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ContagiousInspiration
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Joined: 07 May 2014
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Location: Boulder ;)
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 Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: |
Well, well, well. So much for supporting the Democratic nominee no matter what. So much for Trump is an existential threat and the Democrats need to come together no matter who the nominee is. Really? “Nobody likes him.” Is this high school?
Hillary is the gift that just keeps on giving. |
Bernie implementing "Free Rent" policy in Hillary's head 
The Great Divider |
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Palin
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Joined: 26 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Never liked her. 2016 by far had worst president candidates. |
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ContagiousInspiration
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Joined: 07 May 2014
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Location: Boulder ;)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| Probably a new badge of honor to not be liked by a corporate Dem |
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LarryCoon
Site Staff
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Posts: 11265
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: |
Sorry for limiting my question to 2 posters. BVH, CL, LC, Green, Surf, Wilt, everyone else. What do you think?
Is current American politics a river pushing us ever forward to the extreme right and all Democrats are doing is sticking their paddle into the river to slow the progression instead of pushing the canoe to the left (like we should be doing). |
Not much you can do, really. We're bifurcated into two populations, each with its own version of facts and truth. Tribalism, confirmation bias and the backfire effect takes over, and it becomes a huge uphill battle to convince even one person. With a single person I start by finding common ground, then use Socratic questioning to get them to work themselves into a contradiction they can't resolve. Problem is, we can't do that with 40 million people. The only thing we can do is hope we outnumber them, so we can win the vote and eventually return to something resembling normalcy.
But the two eye-opening lessons for me in this entire process have been: 1) It doesn't matter what facts, logic and truth are, if your audience is sequestered and being fed that THEIR version is rooted in facts, logic and truth. 2) There's a ton of tribalism, misogyny and racism that's been simmering very close to the surface of a lot of people, for a long time, just waiting to be tapped-into. |
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ChickenStu
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Location: Anaheim, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| LarryCoon wrote: | | kikanga wrote: |
Sorry for limiting my question to 2 posters. BVH, CL, LC, Green, Surf, Wilt, everyone else. What do you think?
Is current American politics a river pushing us ever forward to the extreme right and all Democrats are doing is sticking their paddle into the river to slow the progression instead of pushing the canoe to the left (like we should be doing). |
Not much you can do, really. We're bifurcated into two populations, each with its own version of facts and truth. Tribalism, confirmation bias and the backfire effect takes over, and it becomes a huge uphill battle to convince even one person. With a single person I start by finding common ground, then use Socratic questioning to get them to work themselves into a contradiction they can't resolve. Problem is, we can't do that with 40 million people. The only thing we can do is hope we outnumber them, so we can win the vote and eventually return to something resembling normalcy.
But the two eye-opening lessons for me in this entire process have been: 1) It doesn't matter what facts, logic and truth are, if your audience is sequestered and being fed that THEIR version is rooted in facts, logic and truth. 2) There's a ton of tribalism, misogyny and racism that's been simmering very close to the surface of a lot of people, for a long time, just waiting to be tapped-into. |
And the sad truth of even that statement is that this might not be enough. The Democrats have won the popular vote in two of the last three elections that they lost. The entire presidential election has basically turned into a contest of something like 10 states. |
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25092
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | Surfitall wrote: |
Well, well, well. So much for supporting the Democratic nominee no matter what. So much for Trump is an existential threat and the Democrats need to come together no matter who the nominee is. Really? “Nobody likes him.” Is this high school?
Hillary is the gift that just keeps on giving. |
Bernie implementing "Free Rent" policy in Hillary's head
The Great Divider |
won't commit to backing the democratic nominee if it's Sanders? even with Trump as president and might get 4 more years? wow |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: |
Well, well, well. So much for supporting the Democratic nominee no matter what. So much for Trump is an existential threat and the Democrats need to come together no matter who the nominee is. Really? “Nobody likes him.” Is this high school?
Hillary is the gift that just keeps on giving. |
Definitely not a good look for Hilary and certainly counterproductive. But I think it is worth noting that you conveniently ignore the fact that almost immediately after taking the pledge not to attack other Dems, Bernie intentionally designed his campaign staff to do exactly that. So let's not pretend that he's also not part of the problem.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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DaMuleRules
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Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | Surfitall wrote: |
Well, well, well. So much for supporting the Democratic nominee no matter what. So much for Trump is an existential threat and the Democrats need to come together no matter who the nominee is. Really? “Nobody likes him.” Is this high school?
Hillary is the gift that just keeps on giving. |
Bernie implementing "Free Rent" policy in Hillary's head
The Great Divider |
won't commit to backing the democratic nominee if it's Sanders? even with Trump as president and might get 4 more years? wow |
Not defend Hilary on this one. But if one read the article before it was "updated" to remove the actual comment about not endorsing, she says she won't do so now because it is still the Primaries.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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Surfitall
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Posts: 3829
Location: South Orange County
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Surfitall wrote: |
Well, well, well. So much for supporting the Democratic nominee no matter what. So much for Trump is an existential threat and the Democrats need to come together no matter who the nominee is. Really? “Nobody likes him.” Is this high school?
Hillary is the gift that just keeps on giving. |
Definitely not a good look for Hilary and certainly counterproductive. But I think it is worth noting that you conveniently ignore the fact that almost immediately after taking the pledge not to attack other Dems, Bernie intentionally designed his campaign staff to do exactly that. So let's not pretend that he's also not part of the problem. |
"He intentionally designed his campaign staff to do exactly that."? Can you elaborate on what you mean by that. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Surfitall wrote: |
Well, well, well. So much for supporting the Democratic nominee no matter what. So much for Trump is an existential threat and the Democrats need to come together no matter who the nominee is. Really? “Nobody likes him.” Is this high school?
Hillary is the gift that just keeps on giving. |
Definitely not a good look for Hilary and certainly counterproductive. But I think it is worth noting that you conveniently ignore the fact that almost immediately after taking the pledge not to attack other Dems, Bernie intentionally designed his campaign staff to do exactly that. So let's not pretend that he's also not part of the problem. |
"He intentionally designed his campaign staff to do exactly that."? Can you elaborate on what you mean by that. |
Putting Sirota on his staff.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25092
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | governator wrote: | | ContagiousInspiration wrote: | | Surfitall wrote: |
Well, well, well. So much for supporting the Democratic nominee no matter what. So much for Trump is an existential threat and the Democrats need to come together no matter who the nominee is. Really? “Nobody likes him.” Is this high school?
Hillary is the gift that just keeps on giving. |
Bernie implementing "Free Rent" policy in Hillary's head
The Great Divider |
won't commit to backing the democratic nominee if it's Sanders? even with Trump as president and might get 4 more years? wow |
Not defend Hilary on this one. But if one read the article before it was "updated" to remove the actual comment about not endorsing, she says she won't do so now because it is still the Primaries. |
She, just like Bernie has a large following and they will listen to those two, as long as either one don't pull a Tulsi and unite after the primary is over (whoever the nominee), it's primary season I guess |
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kaoss128
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Joined: 09 Apr 2006
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Location: Morgantown, WV
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:38 am Post subject: |
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And this is exactly why people didn’t want to vote for her. She attacked and belittled Bernie supporters in 2016 then cried foul and played the victim when they didn’t want to support her after she got the nomination. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: |
Not defend Hilary on this one. But if one read the article before it was "updated" to remove the actual comment about not endorsing, she says she won't do so now because it is still the Primaries. |
She, just like Bernie has a large following and they will listen to those two, as long as either one don't pull a Tulsi and unite after the primary is over (whoever the nominee), it's primary season I guess |
I don't disagree. I am simply pointing out the blatant intellectual dishonesty in the article's presentation. I know a lot of people here and elsewhere don't care about that kind of thing (and I'm not putting you in that group), but I think now more than ever truth and accuracy are critically important.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | governator wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: |
Not defend Hilary on this one. But if one read the article before it was "updated" to remove the actual comment about not endorsing, she says she won't do so now because it is still the Primaries. |
She, just like Bernie has a large following and they will listen to those two, as long as either one don't pull a Tulsi and unite after the primary is over (whoever the nominee), it's primary season I guess |
I don't disagree. I am simply pointing out the blatant intellectual dishonesty in the article's presentation. I know a lot of people here and elsewhere don't care about that kind of thing (and I'm not putting you in that group), but I think now more than ever truth and accuracy are critically important. |
I'm ok with that point of view. I think same thing happened to Sanders (articles trying to paint a broad pictures that he is sexist and racially tone deaf)
Last edited by governator on Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| kaoss128 wrote: |
And this is exactly why people didn’t want to vote for her. She attacked and belittled Bernie supporters in 2016 then cried foul and played the victim when they didn’t want to support her after she got the nomination. |
That's an extremely disingenuous description of the entirety that happened. Great numbers of Bernie supporters attacked Hillary mercilessly throughout the entire process starting from the very beginning. So let's not pretend they were some hapless victims of the "evil Hilary".
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Last edited by DaMuleRules on Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:05 am; edited 2 times in total |
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ChefLinda
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Location: Boston
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| kaoss128 wrote: |
And this is exactly why people didn’t want to vote for her. She attacked and belittled Bernie supporters in 2016 then cried foul and played the victim when they didn’t want to support her after she got the nomination. |
Except 65 million people did vote for her. 3 million more than Trump. And more than any white male in presidential election history -- only Obama got more popular votes.
I don't mind if individual people don't like Hillary, but I don't like urban myths regurgitated as facts either. A lot went wrong in 2016, and Hillary is responsible for her little piece of it - but MSM email obsession, Comey, Russians, racism, misogyny, electoral college, voter suppression, Facebook, and on and on.
Last edited by ChefLinda on Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | kaoss128 wrote: |
And this is exactly why people didn’t want to vote for her. She attacked and belittled Bernie supporters in 2016 then cried foul and played the victim when they didn’t want to support her after she got the nomination. |
That's an extremely disingenuous description of the entirety that happened. Great numbers of Bernie supporters attacked mercilessly Hillary throughout the entire process starting from the very beginning. So let's not pretend they were some hapless victims of the "evil Hilary". |
The misogyny on the left is no less repulsive than misogyny on the right. Misogyny dressed up in left wing populism is still misogyny. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| ContagiousInspiration wrote: | A Sham Impeachment trial is identical to election tampering and is NOT Democratic
Treason should not go unpunished.
Why do they ask for violence? If they're unwilling to follow the law then what other methods are left?
Someone should get Zelensky to give a video statement of facts.
Worst reply ever saying "this isn't an Impeachment it's a Coronation"
(bleep) you Republicans. I hope you ALL get windmill cancer |
It's an actual constitutional crisis and I have no idea what to do in response. There's no way to scare or shame them into getting back in line, Trump will weaponize the administration again to attack his political opponents, and will probably contest the legality of any outcome in which he doesn't win re-election. Is there a GoFundMe for the legal bills of protestors who want to blockade the Trump International in downtown DC 24/7 in sub-freezing weather or something?
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: |
Well, well, well. So much for supporting the Democratic nominee no matter what. So much for Trump is an existential threat and the Democrats need to come together no matter who the nominee is. Really? “Nobody likes him.” Is this high school?
Hillary is the gift that just keeps on giving. |
She technically hasn't not supported him as nominee yet. And she doesn't matter as long as Biden concedes before the convention and the Obamas get up on stage at the DNC this summer.
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kaoss128
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Location: Morgantown, WV
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | kaoss128 wrote: |
And this is exactly why people didn’t want to vote for her. She attacked and belittled Bernie supporters in 2016 then cried foul and played the victim when they didn’t want to support her after she got the nomination. |
Except 65 million people did vote for her. 3 million more than Trump. And more than any white male in presidential election history -- only Obama got more popular votes.
I don't mind if individual people don't like Hillary, but I don't like urban myths regurgitated as facts either. A lot went wrong in 2016, and Hillary is responsible for her little piece of it - but MSM email obsession, Comey, Russians, racism, misogyny, electoral college, voter suppression, Facebook, and on and on. |
Not wanting to do something is not the same thing as not doing it. Again she attacked and belittled Bernie’s supporters (as did her own supporters) and then cried and cried when she had trouble getting their support. |
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kaoss128
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | kaoss128 wrote: |
And this is exactly why people didn’t want to vote for her. She attacked and belittled Bernie supporters in 2016 then cried foul and played the victim when they didn’t want to support her after she got the nomination. |
That's an extremely disingenuous description of the entirety that happened. Great numbers of Bernie supporters attacked Hillary mercilessly throughout the entire process starting from the very beginning. So let's not pretend they were some hapless victims of the "evil Hilary". |
And Hillary consistently attacked them too. The difference being that Bernie supporters didn’t need Hilary’s support. Hillary needed their support and she did everything she could to burn that bridge during the primaries. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Surfitall wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | When you say "working class," I think what you mean is white working class.
If you look at exit polling from 2016, Clinton beat Trump by 12 points among voters that make under $50k. Doesn't get more workingclassier than that (Trump won the segment between $50 to $100k by three points, and they were tied with people above $100k). But when the media, Republicans, and Democrats like Tim Ryan say that we need to win back the working class, they mean people that look like Tim Ryan.
And you're right, people often don't vote according to their economic interests. If they did, we'd be having Marxist revolutions everywhere. There's all kinds of motivations, from good to bad.
Democrats began losing the white working class vote in the mid to late 60s, precisely because they did something positive: they passed civil rights legislation.
So Republicans, from Nixon all the way to Trump, have channeled much of the anger that the white working class has felt about how society and demographics were changing. The Democrats have never truly left them, always offering policies that would benefit the vast majority of the white working class. But the Republicans, with the help of the media and some Democrats, have spun history by saying the Democrats abandoned the white working class by not appealing to their economic interests. What the Democrats have refused to do, and rightly so, was to appeal to the aforementioned anger that the Republicans have exploited. For the Democrats to "win back" the working class vote, they'd have to be Republicans. And that's what Bernie doesn't understand (and that's what Marx failed to understand when he assumed all the working class people would want to rise up and/or vote for socialist parties)
So what we have now is people narrowly defining the working class and that they preferred Trump's economic ideas, refusing to admit that Trump has mainly appealed to them on cultural, racial lines. |
Interesting points. Here is an article from Politico that supports your point of view.
https://tinyurl.com/ybtg7oqm
Here is a different perspective from the HBR:
https://tinyurl.com/j3ohvtw |
Is there a more recent article you can find than the latter piece from Harvard Business Review? It was really easy to sell WWC narrative pieces immediately after the election's outcome - Cy Vance turned his Space Chicken Lawyer routine into a book deal and a movie - so a sober article more distant from November 2016 contending with the same issues might be even more illuminating.
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Pointing out that many Bernie supporters attacked Hillary and her supporters on line is not the same as "attacking Bernie supporters." If you as an individual Bernie supporter didn't attack women online, then she wasn't talking about you.
And it's now also true that many online Bernie supporters are attacking Warren and her supporters. |
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Baron Von Humongous
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Anyway, the Supreme Court won't take up the most recent legal challenge to the ACA until next fall and won't have a ruling until 2021 when a potentially re-elected Trump could appoint an additional conservative justice or two.
Roberts is a conservative hack, example no. 247.
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Surfitall
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| Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | Pointing out that many Bernie supporters attacked Hillary and her supporters on line is not the same as "attacking Bernie supporters." If you as an individual Bernie supporter didn't attack women online, then she wasn't talking about you. |
Kind of like labeling a percentage of Trump supporters as the basket of deplorables. If you aren't one of them, then she isn't talking about you either!
For some reason though, people take offense anyway. It's almost as though painting some supporters of a political opponent with a broad negative brush has negative political ramifications when you need to try to bring the people you weren't talking about back into the fold. Go figure. |
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