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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:50 pm    Post subject:

MLB says they investigated the use of wearable devices and found no evidence to substantiate it. Given that the players confessed to everything else, it’s hard to believe that they hid this. Unless something more substantial comes out, this is likely just part of the social media frenzy.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:58 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
MLB says they investigated the use of wearable devices and found no evidence to substantiate it. Given that the players confessed to everything else, it’s hard to believe that they hid this. Unless something more substantial comes out, this is likely just part of the social media frenzy.


A wearable "system" could be confined to as few as 2 or 3 guys. It would be much easier to keep quiet.
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ChickenStu
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:12 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
MLB says they investigated the use of wearable devices and found no evidence to substantiate it. Given that the players confessed to everything else, it’s hard to believe that they hid this. Unless something more substantial comes out, this is likely just part of the social media frenzy.


This means very little to me. That doesn't mean it's a slam-dunk that they, indeed, had a buzzer system, but it's looking awfully suspicious. And recall the NFL trying to claim that they didn't have enough evidence to support a stronger ban for Ray Rice initially, and then TMZ was able to obtain the footage of him doing what he did with relative ease.

If there ends up being substantiated evidence that some players were using electronic buzzing devices as recently as the 2019 ALCS, it's a really ugly problem for MLB. And perhaps that is why they didn't want that coming out, and saying that they "found no evidence to substantiate it" gives them an out. If the evidence does actually come to light, they can just say they weren't aware of it and perhaps do something further.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:14 pm    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
MLB says they investigated the use of wearable devices and found no evidence to substantiate it. Given that the players confessed to everything else, it’s hard to believe that they hid this. Unless something more substantial comes out, this is likely just part of the social media frenzy.


A wearable "system" could be confined to as few as 2 or 3 guys. It would be much easier to keep quiet.


or they only confessed to what they thought MLB already knew about.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:24 pm    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
MLB says they investigated the use of wearable devices and found no evidence to substantiate it. Given that the players confessed to everything else, it’s hard to believe that they hid this. Unless something more substantial comes out, this is likely just part of the social media frenzy.


A wearable "system" could be confined to as few as 2 or 3 guys. It would be much easier to keep quiet.


It could be confined to 2 or 3 guys, but why would you do that? Also, you would still need the people doing the decoding to transmit a signal, plus everyone in the locker room would see what was underneath the jerseys. MLB must have heard about this theory, or else they would not have investigated it. Here is how MLB described its investigation:

Quote:
The investigation was led by Bryan Seeley and Moira Weinberg of the DOI, who both have substantial experience investigating baseball operations matters. The investigation covered the period from 2016 through the present. During the investigation, the DOI interviewed 68 witnesses, including 23 current and former Astros players. Some witnesses were interviewed multiple times. The DOI also reviewed tens of thousands of emails, Slack communications, text messages, video clips, and photographs. The Astros fully cooperated with the investigation, producing all requested electronic communications and making all requested employees available for interviews. Upon request, certain Astros employees provided their cellular telephones to be imaged and searched.


Is it possible that the Astros covered this up and that MLB missed it? I can't disprove a conspiracy theory.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:45 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
MLB says they investigated the use of wearable devices and found no evidence to substantiate it. Given that the players confessed to everything else, it’s hard to believe that they hid this. Unless something more substantial comes out, this is likely just part of the social media frenzy.


A wearable "system" could be confined to as few as 2 or 3 guys. It would be much easier to keep quiet.


It could be confined to 2 or 3 guys, but why would you do that? Also, you would still need the people doing the decoding to transmit a signal, plus everyone in the locker room would see what was underneath the jerseys. MLB must have heard about this theory, or else they would not have investigated it. Here is how MLB described its investigation:

Quote:
The investigation was led by Bryan Seeley and Moira Weinberg of the DOI, who both have substantial experience investigating baseball operations matters. The investigation covered the period from 2016 through the present. During the investigation, the DOI interviewed 68 witnesses, including 23 current and former Astros players. Some witnesses were interviewed multiple times. The DOI also reviewed tens of thousands of emails, Slack communications, text messages, video clips, and photographs. The Astros fully cooperated with the investigation, producing all requested electronic communications and making all requested employees available for interviews. Upon request, certain Astros employees provided their cellular telephones to be imaged and searched.


Is it possible that the Astros covered this up and that MLB missed it? I can't disprove a conspiracy theory.


You can't prove a negative. It seems like a lot of effort to duplicate an already existing cheat so it's unlikely in my mind.

But, considering the size of MLB paychecks, how much could a tier 2 hitter make by setting up his own system with a few "employees" and move up to a tier 1 paycheck?
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jonnybravo
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:53 pm    Post subject:

epak wrote:
LOL. I hope the Mike Trout HGH tweet is true too. Get em!



I really hope it's not true . It's special to watch a GOAT in his prime. I'd hate for his name to be sullied.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:08 pm    Post subject:

^Same here. Some are saying it’s based off some old rumor from social media years back, likely the 3B coach’s son hoping to stir things up.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:38 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
You have things like Carlos Beltran's niece talking about the players using buzzers


Nope. That was a hoax. It was someone with a burner account. "She" also tweeted a bunch of stuff about the Yankees having cameras in the bullpen and Gleyber Torres wearing a buzzer. In this feeding frenzy, people were eating it up.
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ChickenStu
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:03 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
You have things like Carlos Beltran's niece talking about the players using buzzers


Nope. That was a hoax. It was someone with a burner account. "She" also tweeted a bunch of stuff about the Yankees having cameras in the bullpen and Gleyber Torres wearing a buzzer. In this feeding frenzy, people were eating it up.


Ah, thanks. Definitely a feeding frenzy out there right now.
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epak
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:19 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
You have things like Carlos Beltran's niece talking about the players using buzzers


Nope. That was a hoax. It was someone with a burner account. "She" also tweeted a bunch of stuff about the Yankees having cameras in the bullpen and Gleyber Torres wearing a buzzer. In this feeding frenzy, people were eating it up.


Ah, thanks. Definitely a feeding frenzy out there right now.


The family came out and said the Tweeter wasn't a part of the family.
So if you take their word, the Tweeter is not the niece of Carlos.
But the Tweeter did have some inside info, or they knew things about Carlos' hiring and firing before media reports. Gary Jr. did come out and say it's a burner account of a player. But again, who knows.

I'm just hoping for some real evidence to come out against them... well, besides the already proven sign stealing evidence.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:04 pm    Post subject:

I've been saying this since the 1980s -- a lifetime ban ends when the player dies. It's not a nerdy distinction. Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson may not merit the honor of standing on the stage and being inducted into the Hall of Fame, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28502513/source-mlb-ineligible-list-ends-death-banned-players

So, let's assume that this really goes through and that the Hall of Fame goes along with it. (The Hall of Fame is not run by MLB, so in theory it can do whatever it wants.) Should Shoeless Joe Jackson be inducted? Despite all of the hype over the years, it isn't a slam dunk.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jacksjo01.shtml

These are dead ball era numbers. Furthermore, if you start comparing him to other players from his era who are in the Hall of Fame, he is well above the standard for enshinement. So I would say Yes.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:06 pm    Post subject:

A congressman from Illinois is getting involved, this thing is NOT going to die, and it shouldn't.
Players are now being quoted as wanting punishment for the cheating players so the players union might have an issue placating 3 or 4 players, Vs. 30 or 40 players.

Altuve and Bregman will never. Ever. Reach the hall of fame...
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:13 pm    Post subject:

Welcome to the party, Tony LaRussa.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28503160/jack-mcdowell-says-tony-la-russa-had-sign-stealing-system-white-sox-80s
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:24 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Welcome to the party, Tony LaRussa.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28503160/jack-mcdowell-says-tony-la-russa-had-sign-stealing-system-white-sox-80s


Quote:
McDowell, who made his major league debut for the White Sox in 1987 and pitched for 12 seasons in the majors, never played for La Russa, who was fired by the White Sox during the previous season.



Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Not sure how much of this to believe. But with the state of things, I have the lowest levels of doubt I've ever had. The way MLB wants to handle these things, we won't know anything about it unless people keep making noise about it.

Having been a lifelong Cardinal fan I always thought our catcher Molina was very sensitive to sign stealing. Almost paranoid. I remember controversies we've had where baseballs weren't being properly rubbed down in certain stadiums which made it harder to pitchers to get a good grip, with veterans like John Smoltz attesting to that.

Now it seems like Molina and the Cardinals were right to be so paranoid. This kind of "gamesmanship" is rampant. If Larussa was dirty, then possibly he would have a better inkling into what to look for from opposing teams.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:43 pm    Post subject:

I have no doubt that there have been many sign stealing schemes over the years. The Astros cranked it up to 11 and then kept doing it after Manfred and MLB told everyone that there would be severe punishment in the future. That’s what infuriates me. The LaRussa allegation, if substantiated, opens a can of worms because it’s cheating. I do not buy the “everyone cheats” defense in this context any more than I buy it for the steroids crowd. Cheating is cheating. But when MLB cracks down publicly, and you keep doing it, that is a mixture of arrogance and stupidity that makes me livid.
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ChickenStu
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:22 pm    Post subject:

Come to think of it, LaRussa's Oakland A's teams in the late 80's/early 90's were notoriously roided up.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:46 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I have no doubt that there have been many sign stealing schemes over the years. The Astros cranked it up to 11 and then kept doing it after Manfred and MLB told everyone that there would be severe punishment in the future. That’s what infuriates me. The LaRussa allegation, if substantiated, opens a can of worms because it’s cheating. I do not buy the “everyone cheats” defense in this context any more than I buy it for the steroids crowd. Cheating is cheating. But when MLB cracks down publicly, and you keep doing it, that is a mixture of arrogance and stupidity that makes me livid.


Yup. Not stopping when the memo came out was beyond dumb.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:53 am    Post subject:

Asterisks strikeout rate from '13-'19

https://twitter.com/apollack93/status/1195185737865535488

Crazy.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:51 am    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:
Asterisks strikeout rate from '13-'19

https://twitter.com/apollack93/status/1195185737865535488

Crazy.


That’s a misleading chart. The 2013 Astros lost 111 games. It was a young team that matured in the following seasons. They had Chris Carter, who was a strikeout machine. The relevant disparity is 2016 to 2017, as the 538 guy illustrated. It’s interesting that the rate was almost as low in 2019 as 2017.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:24 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Ziggy wrote:
Asterisks strikeout rate from '13-'19

https://twitter.com/apollack93/status/1195185737865535488

Crazy.


That’s a misleading chart. The 2013 Astros lost 111 games. It was a young team that matured in the following seasons. They had Chris Carter, who was a strikeout machine. The relevant disparity is 2016 to 2017, as the 538 guy illustrated. It’s interesting that the rate was almost as low in 2019 as 2017.
Even more interesting to see the rate in 2020.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:25 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Ziggy wrote:
Asterisks strikeout rate from '13-'19

https://twitter.com/apollack93/status/1195185737865535488

Crazy.


That’s a misleading chart. The 2013 Astros lost 111 games. It was a young team that matured in the following seasons. They had Chris Carter, who was a strikeout machine. The relevant disparity is 2016 to 2017, as the 538 guy illustrated. It’s interesting that the rate was almost as low in 2019 as 2017.


I don't know how misleading it is, but here's the numbers w/o Chris Carter in them:


2013
w/ Carter - 25.5%
w/o Carter - 24.3%
mlb rank: 30th
AL rank: 15th

2014
w/ Carter - 23.8%
w/o Carter - 23.0%
mlb rank: 29th
AL rank: 15th

2015
w/ Carter - 22.9%
w/o Carter - 22.1%
mlb rank: 27th
AL rank: 14th

2016
w/ Carter - 23.4%
w/o Carter - 22.4%
mlb rank: 24th
AL rank: 13th
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject:

Cardinals Manager Mike Shildt says they noticed some of the things going on around the league, and that teams were cheating. They had a discussion as a team about what to do about it, and decided as a team that they would not also cheat.

So, he's acknowledging that people were cheating in 2019, and that it was more than one team. Also they had to ask themselves if they should cheat or not, since other teams were, and thankfully decided against it.

Thinking about this as a Cardinals fan and I wonder how good our outfielders Harrison Bader and Tyler O'Neill could be if they knew a slider was coming. Instead they whiff at it like that bugs bunny scene where people swing and miss 3 times at one pitch. Which really drives home, for me, how much knowing what pitch is coming can affect the outcome at the plate.

I'm just hoping the new edition of OOTP 2020 has a sign stealing cheat enabled so I can see how good my guys would be.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:00 pm    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:
Asterisks strikeout rate from '13-'19

https://twitter.com/apollack93/status/1195185737865535488

Crazy.


The Asterisks!
Love it

I always went with "Lastros"
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:54 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
MLB says they investigated the use of wearable devices and found no evidence to substantiate it. Given that the players confessed to everything else, it’s hard to believe that they hid this. Unless something more substantial comes out, this is likely just part of the social media frenzy.


Yeah, that's too bad. I really wanted them to find more incriminating evidence. Still pissed and think they should vacate the titles.
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