OFFICIAL Class of 2015 Okafor/Mudiay/non-DLO Rookies Discussion
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ocho
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:32 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
The Jahliliest possession ever

https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984/video/1


Quote:
“I know about the clip that everybody’s been talking about,” Okafor said after shootaround Friday. “The persona of me not caring defensively is false. I took it upon myself to talk to our defensive coach Lloyd Pierce to ask about that individual clip. He said that I did the defensive concepts and that was to retreat, retreat, retreat.

“And I understand visually it looks bad. I was fatigued. I played the entire first quarter and I was tired. I’m not making excuses. … I did do what I was supposed to do and that’s retreat. We had an amazing roller in Hassan Whiteside so my job was to not let [Dragic or Whiteside] behind me. Of course [McGruder] runs in to get the offensive rebound and I’m [accountable] for that, too. That’s my fault, supposedly. That’s what everyone’s trying to make it out to be. The coaches are happy with the way I’ve been improving and every day I continue to work.”

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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
The Jahliliest possession ever

https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984/video/1


Quote:
“I know about the clip that everybody’s been talking about,” Okafor said after shootaround Friday. “The persona of me not caring defensively is false. I took it upon myself to talk to our defensive coach Lloyd Pierce to ask about that individual clip. He said that I did the defensive concepts and that was to retreat, retreat, retreat.

“And I understand visually it looks bad. I was fatigued. I played the entire first quarter and I was tired. I’m not making excuses. … I did do what I was supposed to do and that’s retreat. We had an amazing roller in Hassan Whiteside so my job was to not let [Dragic or Whiteside] behind me. Of course [McGruder] runs in to get the offensive rebound and I’m [accountable] for that, too. That’s my fault, supposedly. That’s what everyone’s trying to make it out to be. The coaches are happy with the way I’ve been improving and every day I continue to work.”

Does Lloyd Pierce coach him to not get his arms up on defense?
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:17 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
The Jahliliest possession ever

https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984/video/1


Quote:
“I know about the clip that everybody’s been talking about,” Okafor said after shootaround Friday. “The persona of me not caring defensively is false. I took it upon myself to talk to our defensive coach Lloyd Pierce to ask about that individual clip. He said that I did the defensive concepts and that was to retreat, retreat, retreat.

“And I understand visually it looks bad. I was fatigued. I played the entire first quarter and I was tired. I’m not making excuses. … I did do what I was supposed to do and that’s retreat. We had an amazing roller in Hassan Whiteside so my job was to not let [Dragic or Whiteside] behind me. Of course [McGruder] runs in to get the offensive rebound and I’m [accountable] for that, too. That’s my fault, supposedly. That’s what everyone’s trying to make it out to be. The coaches are happy with the way I’ve been improving and every day I continue to work.”


Wow his explanation makes him look worse.
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ocho
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
ocho wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
The Jahliliest possession ever

https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984/video/1


Quote:
“I know about the clip that everybody’s been talking about,” Okafor said after shootaround Friday. “The persona of me not caring defensively is false. I took it upon myself to talk to our defensive coach Lloyd Pierce to ask about that individual clip. He said that I did the defensive concepts and that was to retreat, retreat, retreat.

“And I understand visually it looks bad. I was fatigued. I played the entire first quarter and I was tired. I’m not making excuses. … I did do what I was supposed to do and that’s retreat. We had an amazing roller in Hassan Whiteside so my job was to not let [Dragic or Whiteside] behind me. Of course [McGruder] runs in to get the offensive rebound and I’m [accountable] for that, too. That’s my fault, supposedly. That’s what everyone’s trying to make it out to be. The coaches are happy with the way I’ve been improving and every day I continue to work.”


Wow his explanation makes him look worse.


My favorite part was the rebound he is "supposedly" responsible for.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
The early pages of this thread, with the Oak/Mudiay > DLO arguments....


Happy birthday to Emmanuel Mudiay, who somehow managed to get himself removed from the rotation and have his NBA future in question prior to turning 21.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:52 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
The early pages of this thread, with the Oak/Mudiay > DLO arguments....


Happy birthday to Emmanuel Mudiay, who somehow managed to get himself removed from the rotation and have his NBA future in question prior to turning 21.


Amazing how these Okafor and Mudiay arguments have been already convincingly won before the end of their second seasons (I'd argue they were won before the end of the 1st), and haters are still out in full force.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
The early pages of this thread, with the Oak/Mudiay > DLO arguments....


Happy birthday to Emmanuel Mudiay, who somehow managed to get himself removed from the rotation and have his NBA future in question prior to turning 21.


Amazing how these Okafor and Mudiay arguments have been already convincingly won before the end of their second seasons (I'd argue they were won before the end of the 1st), and haters are still out in full force.


Next up, Porzingis and Booker?

Please D'angelo.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:55 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Alex Kennedy‏ @AlexKennedyNBA 7m7 minutes ago

Since Jameer Nelson was named Denver's starting PG, Emmanuel Mudiay has been a DNP-CDs in 5 of the last 7 games (totaling just 26 minutes).

That's not a good sign.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:30 pm    Post subject:

This thread aims to get even more golden.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:32 am    Post subject:

City_Dawg wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
The Jahliliest possession ever

https://twitter.com/bachman_brian21/status/837106315952553984/video/1


Tim Duncan 2.0



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:21 am    Post subject:

Practice wrote:
Quote:
Alex Kennedy‏ @AlexKennedyNBA 7m7 minutes ago

Since Jameer Nelson was named Denver's starting PG, Emmanuel Mudiay has been a DNP-CDs in 5 of the last 7 games (totaling just 26 minutes).

That's not a good sign.


Who'd trade the late 1st and some cash for him to be Russell's backup?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:28 am    Post subject:

Just a look at where they are a year later - year 2 almost over. Some advanced and regular stats.

[WIN SHARES
Towns 10.1
Turner 6.3
Porzingis 4.0
Booker 1.7
Okafor 1.2
Russell 1.0

BPM
Towns 5.2
Turner 2.4
Porzingis 0.1
Russell -0.2
Booker -2.7
Okafor -3.1

Points per game and Usage Rate
Towns 24.5 ppg 27.5% Usage
Booker 21.1 ppg 27.2% Usage
Porzingis 18.1 ppg 24% Usage
Russell 15.1 ppg 27% Usage
Turner 14.9 ppg 20.1% Usage
Okafor 11.9 ppg 23.8% Usage

True Shooting percentage
Towns 60.7
Turner 58.8
Porzingis 54.6
Okafor 54.5
Booker 53.5
Russell 51.1

3 point percentage (Important in today's league I guess)
Porzingis 37.3
Booker 37.2
Russell 35.3
Towns 35.3
Turner 34
Okafor ---- (No 3 point shot)

Blocks per game (Bigs)
Turner 2.1
Porzingis 2.0
Towns 1.4
Okafor 1.0

Assists per game (Guards)
Russell 4.8
Booker 3.2

To me:

#1 Towns is by far the best player in the draft. Just a superstar in the making. Other than not being a great rim protector, he has everything you want in a modern day big. Going to be a multiple time all-star for sure.

(GAP)
------------------------------------

#2 TIE Porzingis is is a player whose usage has gone down but points gone up in year 2. Sharing the ball with Rose/Melo not easy but he has done very well despite the (bleep) that's going on with the Knicks. Broke a record for youngest player (and 12th only) to have 100+ three pointers and 100+ blocks a game. I can't honestly judge his second season or development properly. Would be interesting to see what he does without the Melo/Rose/Phi Jackson stuff that's going on in NY. Good for NY is his TS, 3 pointer all up, and that's with playing with Rose/Melo and not likely getting the ball like Towns, Russell, Booker and some others get.

#2 TIE Myles Turner. He and Booker are the true steals of the draft. They were drafted outside of top 10 and yet have top 5 impact. Top 5 draft talent. Great stuff from Myles. A similar player to Porzingis in verstatilty and impact, only a lesser shooter. But Myles is stronger, more physical and seems to have edges on KP in some advanced stats. I rate them equal right now, overall. Great steal for Indiana. Shows you can get a great talent WITHOUT tanking.

#4 Booker quietly has established himself as the #4 player in this draft so far. He's improved his 3 ball, his true shooting and his assists are not bad for a SG. The BPM hurts him, but I think he's been the 3rd best so far.

#5 Russell has improved his production this year and his assists are up. He got more usage this year and we see better results with his points and assists. His shooting is his main weakness and the thing holding him back to really become a superstar. His usage rate has gone up, but one would think if he shot a little better from 3 he would be so much better. That's what he needs to work on. I feel Russell is the better talent than Booker, but Booker is producing more so far and his 3 ball has been more consistent than Russell. For as much as Russell relies on the 3 ball, he needs to work on it more.

* I still rate Okafor in the top 6-7 prospects. Despite a season where he was rag dolled from backup to starter to DNP-Trade talks, he's been able to produce on offense. The guy is in a horrible situation and has clear flaws to his game, but unlike a Mudiay, Okafor's still able to score points, gain win shares, have a solid true percentage. His per 36 numbers are solid.
I didn't do Jokic, because I've realized this year that Jokic was drafted in another draft class. In the SECOND round. Ridiculous get. His numbers are monsterous. Love his impact on a game. Jokic - 7.6 win shares, 8.4 BPM, only 23.1 Usage rate, 64.7 TS%. Only weakness in Jokic's game is defense. He doesn't anchor and Denver is really easy to get layups on. They need to pair him with a 4 that can anchor and protect the rim.


Mudiay is a nearing bust status.
-2.2 Win shares
-3.9 BPM
47.2 TS%

To me Okafor is still a NBA player who can be a valuable piece. Mudiay is bust material. I do not equate the two at all. I think Okafor at worst is going to be what Kanter or Vucevic or those guys are for a NBA team. A 15 points a night scoring big off the bench. Mudiay keeps this up, he may not be in the league in 3 years. I still have hope for Okafor. I think he'll put it together and we'll see a good NBA player in the future.
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Drifts
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:21 pm    Post subject:

Really impressed with Booker. guy is not only talented, he seems to be very coachable and has been big time in the clutch... did a Kobe to the Mavs, that was Booker time.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:32 pm    Post subject:

*Bump* for Luminous

ETA: here's the original D'Angelo thread, as well: http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=174022
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:52 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
BTW, I was far more anti-Porzingis before the draft than I was anti-Okafor, and now I think KP is a stud. I'm not too proud to admit I was wrong. But Okafor is exactly the kind of player that I thought he'd be.


I don't believe your being fair about his potential though. Tim Duncan, pau gasol, Marc gasol are a few guys who have had success that I see similarities to. It seems like your handpicking the players who he's similar to because they were losers. Marc was awful defensively at 19 and couldn't scratch the NBA because of it. Slow, overweight, no motor, lack of a vertical. Very similar problems to oak. I think he can improve on his weaknesses as well as learn how to mask them similar to the Gasols. He'll never be as good as Duncan but maybe ten guys in history have.

Myles Turner is a good player but he is a role player. I can't see him being more than a low end starter/very good role player on a championship team at his best. I can see oaks ceiling being much more than that. Focal point of an offense type and good/smart team defender. I guess we just disagree but I don't think it's fair to say Turner projects way better.


Tim Duncan & Marc Gasol were DPOY level defenders. Pau was at least a decent shot blocker and an excellent shot creator with his passing. Okafor doesn't have any of those attributes.

Yes, Marc became a force on the defensive end and wasn't one all along, but it's what he needed to do to stick and get paid in the NBA. Okafor, like Jefferson, Love, Lopez, Monroe, etc. just needs to put up points and rebound at a tepid level and he'll make $100M+ in his career. A guy like Marc becoming a great defender at that point in the game is by far the exception rather than the rule.


He's more offensively skilled than Jefferson Lopez and Monroe were at the same age. We can nitpick who he's similar to for hours but it doesn't prove anything. I'm not even sure Love can't be a first or very good second option on offense on a championship team with good defenders around him but that's a different discussion. You say oak won't improve defensively because he won't have to in order to get paid. You could say that about almost all rookies for at least one facet of their game. The greats improve in the parts of their game they don't have to. Neither of us know if he will but my point is he has the potential to and if he does he will be greater than Myles Turner even if he reaches his peak. You are unfairly predicting oaks potential if you think he won't improve his defense because he won't have to. I feel like you saying that demonstrates my point.


Why assume that Oak's best will be better than Turner's best? Aren't they both the same age? And how is Turner at age 19 relegated to career role player status?

He just scored 31 points against GSW off putbacks, rolls to the basket, a sweet jumper (and FT stroke), an under control dribble drive against a closeout, and a consistent hook shot and turnaround jumper in the post. It's one game, but he displayed a developing all-around offensive game while being solid on defense against the defending champs as a teenager. Role player?


He had one great game. None of those things are skill that help him create for himself or for others. Put backs, rolling to the basket hard, spot up shooting, and good shot blocking are all skills of a role player. He could be an exceptional role player but he has never shown the potential to carry an offense like oak has a few times in philly and all year at Duke.


Is LaMarcus Aldridge a role player?


No not at all. Aldridge is a very smart player and has good court vision. I don't see that in Turner. I don't think he has the ball skills to create for himself either unlike Aldridge.


No worries, good to know your tshoughts on Aldridge. I do think Turner can develop along similar lines, but he does trail Aldridge as a passer early in his career.

I see Turner averaging 19/9/2.5 on 61% TS at age 19 with flashes of scoring in the post and off the dribble-pull-up (admittedly in only 21 games), and it's not hard for me to envision him developing into an efficient, if not very sexy, #2 option on a playoff team. More importantly, he looks like a player who in the future could be put on any team in the league and do the things that produce wins in today's NBA.

I like Okafor, and I think he'll be a multi-year All-Star. And I actually do think Okafor can become a plus defender over time, and as wolf has posted previously in this thread, I like Okafor to become a Carmelo Anthony at C offensively. But he needs a very specific team to be built around him to maximize his post-scoring talents and help cover his issues defending in space.

LOL

How dumb was I?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:57 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
I don't disagree that Okafor has an elite post and isolation game. My point is that it doesn't matter very much. If you strip away his issues with rebounding, rim protection, hustle, turnovers, etc, and JUST focus on his scoring, which is the thing that he's supposed to be elite at.

Jahlil Okafor's TS% (51.8%) Rankings (min. 20 games played, 10mpg)

228th out of 336 NBA players
121st out of 162 Front Court Players
37th out of 41 Centers

Okafor's game is aesthetically elite. We're not talking about a guy with talent in the post/iso situations that isn't realized yet. He's got the moves right now. It just doesn't actually turn into points for himself or for the other team. Sure, he will improve with experience, but it's not like he's in the middle of the pack on these numbers. He's near the bottom, relative to his position.

I feel like we have this same debate every year, and there's always some reason why bigs of his ilk can't score efficiently, and their teams can't win. There's always some hypothetical scenario, where if only they were used in exactly the right way that no NBA coach has been able to figure out, they would become great weapons. Okafor would not be a great fit in New York. They'd be facing the same problems that Philly does with playing him. It's a fundamental difficulty with a guy like him. There's a reason there are no examples of guys like him on good offensive teams in the NBA.


Coaches have figured it out, just not the coaches in Philly. You obviously know it takes a certain type of team to take advantage of a post dominant player, can we stop pretending like Philly has that team and Okafor is simply not taking advantage of it? They don't have the shooters, they don't have the system and they don't have the coach. And he's a rookie. Far from a finished product. Just because he has moves right now doesn't mean he wont get significantly better. He'd get better just by having the right team, but he'd also get better with extended range, a better body and more NBA experience.

He wouldn't be better fit in NY? I beg to differ. Perfect system, shooters and playing next to a star.

What problems would NY be facing with Okafor that Philly is facing now?

Imagine for a second that Pop got a hold of Jahlil. What do you think would happen? That system, that coach, that franchise...


After you visit the alternate reality where Okafor is a Knick, please bring back bball-ref stats and inter-dimensional duty free Crown Royal. I can hypothesize that KP in a frontcourt with Noel and Covington would give the Sixers one of the top defenses in the NBA while the Knicks would be challenging the Lakers for worst defense in the league with Okafor instead of Lopez and Porzingis. But that's counterfactual speculation with no way to win just like your argument to the converse.

How about this: What would Golden State look like with Okafor? What would Golden State look like with Porzingis?

My basketball takes are always better when I'm mean.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:59 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
For those who understand BPM better than I do (probably most posters here), what do you make of Okafor, who has improved, having a BPM of -4.1?

It's only oe data point, but looking at 1st and 2nd year players over the past 25 years with more than 500 minutes and usage rate greater than 23% (which is DLo's USG%), Okafor's BPM places him in company with guys like Harold Minor, Tyler Hansborough, and Michael Beasley when they first entered the league. Some guys in his current BPM ranking cohort were serviceable NBA players like Lamond Murray, and Ced Ceballos - who was terri-bad his first two seasons in the league - made one All-Star team. But the only really good player in the group was Rip Hamilton, who looked like he really struggled during his first two seasons in DC.

Again, it's just one data point, but I'm trying to reconcile a 20 year old putting up 17/7 with such a mediocre BPM (and RPM for that matter). Because if Okafor continues his current pace and finishes with more than 1800 minutes and a 27 USG%, he and Michael Beasley would be the two lowest ranked young players by BPM in the past 25 years. But he does have 35 games left to improve.


Here is the formula for raw BPM, for the purposes of the rest of my post. Raw BPM is a player's BPM before the Team Adjustment:

Raw BPM = *ReMPG + *ORB% + *DRB% + *STL% + *BLK% + *AST% - *USG%*TO% +
*USG%*(1-TO%)*[2*(TS% - TmTS%) + *AST% + *(3PAr - Lg3PAr) - k] + *sqrt(AST%*TRB%)


Okafor doesn't do well in BPM because he doesn't score efficiently (51.8%, when the league average is 53.7%), that scoring inefficiency is exacerbated by high usage, he doesn't get assists or steals at a high rate (few bigs do), and that isn't compensated for by high rebound or block rates, which most bigs have. Okafor is just a bit over the league average in categories where bigs usually have a significant advantage over wings and guards.

When people say he's going to 17/7 on the year as a way of advocating for him, my first thought is that the "7" is a mark against him.

Okafor's rankings amongst the 41 qualifying centers (20 games played, 10mpg) in the NBA:

True Shooting Percentage........37th
Rebound Rate........................37th
Assist Rate............................23rd
Steal Rate.............................35th
Block Rate.............................31st
Turnover Rate..........................9th

Aside from Turnover Rate (I didn't realize he had improved this much in this area), what does he do better than other bigs? Not in an aesthetic, "look at those post moves" sort of way, but in a tangible one. This is why his VORP (-0.7) is so low.

Look at GT bringing the heat on Okafor back in the day!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:36 am    Post subject:

My Crow is tasting good atm
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