|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Mamba81
Star Player
Joined: 19 Nov 2019
Posts: 2027
|
 Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
Not for me, but bear in mind that Kobe is generally going to fare poorly on metrics across the board, because metrics do not rate him as an impactful defender. This has been discussed before, probably in this thread. |
I've always wondered what specific stats on both offense and defense were used when judging that Duncan was better. That's all. Or if it was more of an eye test or rings argument. |
it definitely aint eye test. duncan one boring mf |
 |
forreal tho. most exciting thing about him was a shot off the backboard. |
Fans can name so many Kobe moments over the years.
The dunk in MSG
The 81 point game
62 in 3 quarters (outscoring a Finals bound team by himself! )
The dunk in Minnesota in the playoffs
The ally oop to Shaq
The 2 clutch shots in Portland to win the division
The dunk on Dwight
The impossible shots to sink the Suns in the playoffs
Game 4 vs Indiana...
And on and on and on and on.
Now someone tell me what moments in Duncan’s career are timeless?
I remember the shot over Shaq right before Fisher’s miracle.
Can’t recall any other signature moments.
And to be clear, I’m not talking about averages...just moments where a legend says
“See me, bi***es” |
anyone who puts duncan over kobe is clueless to me
_________________
Kobe Forever |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mamba81 wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
Not for me, but bear in mind that Kobe is generally going to fare poorly on metrics across the board, because metrics do not rate him as an impactful defender. This has been discussed before, probably in this thread. |
I've always wondered what specific stats on both offense and defense were used when judging that Duncan was better. That's all. Or if it was more of an eye test or rings argument. |
it definitely aint eye test. duncan one boring mf |
|
forreal tho. most exciting thing about him was a shot off the backboard. |
Fans can name so many Kobe moments over the years.
The dunk in MSG
The 81 point game
62 in 3 quarters (outscoring a Finals bound team by himself! )
The dunk in Minnesota in the playoffs
The ally oop to Shaq
The 2 clutch shots in Portland to win the division
The dunk on Dwight
The impossible shots to sink the Suns in the playoffs
Game 4 vs Indiana...
And on and on and on and on.
Now someone tell me what moments in Duncan’s career are timeless?
I remember the shot over Shaq right before Fisher’s miracle.
Can’t recall any other signature moments.
And to be clear, I’m not talking about averages...just moments where a legend says
“See me, bi***es” |
anyone who puts duncan over kobe is clueless to me |
Never understood it
_________________
Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
moonriver24
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 15265
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mad55557777 wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Who is better than Harden over the last five years? Curry, maybe. Lebron, maybe. You may not like his game, and I won’t blame you for that. He’s still been pretty amazing. |
KD |
I agree. Curry during the championships showed he was one to be reckoned. But in the greatest moments sometimes he folded under pressure. It took Durant to save him 2 of his three rings. When Durant was injured in the playoffs, the Warriors' fate was determined.
For a while, I thought Harden would become the chosen one. But his style of playing really hurt himself in the long run. Lately, the proofs are in the pudding. When he couldn't hit the threes well, he is doomed. He could have helped won some losing games if he played defense or attacked differently. You see very well what separated Kobe from other shooting guards or guards.
But of course Dreamshake will accuse me of rewriting the past if I say more on Harden. I just don't see how Rockets will go deep in the playoffs if Harden does not change the approach or if the coach does not change his way of utilizing Harden. And yes, they are stuck with the cap to make an upgrade without breaking up the current roster.
_________________
Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
moonriver24
Franchise Player
Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 15265
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
Not for me, but bear in mind that Kobe is generally going to fare poorly on metrics across the board, because metrics do not rate him as an impactful defender. This has been discussed before, probably in this thread. |
I've always wondered what specific stats on both offense and defense were used when judging that Duncan was better. That's all. Or if it was more of an eye test or rings argument. |
I don’t know that anyone focused on metrics, which really didn’t exist back then. There was a four year stretch when Duncan either won the MVP or finished second. Box score stats are a poor measure of defense, but Duncan was averaging about 12.5 rebounds and 2.5 blocks. So I wouldn’t say that it was just an eye test.
If I was going to compare metrics, I’d start with BPM because it is readily available for the early ‘00s. You can find the RAPM numbers for that era with some effort. |
Duncan as a PF/C naturally would produce more blocks than Kobe, a shooting guard. Having been selected as First-team Defense several times during his prime time, the voters certainly factored in "eye-tests" in the voting. As for Duncan, it was "assumed" he played defense because of his position. So, sometimes position and reputation helped some players to get the nod. But I know, as great as Duncan as a defender, he couldn't stop Kobe from scoring and dunking on him many times. Great offense beats great defense, as one commentator said on Kobe.
_________________
Kobe's Top 5 Dunks, 81 points, MJ last gm @Staples |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Snipes
Star Player
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 6020
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
Not for me, but bear in mind that Kobe is generally going to fare poorly on metrics across the board, because metrics do not rate him as an impactful defender. This has been discussed before, probably in this thread. |
I've always wondered what specific stats on both offense and defense were used when judging that Duncan was better. That's all. Or if it was more of an eye test or rings argument. |
it definitely aint eye test. duncan one boring mf |
|
forreal tho. most exciting thing about him was a shot off the backboard. |
Fans can name so many Kobe moments over the years.
The dunk in MSG
The 81 point game
62 in 3 quarters (outscoring a Finals bound team by himself! )
The dunk in Minnesota in the playoffs
The ally oop to Shaq
The 2 clutch shots in Portland to win the division
The dunk on Dwight
The impossible shots to sink the Suns in the playoffs
Game 4 vs Indiana...
And on and on and on and on.
Now someone tell me what moments in Duncan’s career are timeless?
I remember the shot over Shaq right before Fisher’s miracle.
Can’t recall any other signature moments.
And to be clear, I’m not talking about averages...just moments where a legend says
“See me, bi***es” |
anyone who puts duncan over kobe is clueless to me |
Never understood it |
Same wavelength as him being left off top 10 nba players all time list by BR and the fact that Lebron just jumped over him to be compared to with MJ.
Most hated athlete of our time that did nothing wrong - except cheating on his wife.
If Colorado doesn’t happen and Bean has the same resume I believe ESPN would label him the undisputed GOAT. I don’t think he would have the same resume though..Colorado adversity made him better |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Snipes wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
Not for me, but bear in mind that Kobe is generally going to fare poorly on metrics across the board, because metrics do not rate him as an impactful defender. This has been discussed before, probably in this thread. |
I've always wondered what specific stats on both offense and defense were used when judging that Duncan was better. That's all. Or if it was more of an eye test or rings argument. |
it definitely aint eye test. duncan one boring mf |
|
forreal tho. most exciting thing about him was a shot off the backboard. |
Fans can name so many Kobe moments over the years.
The dunk in MSG
The 81 point game
62 in 3 quarters (outscoring a Finals bound team by himself! )
The dunk in Minnesota in the playoffs
The ally oop to Shaq
The 2 clutch shots in Portland to win the division
The dunk on Dwight
The impossible shots to sink the Suns in the playoffs
Game 4 vs Indiana...
And on and on and on and on.
Now someone tell me what moments in Duncan’s career are timeless?
I remember the shot over Shaq right before Fisher’s miracle.
Can’t recall any other signature moments.
And to be clear, I’m not talking about averages...just moments where a legend says
“See me, bi***es” |
anyone who puts duncan over kobe is clueless to me |
Never understood it |
Same wavelength as him being left off top 10 nba players all time list by BR and the fact that Lebron just jumped over him to be compared to with MJ.
Most hated athlete of our time that did nothing wrong - except cheating on his wife.
If Colorado doesn’t happen and Bean has the same resume I believe ESPN would label him the undisputed GOAT. I don’t think he would have the same resume though..Colorado adversity made him better |
Such a baller. No weaknesses in his game.
Then you add on top of that his fearlessness and relentless mindset.
Homie has a Freaking “mentality” named after him
Like, who else has that?
_________________
Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| moonriver24 wrote: | | Duncan as a PF/C naturally would produce more blocks than Kobe, a shooting guard. Having been selected as First-team Defense several times during his prime time, the voters certainly factored in "eye-tests" in the voting. As for Duncan, it was "assumed" he played defense because of his position. So, sometimes position and reputation helped some players to get the nod. But I know, as great as Duncan as a defender, he couldn't stop Kobe from scoring and dunking on him many times. Great offense beats great defense, as one commentator said on Kobe. |
What? When it comes to first team all-defense selections, there may be no other player in the history of the NBA who benefited more from "position and reputation" than Kobe. It used to be an annual eye-rolling event on this board when Kobe got picked to the first team. In fairness, the competition was pretty weak during the prime of his career. SG wasn't much of a position for defenders in those days, and it is only marginally better today. But as I have said many times, this is one of the reasons why metrics are likely to degrade Kobe's reputation as the years go by. Metrics show Kobe to be an average defender at best. Memories fade, but stats last forever.
Anyway, the specific point I was addressing was whether Duncan was a superior player through 2005. I'm not sure how anyone would really argue against that proposition. On defense, Duncan was competing against guys like Garnett, Wallace, and Shaq. That's a different ballgame. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
governator
Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25064
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | moonriver24 wrote: | | Duncan as a PF/C naturally would produce more blocks than Kobe, a shooting guard. Having been selected as First-team Defense several times during his prime time, the voters certainly factored in "eye-tests" in the voting. As for Duncan, it was "assumed" he played defense because of his position. So, sometimes position and reputation helped some players to get the nod. But I know, as great as Duncan as a defender, he couldn't stop Kobe from scoring and dunking on him many times. Great offense beats great defense, as one commentator said on Kobe. |
What? When it comes to first team all-defense selections, there may be no other player in the history of the NBA who benefited more from "position and reputation" than Kobe. It used to be an annual eye-rolling event on this board when Kobe got picked to the first team. In fairness, the competition was pretty weak during the prime of his career. SG wasn't much of a position for defenders in those days, and it is only marginally better today. But as I have said many times, this is one of the reasons why metrics are likely to degrade Kobe's reputation as the years go by. Metrics show Kobe to be an average defender at best. Memories fade, but stats last forever.
Anyway, the specific point I was addressing was whether Duncan was a superior player through 2005. I'm not sure how anyone would really argue against that proposition. On defense, Duncan was competing against guys like Garnett, Wallace, and Shaq. That's a different ballgame. |
both are good offensively and defensively, was Duncan that much superior defensively compared to Kobe to you that it overcome how much superior Kobe was offensively compared to Duncan? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| governator wrote: | | both are good offensively and defensively, was Duncan that much superior defensively compared to Kobe to you that it overcome how much superior Kobe was offensively compared to Duncan? |
Through 2005, yes. At that point in time, you would have been hard pressed to find anyone who would argue the reverse, other than diehard Kobe fans. Of course, it didn't help that Kobe was carrying all of the other baggage. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
L4L
Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 291
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
I do not think the near future is going to be kind to Kobe’s legacy. When the last people who saw him play stop caring about arguing in favor of him, people are going to be swayed by things like Win Shares, BPM, RAPM, etc. Those metrics do not like Kobe very much in the context of a GOAT discussion. You’re going to see people putting guys like Wade, Harden, Durant, CP3, and other metric-darlings ahead of him in all-time rankings. It’s not that far off from happening. Go read non-Lakers boards and you’ll see there’s a very large contingent that has him in basically AI territory in terms of legacy. Based on stats, they think he’s one of the most overrated players of all-time.
Fans value statistics more than reputation when it comes to players they didn’t see play... even statistics that have severe limitations that, IMO, don’t make them appropriate to help settle arguments between players of close skill levels/impact. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
governator
Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25064
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| L4L wrote: | I do not think the near future is going to be kind to Kobe’s legacy. When the last people who saw him play stop caring about arguing in favor of him, people are going to be swayed by things like Win Shares, BPM, RAPM, etc. Those metrics do not like Kobe very much in the context of a GOAT discussion. You’re going to see people putting guys like Wade, Harden, Durant, CP3, and other metric-darlings ahead of him in all-time rankings. It’s not that far off from happening. Go read non-Lakers boards and you’ll see there’s a very large contingent that has him in basically AI territory in terms of legacy. Based on stats, they think he’s one of the most overrated players of all-time.
Fans value statistics more than reputation when it comes to players they didn’t see play... even statistics that have severe limitations that, IMO, don’t make them appropriate to help settle arguments between players of close skill levels/impact. |
I think the banned batguano posted pages and pages of NBA players very much stating Kobe was the best |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
L4L
Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 291
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| governator wrote: |
I think the banned batguano posted pages and pages of NBA players very much stating Kobe was the best |
I don’t think that has much sway with most fans, tbh. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Metro2Staples
Starting Rotation
Joined: 08 Sep 2019
Posts: 311
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
LAbron needs only 66 points to pass Bryant.
Which game do you expect it to happen?
3 road games, then LAC at home
NYK
Brooklyn
Sixers
Clippers
A group of us Lakers season ticket holders will likely be headed out to Philly, depending on how the NYK and Brooklyn games go. This is a great moment in NBA history as we watch LAbron move up the ranks to #1. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
governator
Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25064
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Metro2Staples wrote: | LAbron needs only 66 points to pass Bryant.
Which game do you expect it to happen?
3 road games, then LAC at home
NYK
Brooklyn
Sixers
Clippers
A group of us Lakers season ticket holders will likely be headed out to Philly, depending on how the NYK and Brooklyn games go. This is a great moment in NBA history as we watch LAbron move up the ranks to #1. |
ignoring your ranking  , It'd be bananas he goes for it tomorrow in MSG but I doubt it, I think you betting on the Philly game might be the one |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| L4L wrote: | I do not think the near future is going to be kind to Kobe’s legacy. When the last people who saw him play stop caring about arguing in favor of him, people are going to be swayed by things like Win Shares, BPM, RAPM, etc. Those metrics do not like Kobe very much in the context of a GOAT discussion. You’re going to see people putting guys like Wade, Harden, Durant, CP3, and other metric-darlings ahead of him in all-time rankings. It’s not that far off from happening. Go read non-Lakers boards and you’ll see there’s a very large contingent that has him in basically AI territory in terms of legacy. Based on stats, they think he’s one of the most overrated players of all-time.
Fans value statistics more than reputation when it comes to players they didn’t see play... even statistics that have severe limitations that, IMO, don’t make them appropriate to help settle arguments between players of close skill levels/impact. |
Eventually athletes tend to be reduced to a page of stats or their singular accomplishments.
That's just the nature of things. Most people are not historians, and they don't care that much about the eras that preceded the period when they started following a sport.
Eventually, the Kobe debates on this board will be greeted with the same indifference that a Magic-Bird or Wilt-Russell or West-Oscar debate would be greeted today. Happens to everyone. Out with the old, in with the new. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| activeverb wrote: | | L4L wrote: | I do not think the near future is going to be kind to Kobe’s legacy. When the last people who saw him play stop caring about arguing in favor of him, people are going to be swayed by things like Win Shares, BPM, RAPM, etc. Those metrics do not like Kobe very much in the context of a GOAT discussion. You’re going to see people putting guys like Wade, Harden, Durant, CP3, and other metric-darlings ahead of him in all-time rankings. It’s not that far off from happening. Go read non-Lakers boards and you’ll see there’s a very large contingent that has him in basically AI territory in terms of legacy. Based on stats, they think he’s one of the most overrated players of all-time.
Fans value statistics more than reputation when it comes to players they didn’t see play... even statistics that have severe limitations that, IMO, don’t make them appropriate to help settle arguments between players of close skill levels/impact. |
Eventually athletes tend to be reduced to a page of stats or their singular accomplishments.
That's just the nature of things. Most people are not historians, and they don't care that much about the eras that preceded the period when they started following a sport.
Eventually, the Kobe debates on this board will be greeted with the same indifference that a Magic-Bird or Wilt-Russell or West-Oscar debate would be greeted today. Happens to everyone. Out with the old, in with the new. |
Doesn’t change just how great Kobe was.
_________________
Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | L4L wrote: | I do not think the near future is going to be kind to Kobe’s legacy. When the last people who saw him play stop caring about arguing in favor of him, people are going to be swayed by things like Win Shares, BPM, RAPM, etc. Those metrics do not like Kobe very much in the context of a GOAT discussion. You’re going to see people putting guys like Wade, Harden, Durant, CP3, and other metric-darlings ahead of him in all-time rankings. It’s not that far off from happening. Go read non-Lakers boards and you’ll see there’s a very large contingent that has him in basically AI territory in terms of legacy. Based on stats, they think he’s one of the most overrated players of all-time.
Fans value statistics more than reputation when it comes to players they didn’t see play... even statistics that have severe limitations that, IMO, don’t make them appropriate to help settle arguments between players of close skill levels/impact. |
Eventually athletes tend to be reduced to a page of stats or their singular accomplishments.
That's just the nature of things. Most people are not historians, and they don't care that much about the eras that preceded the period when they started following a sport.
Eventually, the Kobe debates on this board will be greeted with the same indifference that a Magic-Bird or Wilt-Russell or West-Oscar debate would be greeted today. Happens to everyone. Out with the old, in with the new. |
Doesn’t change just how great Kobe was. |
Of course. Just as the relative indifference people have to, oh, Oscar, Bob Pettit, etc. don't change how great they were. The main point is that over time the nuances and subjective qualities become less important in player's reputation because over time fewer people know who the player was.
That's why Oscar became primarily known as the triple-double guy, and his reputation took a nosedive when Westbrook matched that feat and diminished it. Oscar has been reduced to nothing but a page of stats, and the stats aren't as impressive as they once were.
But again that's life. I am sure there were athletes in ancient greece that people of the day thought would be remembered forever.
All we are is dust in the wind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
Not for me, but bear in mind that Kobe is generally going to fare poorly on metrics across the board, because metrics do not rate him as an impactful defender. This has been discussed before, probably in this thread. |
I've always wondered what specific stats on both offense and defense were used when judging that Duncan was better. That's all. Or if it was more of an eye test or rings argument. |
it definitely aint eye test. duncan one boring mf |
|
forreal tho. most exciting thing about him was a shot off the backboard. |
Fans can name so many Kobe moments over the years.
The dunk in MSG
The 81 point game
62 in 3 quarters (outscoring a Finals bound team by himself! )
The dunk in Minnesota in the playoffs
The ally oop to Shaq
The 2 clutch shots in Portland to win the division
The dunk on Dwight
The impossible shots to sink the Suns in the playoffs
Game 4 vs Indiana...
And on and on and on and on.
Now someone tell me what moments in Duncan’s career are timeless?
I remember the shot over Shaq right before Fisher’s miracle.
Can’t recall any other signature moments.
And to be clear, I’m not talking about averages...just moments where a legend says
“See me, bi***es” |
anyone who puts duncan over kobe is clueless to me |
Never understood it |
Finals record truthers. Both of them. Haha.
_________________
Clippers are our Daddy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| activeverb wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | L4L wrote: | I do not think the near future is going to be kind to Kobe’s legacy. When the last people who saw him play stop caring about arguing in favor of him, people are going to be swayed by things like Win Shares, BPM, RAPM, etc. Those metrics do not like Kobe very much in the context of a GOAT discussion. You’re going to see people putting guys like Wade, Harden, Durant, CP3, and other metric-darlings ahead of him in all-time rankings. It’s not that far off from happening. Go read non-Lakers boards and you’ll see there’s a very large contingent that has him in basically AI territory in terms of legacy. Based on stats, they think he’s one of the most overrated players of all-time.
Fans value statistics more than reputation when it comes to players they didn’t see play... even statistics that have severe limitations that, IMO, don’t make them appropriate to help settle arguments between players of close skill levels/impact. |
Eventually athletes tend to be reduced to a page of stats or their singular accomplishments.
That's just the nature of things. Most people are not historians, and they don't care that much about the eras that preceded the period when they started following a sport.
Eventually, the Kobe debates on this board will be greeted with the same indifference that a Magic-Bird or Wilt-Russell or West-Oscar debate would be greeted today. Happens to everyone. Out with the old, in with the new. |
Doesn’t change just how great Kobe was. |
Of course. Just as the relative indifference people have to, oh, Oscar, Bob Pettit, etc. don't change how great they were. The main point is that over time the nuances and subjective qualities become less important in player's reputation because over time fewer people know who the player was.
That's why Oscar became primarily known as the triple-double guy, and his reputation took a nosedive when Westbrook matched that feat and diminished it. Oscar has been reduced to nothing but a page of stats, and the stats aren't as impressive as they once were.
But again that's life. I am sure there were athletes in ancient greece that people of the day thought would be remembered forever.
All we are is dust in the wind. |
You’re not wrong
_________________
Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ringfinger wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LaLaLakeShow wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Mamba81 wrote: | | LandsbergerRules wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
Not for me, but bear in mind that Kobe is generally going to fare poorly on metrics across the board, because metrics do not rate him as an impactful defender. This has been discussed before, probably in this thread. |
I've always wondered what specific stats on both offense and defense were used when judging that Duncan was better. That's all. Or if it was more of an eye test or rings argument. |
it definitely aint eye test. duncan one boring mf |
|
forreal tho. most exciting thing about him was a shot off the backboard. |
Fans can name so many Kobe moments over the years.
The dunk in MSG
The 81 point game
62 in 3 quarters (outscoring a Finals bound team by himself! )
The dunk in Minnesota in the playoffs
The ally oop to Shaq
The 2 clutch shots in Portland to win the division
The dunk on Dwight
The impossible shots to sink the Suns in the playoffs
Game 4 vs Indiana...
And on and on and on and on.
Now someone tell me what moments in Duncan’s career are timeless?
I remember the shot over Shaq right before Fisher’s miracle.
Can’t recall any other signature moments.
And to be clear, I’m not talking about averages...just moments where a legend says
“See me, bi***es” |
anyone who puts duncan over kobe is clueless to me |
Never understood it |
Finals record truthers. Both of them. Haha. |
Okey Dokey
_________________
Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| L4L wrote: | | governator wrote: |
I think the banned batguano posted pages and pages of NBA players very much stating Kobe was the best |
I don’t think that has much sway with most fans, tbh. |
No, it doesn't. Most of us know that players react to a different set of criteria than everyone else. To put it simplistically, Kobe played hero ball, and other players all want to be heroes. Kobe's style and attitude appeal to other players -- and a lot of fans -- in a way that Lebron, Duncan, Curry, and others cannot match. But when most people think about ranking players on an all-time basis, this is not a significant factor for most people.
Going back a generation or two and switching sports, other players used to idolize Nolan Ryan. If a sports writer would post something critical of Ryan, players would come and tell him that he just didn't understand. This was because players knew exactly how hard it was to pitch like Ryan -- throwing really hard, trying to make a perfect pitch every time, and refusing to give in to the hitters. Other players were blown away by him, literally and figuratively. So when the sabermetric types showed up and started questioning the king's attire, some of the other players just went ballistic.
Today, someone would pull up Nolan Ryan's stats and see a guy with 300 wins and a bunch of no-hitters, but also with almost 300 losses. They would see a guy who is the all-time career leader in strikeouts, but also the all-time career leader in walks. They would see a guy who is the all-time leader in fewest hits per nine innings, but also a guy with a good but not great career ERA by the standards of his time. He'd make you scratch your head.
The point is that, a generation or two later, it is not be a significant factor that a bunch of old timers thought that Nolan Ryan was really great. Even back in the day, there were a lot of fans who questioned whether Ryan was as great as people claimed. After all, we could watch him with our own eyes and form our own opinions. I expect that the same thing will apply to Kobe: players' opinions will be relevant, but not as persuasive as stats and the fans' own memories. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | L4L wrote: | | governator wrote: |
I think the banned batguano posted pages and pages of NBA players very much stating Kobe was the best |
I don’t think that has much sway with most fans, tbh. |
No, it doesn't. Most of us know that players react to a different set of criteria than everyone else. To put it simplistically, Kobe played hero ball, and other players all want to be heroes. Kobe's style and attitude appeal to other players -- and a lot of fans -- in a way that Lebron, Duncan, Curry, and others cannot match. But when most people think about ranking players on an all-time basis, this is not a significant factor for most people.
Going back a generation or two and switching sports, other players used to idolize Nolan Ryan. If a sports writer would post something critical of Ryan, players would come and tell him that he just didn't understand. This was because players knew exactly how hard it was to pitch like Ryan -- throwing really hard, trying to make a perfect pitch every time, and refusing to give in to the hitters. Other players were blown away by him, literally and figuratively. So when the sabermetric types showed up and started questioning the king's attire, some of the other players just went ballistic.
Today, someone would pull up Nolan Ryan's stats and see a guy with 300 wins and a bunch of no-hitters, but also with almost 300 losses. They would see a guy who is the all-time career leader in strikeouts, but also the all-time career leader in walks. They would see a guy who is the all-time leader in fewest hits per nine innings, but also a guy with a good but not great career ERA by the standards of his time. He'd make you scratch your head.
The point is that, a generation or two later, it is not be a significant factor that a bunch of old timers thought that Nolan Ryan was really great. Even back in the day, there were a lot of fans who questioned whether Ryan was as great as people claimed. After all, we could watch him with our own eyes and form our own opinions. I expect that the same thing will apply to Kobe: players' opinions will be relevant, but not as persuasive as stats and the fans' own memories. |
7 no hitters
81 points
Sometimes true greatness is easy to spot
Unless you’re trying to find ways to ignore it, which many in the media are guilty of. And this trickles down to the fans at times.
What’re you gonna do? 🤷♂️
_________________
Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
L4L
Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 291
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with the points being made by AH and AV here. Ryan is an interesting analog. Kobe played in a very similar way to how Ryan pitched.
I think the main point I wanted to make was that I expect Kobe’s legacy to age very poorly relative to other greats specifically because of the rise of “advanced” stats and the various metrics that are now readily available to the public. Kobe does not fare well by these numbers and the growing trend among serious fans and the media, as far as I can tell, is to value advanced stats over individual accomplishments such as championships, All-NBA teams, records, etc.
I think in 20 years you might see Kobe ranked a lot lower than 14 or whatever the offending number in this thread was. I don’t agree with it, but I don’t expect the fact he won so many rings to outweigh the fact that so many of his contemporaries have better advanced stats and metric evaluations. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LaLaLakeShow
Star Player
Joined: 04 Aug 2019
Posts: 2989
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| L4L wrote: | I agree with the points being made by AH and AV here. Ryan is an interesting analog. Kobe played in a very similar way to how Ryan pitched.
I think the main point I wanted to make was that I expect Kobe’s legacy to age very poorly relative to other greats specifically because of the rise of “advanced” stats and the various metrics that are now readily available to the public. Kobe does not fare well by these numbers and the growing trend among serious fans and the media, as far as I can tell, is to value advanced stats over individual accomplishments such as championships, All-NBA teams, records, etc.
I think in 20 years you might see Kobe ranked a lot lower than 14 or whatever the offending number in this thread was. I don’t agree with it, but I don’t expect the fact he won so many rings to outweigh the fact that so many of his contemporaries have better advanced stats and metric evaluations. |
Dude was a beast that would rip the heart out of most players with those wonderful metrics people value so much at present.
“Experts” can rank him how they see fit.
But some of the most important aspects of an athlete can never be analyzed or quantified.
Like Rudy Tom-Tom say: “Never underestimate the heart of a champion!”
Show me which advanced stat measures a players Heart and I might start giving a Sh**
_________________
Mamba Made Moments Meticulously Magnificent |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Eh. When you start talking about "heart" and the like, you're dipping into the BS dump. In the end, actual production is what matters. You can argue that the metrics understate (or overstate) a player for various reasons, but "heart" doesn't provide bonus points when you miss a shot. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
