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governator
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:19 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Wait. So NOW you believe there might be forces out there sewing division?


I never said there weren’t.


Sure you have. You're just conveniently selective in where you acknowledge it occurs.

To be fair though, I think it is questionable that CL denounces people for posting anti-Biden pieces and then posts something like that Bernie piece.


No, I haven’t. I’ve posted negative things about Biden (his creepy behavior around females, the issue with Hunter Biden...long before it became a mainstream rallying cry by Trump I might add), not because I don’t believe that it doesn’t occur, but precisely because I believe it does occur, and I wanted people here to understand what they were walking into by selecting him as their candidate. In my opinion, Biden has always been the most vulnerable of our leading candidates for these types of attacks.


I'm referring to Russian interference in regards to Gabbard. As for the "Creepy Joe" stuff, it has been so overblown and misrepresented and it's insulting that you pretend you just post it so that "people know the vulnerability".


Do you guys, Omar, DMR, Chef, really believe that Bernie said that about Warren and he is sexist in general?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:25 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Wait. So NOW you believe there might be forces out there sewing division?


I never said there weren’t.


Sure you have. You're just conveniently selective in where you acknowledge it occurs.

To be fair though, I think it is questionable that CL denounces people for posting anti-Biden pieces and then posts something like that Bernie piece.


No, I haven’t. I’ve posted negative things about Biden (his creepy behavior around females, the issue with Hunter Biden...long before it became a mainstream rallying cry by Trump I might add), not because I don’t believe that it doesn’t occur, but precisely because I believe it does occur, and I wanted people here to understand what they were walking into by selecting him as their candidate. In my opinion, Biden has always been the most vulnerable of our leading candidates for these types of attacks.


I'm referring to Russian interference in regards to Gabbard. As for the "Creepy Joe" stuff, it has been so overblown and misrepresented and it's insulting that you pretend you just post it so that "people know the vulnerability".


Do you guys, Omar, DMR, Chef, really believe that Bernie said that about Warren and he is sexist in general?


I believe he said it to warren as she confirmed, and I already said what I think about it. I think I get where he was coming from with the comment. I also get that it’s pretty good politics from Warren.
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governator
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:34 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
governator wrote:


Do you guys, Omar, DMR, Chef, really believe that Bernie said that about Warren and he is sexist in general?


I believe he said it to warren as she confirmed, and I already said what I think about it. I think I get where he was coming from with the comment. I also get that it’s pretty good politics from Warren.


feels like a political hit and Bernie is not actually a sexist person (not mansplaining here, just what it feels like). If Warren is painting a picture that is stretching Bernie's words, not as intended, that might be the bad part
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:44 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
governator wrote:


Do you guys, Omar, DMR, Chef, really believe that Bernie said that about Warren and he is sexist in general?


I believe he said it to warren as she confirmed, and I already said what I think about it. I think I get where he was coming from with the comment. I also get that it’s pretty good politics from Warren.


feels like a political hit and Bernie is not actually a sexist person (not mansplaining here, just what it feels like). If Warren is painting a picture that is stretching Bernie's words, not as intended, that might be the bad part


In fairness the other way, Bernie had a huge issue with complaints from female staffers about treatment by the campaign in 16, and while I can understand your point, if he told Elizabeth Warren he didn’t think a woman could win, she’s entitled to air that and he’s entitled to explain it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:52 am    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
California's new gig law means that Uber will show a price range instead of fixed amount before your ride, your total charge will be decided after you're dropped off

https://www.businessinsider.com/uber-stops-upfront-ride-pricing-in-response-to-california-worker-law-2020-1


California decided to "disrupt" Uber's business model. Smart.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:53 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Wait. So NOW you believe there might be forces out there sewing division?


I never said there weren’t.


Sure you have. You're just conveniently selective in where you acknowledge it occurs.

To be fair though, I think it is questionable that CL denounces people for posting anti-Biden pieces and then posts something like that Bernie piece.


No, I haven’t. I’ve posted negative things about Biden (his creepy behavior around females, the issue with Hunter Biden...long before it became a mainstream rallying cry by Trump I might add), not because I don’t believe that it doesn’t occur, but precisely because I believe it does occur, and I wanted people here to understand what they were walking into by selecting him as their candidate. In my opinion, Biden has always been the most vulnerable of our leading candidates for these types of attacks.


I'm referring to Russian interference in regards to Gabbard. As for the "Creepy Joe" stuff, it has been so overblown and misrepresented and it's insulting that you pretend you just post it so that "people know the vulnerability".


Do you guys, Omar, DMR, Chef, really believe that Bernie said that about Warren and he is sexist in general?


While I think there is some weight to some of the apparent past issues in that regard, I don't think he is sexist in the concrete sense. I just think he is of an age where attitudes in regards to gender were less enlightened than they are and should be now. This piece clearly misrepresented the actual content and context of the alleged quote "a woman can't win". He didn't say those words (as even Warren stated). He expressed a concern for the fact (in his perception) that in the political climate there is a disadvantage for a woman candidate. That's not a sexist attitude, but an acknowledgement of a political reality at the moment (as CL pointed out earlier).
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:56 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
governator wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
governator wrote:


Do you guys, Omar, DMR, Chef, really believe that Bernie said that about Warren and he is sexist in general?


I believe he said it to warren as she confirmed, and I already said what I think about it. I think I get where he was coming from with the comment. I also get that it’s pretty good politics from Warren.


feels like a political hit and Bernie is not actually a sexist person (not mansplaining here, just what it feels like). If Warren is painting a picture that is stretching Bernie's words, not as intended, that might be the bad part


In fairness the other way, Bernie had a huge issue with complaints from female staffers about treatment by the campaign in 16, and while I can understand your point, if he told Elizabeth Warren he didn’t think a woman could win, she’s entitled to air that and he’s entitled to explain it.


I see this as pretty much a nothing-burger. If Bernie said it, this is an observation on how he sees the people are (and some are) and not a judgement of whether they are correct in their assessment--unless, of course, he was suggesting that Warren should then drop out as a result.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:04 am    Post subject:

Here's a guy who has no problem broadcasting it:

Joe Biden Said Hillary Clinton Faced Sexism, But ‘That’s Not Going To Happen With Me’
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:17 am    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
governator wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
governator wrote:


Do you guys, Omar, DMR, Chef, really believe that Bernie said that about Warren and he is sexist in general?


I believe he said it to warren as she confirmed, and I already said what I think about it. I think I get where he was coming from with the comment. I also get that it’s pretty good politics from Warren.


feels like a political hit and Bernie is not actually a sexist person (not mansplaining here, just what it feels like). If Warren is painting a picture that is stretching Bernie's words, not as intended, that might be the bad part


In fairness the other way, Bernie had a huge issue with complaints from female staffers about treatment by the campaign in 16, and while I can understand your point, if he told Elizabeth Warren he didn’t think a woman could win, she’s entitled to air that and he’s entitled to explain it.


I see this as pretty much a nothing-burger. If Bernie said it, this is an observation on how he sees the people are (and some are) and not a judgement of whether they are correct in their assessment--unless, of course, he was suggesting that Warren should then drop out as a result.


It's a distraction that sucks up much needed oxygen on important topics. Biden's on the ropes, spinning like a rotisserie chicken on his Iraqi war support, and here's Warren basically tossing him an out. I think this may backfire on her.

Still probably smart politics given where she is in the polls. She needs to badly change the trajectory of her campaign.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:45 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Wait. So NOW you believe there might be forces out there sewing division?


I never said there weren’t.


Sure you have. You're just conveniently selective in where you acknowledge it occurs.

To be fair though, I think it is questionable that CL denounces people for posting anti-Biden pieces and then posts something like that Bernie piece.


No, I haven’t. I’ve posted negative things about Biden (his creepy behavior around females, the issue with Hunter Biden...long before it became a mainstream rallying cry by Trump I might add), not because I don’t believe that it doesn’t occur, but precisely because I believe it does occur, and I wanted people here to understand what they were walking into by selecting him as their candidate. In my opinion, Biden has always been the most vulnerable of our leading candidates for these types of attacks.


I'm referring to Russian interference in regards to Gabbard. As for the "Creepy Joe" stuff, it has been so overblown and misrepresented and it's insulting that you pretend you just post it so that "people know the vulnerability".


If you look at how long ago I first posted about Biden, you'll note that several people chimed in and said they had no idea. If I posted it now, yeah, it probably would be insulting to people in this forum (although my fear is that middle America has not seen that imagery yet, and won't until he is the nominee).

Back to Gabbard? A key point with the Gabbard discussion was that she was being smeared by the mainstream media. Absolutely there were forces trying to make sure her campaign was being crushed, and they were very successful. Might there have been other forces, including Russia, that wanted her to win and made efforts to that end? Sure, and if there were, they were not successful at all. Now if you are suggesting that Tulsi Gabbard is an agent of a foreign government working to create division...no, I have not seen evidence that makes me believe that...but I did see a lot of smears.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:48 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
It's a distraction that sucks up much needed oxygen on important topics. Biden's on the ropes, spinning like a rotisserie chicken on his Iraqi war support, and here's Warren basically tossing him an out. I think this may backfire on her.

Still probably smart politics given where she is in the polls. She needs to badly change the trajectory of her campaign.


Biden isn't very high on my list. But I wouldn't describe him as on the ropes. At this point it looks like a 2 horse race. And he's one of them.

I haven't given any attention to this story so I don't know the details. But it's common sense to say sexism exists. And it's harmful to Warren's campaign.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:58 am    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Wait. So NOW you believe there might be forces out there sewing division?


I never said there weren’t.


Sure you have. You're just conveniently selective in where you acknowledge it occurs.

To be fair though, I think it is questionable that CL denounces people for posting anti-Biden pieces and then posts something like that Bernie piece.


No, I haven’t. I’ve posted negative things about Biden (his creepy behavior around females, the issue with Hunter Biden...long before it became a mainstream rallying cry by Trump I might add), not because I don’t believe that it doesn’t occur, but precisely because I believe it does occur, and I wanted people here to understand what they were walking into by selecting him as their candidate. In my opinion, Biden has always been the most vulnerable of our leading candidates for these types of attacks.


I'm referring to Russian interference in regards to Gabbard. As for the "Creepy Joe" stuff, it has been so overblown and misrepresented and it's insulting that you pretend you just post it so that "people know the vulnerability".


If you look at how long ago I first posted about Biden, you'll note that several people chimed in and said they had no idea. If I posted it now, yeah, it probably would be insulting to people in this forum (although my fear is that middle America has not seen that imagery yet, and won't until he is the nominee).

Back to Gabbard? A key point with the Gabbard discussion was that she was being smeared by the mainstream media. Absolutely there were forces trying to make sure her campaign was being crushed, and they were very successful. Might there have been other forces, including Russia, that wanted her to win and made efforts to that end? Sure, and if there were, they were not successful at all. Now if you are suggesting that Tulsi Gabbard is an agent of a foreign government working to create division...no, I have not seen evidence that makes me believe that...but I did see a lot of smears.


It wasn't the timing that was insulting. The obvious motivation behind it while acting as if it was simply to "make people aware" was what was insulting.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:11 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
It's a distraction that sucks up much needed oxygen on important topics. Biden's on the ropes, spinning like a rotisserie chicken on his Iraqi war support, and here's Warren basically tossing him an out. I think this may backfire on her.

Still probably smart politics given where she is in the polls. She needs to badly change the trajectory of her campaign.


Biden isn't very high on my list. But I wouldn't describe him as on the ropes. At this point it looks like a 2 horse race. And he's one of them.

I haven't given any attention to this story so I don't know the details. But it's common sense to say sexism exists. And it's harmful to Warren's campaign.


Exposing his chin then. He's still the favorite, but Trump's Iran debacle has provided an excellent oppotunity to walk down memory lane. Even CNN is hitting him on it.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/06/politics/fact-check-biden-iraq-war-repeat-iowa/index.html

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-keilar-grills-biden-foreign-policy-advisor-why-does-he-keep-misrepresenting-his-iraq-war-record/
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:16 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Here's a guy who has no problem broadcasting it:

Joe Biden Said Hillary Clinton Faced Sexism, But ‘That’s Not Going To Happen With Me’


Let me guess, Bernies heart attack is Biden's fault as well?

#whataboutism
#farleftsameasfarright
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:26 am    Post subject:

Meanwhile, Biden takes the lead in New Hampshire:

https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/01/13/joe-biden-pulls-ahead-in-new-hampshire-elizabeth-warren-drops-to-third-poll/

Wait, aren't Bernie and Warren from New England?!
Oof.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:28 am    Post subject:

eddiejonze wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Here's a guy who has no problem broadcasting it:

Joe Biden Said Hillary Clinton Faced Sexism, But ‘That’s Not Going To Happen With Me’


Let me guess, Bernies heart attack is Biden's fault as well?

#whataboutism
#farleftsameasfarright


I think that's the problem with both (article about Bernie's comment of Warren and this Biden's article), it spins both comment into painting both men as sexist
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:36 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Surfitall wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Wait. So NOW you believe there might be forces out there sewing division?


I never said there weren’t.


Sure you have. You're just conveniently selective in where you acknowledge it occurs.

To be fair though, I think it is questionable that CL denounces people for posting anti-Biden pieces and then posts something like that Bernie piece.


That's a fair point. I held off posting about it for that reason. But when Warren herself came out with a statement confirming it, then it became "today's news" in my mind (as opposed to pulling up a vote someone took 20 years ago and trying to turn it into today's news). Another thing that factored into my decision to post it -- in 2016 I let a lot of anti-Hillary nonsense go without responding to it. When she lost I regretted not standing up for her more vocally before the election. I also hold back on posting too much Warren stuff because I figure it annoys people and they already know her positions. But not addressing the sexism component of her run for the presidency seems not to be an option if I don't want a repeat of 2016.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:41 am    Post subject:

Women can also have sexist (i.e.,"traditional") attitudes toward other women seeking power. In fact many do. And many people (both men and women) who have internalized our culture's innate sexism probably don't realize it and would probably deny it if you asked them. That's why we need to discuss these things in the open so people can re-examine their beliefs and hopefully break through long-held beliefs about women and men and our roles in society.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:48 am    Post subject:

eddiejonze wrote:
Meanwhile, Biden takes the lead in New Hampshire:

https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/01/13/joe-biden-pulls-ahead-in-new-hampshire-elizabeth-warren-drops-to-third-poll/

Wait, aren't Bernie and Warren from New England?!
Oof.


My personal thoughts: New Hampshire is very, how shall I say this, old school. They like guns and freedom. It's a very rural state.

New England in general also has a sexism problem. Massachusetts has never elected a woman governor and Warren was the first female senator. Despite being "liberal" we don't have a very good track record on electing women to major office. Yes, even progressive men (and women) can have "old school" views of women and their place in society.

I don't know if that's part of the polling result, but I wouldn't be surprised.

And if you had simply posted the article without the shot at Warren (Oof) I probably would have keep reading and not felt the need to comment.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:56 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Here's a guy who has no problem broadcasting it:

Joe Biden Said Hillary Clinton Faced Sexism, But ‘That’s Not Going To Happen With Me’


And I have no problem with either Bernie or Joe or anyone else pointing out the truth that a woman starts from a disadvantage. And if that's what his statement was to Elizabeth, no problem with me. If he told her she or another woman can't win, that's a bit more problematic, but again, Bernie isn't running on the great awareness of how much of the world works platform.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:58 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
eddiejonze wrote:
Meanwhile, Biden takes the lead in New Hampshire:

https://www.bostonherald.com/2020/01/13/joe-biden-pulls-ahead-in-new-hampshire-elizabeth-warren-drops-to-third-poll/

Wait, aren't Bernie and Warren from New England?!
Oof.


My personal thoughts: New Hampshire is very, how shall I say this, old school. They like guns and freedom. It's a very rural state.

New England in general also has a sexism problem. Massachusetts has never elected a woman governor and Warren was the first female senator. Despite being "liberal" we don't have a very good track record on electing women to major office. Yes, even progressive men (and women) can have "old school" views of women and their place in society.

I don't know if that's part of the polling result, but I wouldn't be surprised.

And if you had simply posted the article without the shot at Warren (Oof) I probably would have keep reading and not felt the need to comment.


I keep pointing out that the state is more Democratic than liberal. There's a strong liberal component but also a strong working class Democratic vibe that is not exactly liberal. Much like (in a very different culture) West Virginia was Democratic for a while (because of Unions) but not ever liberal.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:06 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
On one level, I don’t disagree with Bernie’s negativity about a woman’s chances in a presidential election. A woman I dated years ago once told me that we’d elect a black man before a white woman. Her reasoning is that white men could stomach that better. There’s some truth to that still. Hillary lost in part due to that sexism.


I recall one of those insipid CNN segments in 08 where they asked black women what they would prefer first, black man or Hillary, (her whiteness hinted at, but iirc probably not blatantly pointed out). Responses were a lot more "either would be good" than CNN was hinting or suggesting they'd be -- not the first time they've missed the pulse of a demographic. It didn't help that Hillary's white female cohorts voted 53% for DT. Bernie's girls didn't wanna hear about voting for a woman when it came to her either. So, perhaps the particular person filling the demo(s) is still all-important.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:09 am    Post subject:

I'm also upset that the top candidates left in the race are all white. We had a terrific diverse field and that fact extremely qualified and great candidates of color couldn't even get funded through the first vote in Iowa is sad and unfortunate. And the racial component can't simply be swept under the carpet. Just like people have internalized their views on gender, they have internalized their views on race. That doesn't mean people are racist, but race apparently did play a role into who they gave money to. I donated to Kamala Harris, Julian Castro and Cory Booker because I wanted them in the race even if they weren't my first choice.

As a liberal Democrat I feel greatly distressed that mostly white men (Warren being the exception) are once again populating the top tier. Bloomberg basically bought his way into the top tier and Steyer basically bought his way onto the debate stage. And in effect it was at the expense of the candidates of color. There is something very, very wrong with that that doesn't represent the Democratic party the I believe in.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:11 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
kikanga wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
It's a distraction that sucks up much needed oxygen on important topics. Biden's on the ropes, spinning like a rotisserie chicken on his Iraqi war support, and here's Warren basically tossing him an out. I think this may backfire on her.

Still probably smart politics given where she is in the polls. She needs to badly change the trajectory of her campaign.


Biden isn't very high on my list. But I wouldn't describe him as on the ropes. At this point it looks like a 2 horse race. And he's one of them.

I haven't given any attention to this story so I don't know the details. But it's common sense to say sexism exists. And it's harmful to Warren's campaign.


Exposing his chin then. He's still the favorite, but Trump's Iran debacle has provided an excellent oppotunity to walk down memory lane. Even CNN is hitting him on it.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/06/politics/fact-check-biden-iraq-war-repeat-iowa/index.html

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/cnns-keilar-grills-biden-foreign-policy-advisor-why-does-he-keep-misrepresenting-his-iraq-war-record/


The Iraq War isn't in the forefront of people's minds like it was in '08.
People have been attacking Biden's history since he joined the race. And it hasn't knocked him down the totem pole yet
Not saying that it's smart or fair to give him a pass. Just saying it is what it is.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:12 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
I'm also upset that the top candidates left in the race are all white. We had a terrific diverse field and that fact extremely qualified and great candidates of color couldn't even get funded through the first vote in Iowa is sad and unfortunate. And the racial component can't simply be swept under the carpet. Just like people have internalized their views on gender, they have internalized their views on race. That doesn't mean people are racist, but race apparently did play a role into who they gave money to. I donated to Kamala Harris, Julian Castro and Cory Booker because I wanted them in the race even if they weren't my first choice.

As a liberal Democrat I feel greatly distressed that mostly white men (Warren being the exception) are once again populating the top tier. Bloomberg basically bought his way into the top tier and Steyer basically bought his way onto the debate stage. And in effect it was at the expense of the candidates of color. There is something very, very wrong with that that doesn't represent the Democratic party the I believe in.


Congress gives me hope. As I often point out to young Berners, this is where you build power and create actual legislation. It takes some time, but as women and people of color and progressives own more and more seats, they will become more and more likely to field successful presidential candidates.
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