explained. How far ahead of the pack he actually is would probably make the difference for me. As long as the super delegates aren't directly tainting it I could stomach it.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:48 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Btw, even though Clinton had the win without needing superdelegates, Bernie’s people asked them to overturn that and go with him. So it seems the go with the most vote thing is not only undemocratic, it’s also situational.


Yeah, it's the eternal sin he will never live down. I think the "rigged" part of that election that most progressives are referring to was the fact that Hillary was essentially running the DNC while it was claiming to be "neutral". I never really get into this. It seems it's the winning side's greivance more than anyone's here.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:03 am    Post subject:

Man, Reagan was younger than Biden, Sanders, and Bloomberg when he finished his second term.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:53 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Man, Reagan was younger than Biden, Sanders, and Bloomberg when he finished his second term.


Was just thinking this morning about "What does Sanders have to gain, personally, from becoming President?

A Jewish man who stands up to Israel seems like something the world could use more of.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:10 am    Post subject:

This is generally the problem I have with Sanders voters/fans/campaign - accuse opposing candidate of something, then say it's "not fair" to receive same accusation.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/19/politics/bernie-sanders-health-records-cnntv/index.html

It's nuts, how can you view this any other way than Sanders and his supporters are like Drumpf and his cult?!
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:12 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Btw, even though Clinton had the win without needing superdelegates, Bernie’s people asked them to overturn that and go with him. So it seems the go with the most vote thing is not only undemocratic, it’s also situational.


Yeah, it's the eternal sin he will never live down. I think the "rigged" part of that election that most progressives are referring to was the fact that Hillary was essentially running the DNC while it was claiming to be "neutral". I never really get into this. It seems it's the winning side's greivance more than anyone's here.


The rigged part of it was the loss. That’s been consistent. Anything that doesn’t favor him was and is rigged. Even pre-emptively.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:16 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
So, and I know this is where I become impossible, to get back to the point we were actually debating, you think that if no one has the majority and they have to go to a second vote, the only democratic thing to do is to go for the leading vote getter? And why would there be a second vote in the first place?


It would be the most democratic thing to go with the leading popular vote getter because of the reasons I explained. How far ahead of the pack he actually is would probably make the difference for me. As long as the super delegates aren't directly tainting it I could stomach it.


Fair enough. I’ve never understood why a plurality would be more democratic than a runoff to get an actual majority.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:28 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Man, Reagan was younger than Biden, Sanders, and Bloomberg when he finished his second term.


Was just thinking this morning about "What does Sanders have to gain, personally, from becoming President?

A Jewish man who stands up to Israel seems like something the world could use more of.


Other than trump (who actually wanted the ability to corrupt the office to enrich his “business”, most people want the job for similar reasons. Vanity and ego. It is the most powerful and hard to get job in the world.

And let’s stay away from hints at antisemitic canards.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:02 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Man, Reagan was younger than Biden, Sanders, and Bloomberg when he finished his second term.


Was just thinking this morning about "What does Sanders have to gain, personally, from becoming President?

A Jewish man who stands up to Israel seems like something the world could use more of.

The power of the presidency. I can't fathom someone who thinks they should be POTUS not having a very healthy ego regardless of how they ultimately govern in office.

I think Buttigieg and maybe Klobuchar are running to up their national profiles and Bloomberg is clearly running to stop Sanders and stick it to Trump. I think Warren and Sanders are running for specific visions while Biden is focused on getting Trump out of office and thinks he has the best electoral chances in the general election. The issue is that they're all really, really old.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:04 am    Post subject:

eddiejonze wrote:
This is generally the problem I have with Sanders voters/fans/campaign - accuse opposing candidate of something, then say it's "not fair" to receive same accusation.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/19/politics/bernie-sanders-health-records-cnntv/index.html

It's nuts, how can you view this any other way than Sanders and his supporters are like Drumpf and his cult?!

Is he not going to release the results of his physicals while in office, too?

And before we get birtherism gaslighting again, let me ask: 1) was Obama actually born in Kenya? and 2) did Sanders actually have a heart attack five months ago that his campaign tried to spin for 48 hours.

ETA:

Here's Nina Turner on the Clinton pneumonia "coverup" in 2016: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQW0tSZUEAAPFc5?format=png&name=900x900
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:11 am    Post subject:

PRESIDENT TRUMP AT L.A. FUNDRAISER
Mocked Bernie Sanders ...


President Trump might be going to bat for Bernie Sanders in public -- but behind closed doors in L.A. ... he mocked the Vermont Senator as a "crazy" socialist he can easily beat.

DT was in the City of Angels Tuesday for what's been reported as a series of fundraisers and talks about the 2028 Olympics, which are set to take place in L.A. After arriving in town, Trump held a private dinner for donors at the Montage hotel in Beverly Hills.

. . . Anyway, we're told by someone present ... the Prez took a decent amount of time to call out Sen. Sanders by name, calling him "Crazy Bernie" and even openly saying he hopes he wins the Democratic nomination, 'cause Trump professed he could beat in a general election.

That's interesting, of course, because 45 has been tweeting about Bernie a lot lately -- suggesting the DNC is trying to "steal" the nomination from him like in 2016. Turns out, it appears it's because Trump really, REALLY thinks Bernie's a tire fire candidate.

We're told he kept the topic going, joking Bernie wants to give free education and stuff to everyone ... wondering if a Harvard education and Rolls-Royce cars were in store for "illegals" under his vision.

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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:12 am    Post subject:

lol Yang signs up to be a CNN political commentator. Looking forward to the Santorum/Yang debates with Jake Tapper raising a stern eyebrow every afternoon.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:49 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
lol Yang signs up to be a CNN political commentator. Looking forward to the Santorum/Yang debates with Jake Tapper raising a stern eyebrow every afternoon.


When trump says low IQ i actually think hes talking about Santorum.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:53 am    Post subject:

Some good news:
Quote:
Jonathan Topaz
@JonathanTopaz
BREAKING: The Eleventh Circuit unanimously upholds our injunction against the law restricting Florida's Amendment 4

"Denying access to the franchise to those genuinely unable to pay solely on account of wealth" is unconstitutional.

Thread: https://twitter.com/JonathanTopaz/status/1230145283193016321

ACLU press release on circuit court judgement: Link.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:18 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:


Fair enough. I’ve never understood why a plurality would be more democratic than a runoff to get an actual majority.


If Sanders gets the plurality, it won't be something like 25% of delegates, with everybody else somewhere between 10% and 20%. The 15% threshold prevents that. The latest poll out of California, for instance, suggests that Bernie will get most, if not all, the delegates there since all the moderates are under 15%.

If Bernie gets, say, 45% of the delegates, and everybody else is below 20%, he should be the nominee. It wouldn't be politically tenable to give the nomination to a candidate whose support was substantially smaller.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:26 am    Post subject:

In my mind Bernie's pounding "No more tax cut for billionaires" is partially a reason for his surge.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:40 am    Post subject:

Seeing Bernie and Bloomberg polling top 2 nationally makes me really long for the days when Warren and Biden were the top 2. On both sides.
Bernie makes Warren seems like a realist. And Bloomberg makes Biden look like a progressive.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:40 am    Post subject:

DNC members discuss rules change to stop Sanders at convention

Short of vote flipping this is probably the only scenario where I would use the term "rigged". A rule change during the middle of the game because you're not happy with how the result is going.

2016 was not rigged. It was just corrupt.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:42 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
In my mind Bernie's pounding "No more tax cut for billionaires" is partially a reason for his surge.


I think it's healthcare. Exit polls and data back that up.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/14/21132038/bernie-sanders-medicare-for-all-2020-election
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:50 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Seeing Bernie and Bloomberg polling top 2 nationally makes me really long for the days when Warren and Biden were the top 2. On both sides.
Bernie makes Warren seems like a realist. And Bloomberg makes Biden look like a progressive.

Who would you say is more progressive between Biden and Klobuchar?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:51 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
jodeke wrote:
In my mind Bernie's pounding "No more tax cut for billionaires" is partially a reason
for his surge.


I think it's healthcare. Exit polls and data back that up.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/2/14/21132038/bernie-sanders-medicare-for-all-2020-election

OK. Note bold green.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:55 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Seeing Bernie and Bloomberg polling top 2 nationally makes me really long for the days when Warren and Biden were the top 2. On both sides.
Bernie makes Warren seems like a realist. And Bloomberg makes Biden look like a progressive.


The fact that she like likes to virtue signal with plan-itis I don't think makes her more realistic. Just like Sanders is playing to his populist base with simple plans and generalities to show what he stands for, she's doing the same to her audience of West Wing watchers dreaming of a presidency where the Ivy League educated rub elbows in the White House and hatch brilliant policies on the fly.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:55 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Seeing Bernie and Bloomberg polling top 2 nationally makes me really long for the days when Warren and Biden were the top 2. On both sides.
Bernie makes Warren seems like a realist. And Bloomberg makes Biden look like a progressive.

Who would you say is more progressive between Biden and Klobuchar?


Ehh. That's like asking who has better post game. Trae Young or Steph Curry.
They both are left of Bloomberg. That's for sure. But tough to say who's left of the other.
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