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yinoma2001
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 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:10 am Post subject: |
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PG or KL is playing “PF?” Good luck with that.
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Vancouver Fan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Karmaloop wrote: | | Vancouver Fan wrote: | | You know what's very telling? How Laker fans are so concerned about the Clippers. |
Are we going to sit here and pretend the Clippers aren't a real threat? We're on a message board, and it's the offseason. |
Oh i realise they're a threat and built a real squad about to hit it's prime.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| UKUGA wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | trablos wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Clippers didn’t just give up those assets for PG.
It was also for Kawhi.
So it seems like an overpay when you look only at the transaction details, but in reality, the trade includes Kawhi Leonard. No trade for PG = no commitment from Kawhi. |
You could say the same about us, we gave up the kids to pair two superstars together. We both had the same goal as an end result, pairing two stars as the core of your team. It's also very reasonable to say that if LBJ doesn't come, AD isn't even thinking about the Lakers and we are stuck maxing Dlo and Randle. |
The comparison isnt the goal of pairing two stars together.
It’s a comparison of the transactions.
Kawhi was directly tied to the transaction for PG. I mean he basically told the Clippers get PG and you get me. |
At the base, it is a comparison of the transaction, but posters are allowed to critically think their way to a deeper look, as many have done.
The thread has held together pretty well as many have noted that the Clippers, who were touted as having "2 max cap slots" heading into the summer, wound up over-paying for George to salvage their ability to sign KL.
They did what they needed to do, but it's FAR from what was envisioned at the start of the summer.
Imagine the Clippers sliding KL and Durant into cap space (maybe making some minor salary dumps), while keeping their talented roster from a year ago, along with all those picks.
They were not able to do that. |
Clippers didn't have enough cap space for KL and Durant. They only had around $50M or so in cap space. But either way, that's an irrelevant point at least in terms of the point of the question.
The discussion should be merely within the context and details surrounding the PG acquisition vs the context and details DIRECTLY surrounding the AD acquisition. Going deeper is great, going sideways is pointless unless there are other motives at play here in terms of where we are trying to end up.
When we're comparing the price paid for PG, we have to factor in that KL was coming with it.
In our case, we acquired AD without any other contingencies tied to the transaction.
Frankly, I think it's hard to compare. The teams were in different bargaining positions. You can't take KL off the PG transaction since he is the one who demanded it, and the Clippers were up against the clock more so than we were. But if pressed, I'd say the Clippers got a little more, but paid a little more too since they gave up a real nice prospect in Shai in addition to all those picks. |
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lakers4life78
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Joined: 09 Apr 2012
Posts: 1959
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| lakersfan8 wrote: | You can’t evaluate Clippers trade without taking KL into the equation. That’s the main reason why they made the trade. They were desperate and there’s no room to bargain from the Clippers side.
The value of draft picks depends on the number. Is it #1 or #21? All I know is we traded our #4, #2 (Ball) and #2 (Ingram). Unless you are sure the clippers draft pick would be at least three top 5 picks, I think we gave up more.
They are currently the best team in the league and they get themselves at least a two year championship window for sure. We gonna face the moment of truth decision next season from AD
We also take the bigger risk. Yes, Paul George might not be on the lineup when they convey their picks but last season they made the playoff without any star player. Their organisation have assembled a competent front office. Unless our owner decides to reach out, we are stuck with Rambis as our consultant. If Clippers lose Paul George and Lakers lose AD, which team do you think would have a better record? Which front office do you have more confident in building a more competitive squad? |
number 2 picks who haven't lived up to their draft position and who are always hurt. Two guys who still are spoken about in terms of potential instead of productivity. Also, Ingram is going to command a pay raise next year.
Believe me, teams would take number 2 picks in the draft over Ball and Ingram.
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lakers4life78
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Joined: 09 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | UKUGA wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | trablos wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Clippers didn’t just give up those assets for PG.
It was also for Kawhi.
So it seems like an overpay when you look only at the transaction details, but in reality, the trade includes Kawhi Leonard. No trade for PG = no commitment from Kawhi. |
You could say the same about us, we gave up the kids to pair two superstars together. We both had the same goal as an end result, pairing two stars as the core of your team. It's also very reasonable to say that if LBJ doesn't come, AD isn't even thinking about the Lakers and we are stuck maxing Dlo and Randle. |
The comparison isnt the goal of pairing two stars together.
It’s a comparison of the transactions.
Kawhi was directly tied to the transaction for PG. I mean he basically told the Clippers get PG and you get me. |
At the base, it is a comparison of the transaction, but posters are allowed to critically think their way to a deeper look, as many have done.
The thread has held together pretty well as many have noted that the Clippers, who were touted as having "2 max cap slots" heading into the summer, wound up over-paying for George to salvage their ability to sign KL.
They did what they needed to do, but it's FAR from what was envisioned at the start of the summer.
Imagine the Clippers sliding KL and Durant into cap space (maybe making some minor salary dumps), while keeping their talented roster from a year ago, along with all those picks.
They were not able to do that. |
Clippers didn't have enough cap space for KL and Durant. They only had around $50M or so in cap space. But either way, that's an irrelevant point at least in terms of the point of the question.
The discussion should be merely within the context and details surrounding the PG acquisition vs the context and details DIRECTLY surrounding the AD acquisition. Going deeper is great, going sideways is pointless unless there are other motives at play here in terms of where we are trying to end up.
When we're comparing the price paid for PG, we have to factor in that KL was coming with it.
In our case, we acquired AD without any other contingencies tied to the transaction.
Frankly, I think it's hard to compare. The teams were in different bargaining positions. You can't take KL off the PG transaction since he is the one who demanded it, and the Clippers were up against the clock more so than we were. But if pressed, I'd say the Clippers got a little more, but paid a little more too since they gave up a real nice prospect in Shai in addition to all those picks. |
Clippers were going to trade an effective Gallinari and that would have given them enough money to sign two max guys and sign Beverly and keep SGA and all their picks
They then could have flipped those assets for another star
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Clippers gave more, but for two players. And they gave a lot more in picks than in current players, so they still have a little continuity. Not sure if George and Kawhi is perfectly complimentary though.
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lakersfan8
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| lakers4life78 wrote: | | lakersfan8 wrote: | You can’t evaluate Clippers trade without taking KL into the equation. That’s the main reason why they made the trade. They were desperate and there’s no room to bargain from the Clippers side.
The value of draft picks depends on the number. Is it #1 or #21? All I know is we traded our #4, #2 (Ball) and #2 (Ingram). Unless you are sure the clippers draft pick would be at least three top 5 picks, I think we gave up more.
They are currently the best team in the league and they get themselves at least a two year championship window for sure. We gonna face the moment of truth decision next season from AD
We also take the bigger risk. Yes, Paul George might not be on the lineup when they convey their picks but last season they made the playoff without any star player. Their organisation have assembled a competent front office. Unless our owner decides to reach out, we are stuck with Rambis as our consultant. If Clippers lose Paul George and Lakers lose AD, which team do you think would have a better record? Which front office do you have more confident in building a more competitive squad? |
number 2 picks who haven't lived up to their draft position and who are always hurt. Two guys who still are spoken about in terms of potential instead of productivity. Also, Ingram is going to command a pay raise next year.
Believe me, teams would take number 2 picks in the draft over Ball and Ingram. |
Sure, but Clippers didn’t trade top 5 picks. |
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toffee
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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Clippers definitely gave more, but i totally understand their move.
We also gave a lot, but i also understand our move.
In the end, both LA teams got what they wanted. |
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UKUGA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | UKUGA wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | trablos wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Clippers didn’t just give up those assets for PG.
It was also for Kawhi.
So it seems like an overpay when you look only at the transaction details, but in reality, the trade includes Kawhi Leonard. No trade for PG = no commitment from Kawhi. |
You could say the same about us, we gave up the kids to pair two superstars together. We both had the same goal as an end result, pairing two stars as the core of your team. It's also very reasonable to say that if LBJ doesn't come, AD isn't even thinking about the Lakers and we are stuck maxing Dlo and Randle. |
The comparison isnt the goal of pairing two stars together.
It’s a comparison of the transactions.
Kawhi was directly tied to the transaction for PG. I mean he basically told the Clippers get PG and you get me. |
At the base, it is a comparison of the transaction, but posters are allowed to critically think their way to a deeper look, as many have done.
The thread has held together pretty well as many have noted that the Clippers, who were touted as having "2 max cap slots" heading into the summer, wound up over-paying for George to salvage their ability to sign KL.
They did what they needed to do, but it's FAR from what was envisioned at the start of the summer.
Imagine the Clippers sliding KL and Durant into cap space (maybe making some minor salary dumps), while keeping their talented roster from a year ago, along with all those picks.
They were not able to do that. |
Clippers didn't have enough cap space for KL and Durant. They only had around $50M or so in cap space. But either way, that's an irrelevant point at least in terms of the point of the question.
The discussion should be merely within the context and details surrounding the PG acquisition vs the context and details DIRECTLY surrounding the AD acquisition. Going deeper is great, going sideways is pointless unless there are other motives at play here in terms of where we are trying to end up.
When we're comparing the price paid for PG, we have to factor in that KL was coming with it.
In our case, we acquired AD without any other contingencies tied to the transaction.
Frankly, I think it's hard to compare. The teams were in different bargaining positions. You can't take KL off the PG transaction since he is the one who demanded it, and the Clippers were up against the clock more so than we were. But if pressed, I'd say the Clippers got a little more, but paid a little more too since they gave up a real nice prospect in Shai in addition to all those picks. |
Given that I raised the question, I think it's highly relevant to the discussion, for people to note the Clippers inability to bring in a free agent, without having to trade talent + a slew of picks for PG.
No one misunderstands that the PG trade led Kawhi to the Clippers.
However, given what was touted heading into the off-season, overpaying for PG is at least a "hit" to what the Clippers envisioned.
The idea was sliding marquee talent into an already talented roster of role players and young talent. They weren't able to do that without a good deal of sacrifice (the "untouchable" SGA, Gallinari, boatload of picks).
Were they going to let go of something for 2 max players to join? Of course. But, for that max player to be George, coming off of shoulder surgery, and being forced into an 11th hour trade where Presti had them over the barrel? They gave up a ton.
And you are right. The Lakers traded for Davis after acquiring Lebron. They didn't "have" to do it.
But, it can easily be argued that they had to do something. Otherwise, continued discontentment could have led to a Lebron departure within a year, which is not at all irrational.
I find it humorous when people say, "You can't look at the PG trade in a vacuum", but then they want to turn around and force the AD trade into a vacuum. It's intellectually dishonest.
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Last edited by UKUGA on Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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UKUGA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| lakers4life78 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | UKUGA wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | trablos wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Clippers didn’t just give up those assets for PG.
It was also for Kawhi.
So it seems like an overpay when you look only at the transaction details, but in reality, the trade includes Kawhi Leonard. No trade for PG = no commitment from Kawhi. |
You could say the same about us, we gave up the kids to pair two superstars together. We both had the same goal as an end result, pairing two stars as the core of your team. It's also very reasonable to say that if LBJ doesn't come, AD isn't even thinking about the Lakers and we are stuck maxing Dlo and Randle. |
The comparison isnt the goal of pairing two stars together.
It’s a comparison of the transactions.
Kawhi was directly tied to the transaction for PG. I mean he basically told the Clippers get PG and you get me. |
At the base, it is a comparison of the transaction, but posters are allowed to critically think their way to a deeper look, as many have done.
The thread has held together pretty well as many have noted that the Clippers, who were touted as having "2 max cap slots" heading into the summer, wound up over-paying for George to salvage their ability to sign KL.
They did what they needed to do, but it's FAR from what was envisioned at the start of the summer.
Imagine the Clippers sliding KL and Durant into cap space (maybe making some minor salary dumps), while keeping their talented roster from a year ago, along with all those picks.
They were not able to do that. |
Clippers didn't have enough cap space for KL and Durant. They only had around $50M or so in cap space. But either way, that's an irrelevant point at least in terms of the point of the question.
The discussion should be merely within the context and details surrounding the PG acquisition vs the context and details DIRECTLY surrounding the AD acquisition. Going deeper is great, going sideways is pointless unless there are other motives at play here in terms of where we are trying to end up.
When we're comparing the price paid for PG, we have to factor in that KL was coming with it.
In our case, we acquired AD without any other contingencies tied to the transaction.
Frankly, I think it's hard to compare. The teams were in different bargaining positions. You can't take KL off the PG transaction since he is the one who demanded it, and the Clippers were up against the clock more so than we were. But if pressed, I'd say the Clippers got a little more, but paid a little more too since they gave up a real nice prospect in Shai in addition to all those picks. |
Clippers were going to trade an effective Gallinari and that would have given them enough money to sign two max guys and sign Beverly and keep SGA and all their picks
They then could have flipped those assets for another star |
Yes.
Excellent post.
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deal
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | PG or KL is playing “PF?” Good luck with that. |
Wing will probably be used in a position-less manner
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| manlisten wrote: | | The Clippers sold their soul for what I believe is a 2 year championship window. After that Lou Williams will be 35 and a free agent, Beverly 33. Harrell is a free agent next season and will likely command a significant raise. . |
Kawhi and George are both under 30 and they finished 2-3 in MVP voting last year so I don't know how you can say the Clips have a two-year window. When you have two guys like that, you can find other pieces to put around them. |
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25092
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| UKUGA wrote: | | lakers4life78 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | UKUGA wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | trablos wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Clippers didn’t just give up those assets for PG.
It was also for Kawhi.
So it seems like an overpay when you look only at the transaction details, but in reality, the trade includes Kawhi Leonard. No trade for PG = no commitment from Kawhi. |
You could say the same about us, we gave up the kids to pair two superstars together. We both had the same goal as an end result, pairing two stars as the core of your team. It's also very reasonable to say that if LBJ doesn't come, AD isn't even thinking about the Lakers and we are stuck maxing Dlo and Randle. |
The comparison isnt the goal of pairing two stars together.
It’s a comparison of the transactions.
Kawhi was directly tied to the transaction for PG. I mean he basically told the Clippers get PG and you get me. |
At the base, it is a comparison of the transaction, but posters are allowed to critically think their way to a deeper look, as many have done.
The thread has held together pretty well as many have noted that the Clippers, who were touted as having "2 max cap slots" heading into the summer, wound up over-paying for George to salvage their ability to sign KL.
They did what they needed to do, but it's FAR from what was envisioned at the start of the summer.
Imagine the Clippers sliding KL and Durant into cap space (maybe making some minor salary dumps), while keeping their talented roster from a year ago, along with all those picks.
They were not able to do that. |
Clippers didn't have enough cap space for KL and Durant. They only had around $50M or so in cap space. But either way, that's an irrelevant point at least in terms of the point of the question.
The discussion should be merely within the context and details surrounding the PG acquisition vs the context and details DIRECTLY surrounding the AD acquisition. Going deeper is great, going sideways is pointless unless there are other motives at play here in terms of where we are trying to end up.
When we're comparing the price paid for PG, we have to factor in that KL was coming with it.
In our case, we acquired AD without any other contingencies tied to the transaction.
Frankly, I think it's hard to compare. The teams were in different bargaining positions. You can't take KL off the PG transaction since he is the one who demanded it, and the Clippers were up against the clock more so than we were. But if pressed, I'd say the Clippers got a little more, but paid a little more too since they gave up a real nice prospect in Shai in addition to all those picks. |
Clippers were going to trade an effective Gallinari and that would have given them enough money to sign two max guys and sign Beverly and keep SGA and all their picks
They then could have flipped those assets for another star |
Yes.
Excellent post. |
Lou, Pat Bev, Zubac, Shamet... do they have enough $ to flip for Westbrook |
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venturalakersfan
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| toffee wrote: | Clippers definitely gave more, but i totally understand their move.
We also gave a lot, but i also understand our move.
In the end, both LA teams got what they wanted. |
Pretty much
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wsjan
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryan1973 wrote: | | What does the Clippers cap space look like for next summer? My worst nightmare would be AD signing with them next year. |
AD would then become the most hated player in LA and in the NBA. |
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paymonM
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Posts: 4399
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| if AD renews next year, then the clippers have overpaid by far. If not, then it's the lakers. |
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UKUGA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | UKUGA wrote: | | lakers4life78 wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | UKUGA wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | trablos wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Clippers didn’t just give up those assets for PG.
It was also for Kawhi.
So it seems like an overpay when you look only at the transaction details, but in reality, the trade includes Kawhi Leonard. No trade for PG = no commitment from Kawhi. |
You could say the same about us, we gave up the kids to pair two superstars together. We both had the same goal as an end result, pairing two stars as the core of your team. It's also very reasonable to say that if LBJ doesn't come, AD isn't even thinking about the Lakers and we are stuck maxing Dlo and Randle. |
The comparison isnt the goal of pairing two stars together.
It’s a comparison of the transactions.
Kawhi was directly tied to the transaction for PG. I mean he basically told the Clippers get PG and you get me. |
At the base, it is a comparison of the transaction, but posters are allowed to critically think their way to a deeper look, as many have done.
The thread has held together pretty well as many have noted that the Clippers, who were touted as having "2 max cap slots" heading into the summer, wound up over-paying for George to salvage their ability to sign KL.
They did what they needed to do, but it's FAR from what was envisioned at the start of the summer.
Imagine the Clippers sliding KL and Durant into cap space (maybe making some minor salary dumps), while keeping their talented roster from a year ago, along with all those picks.
They were not able to do that. |
Clippers didn't have enough cap space for KL and Durant. They only had around $50M or so in cap space. But either way, that's an irrelevant point at least in terms of the point of the question.
The discussion should be merely within the context and details surrounding the PG acquisition vs the context and details DIRECTLY surrounding the AD acquisition. Going deeper is great, going sideways is pointless unless there are other motives at play here in terms of where we are trying to end up.
When we're comparing the price paid for PG, we have to factor in that KL was coming with it.
In our case, we acquired AD without any other contingencies tied to the transaction.
Frankly, I think it's hard to compare. The teams were in different bargaining positions. You can't take KL off the PG transaction since he is the one who demanded it, and the Clippers were up against the clock more so than we were. But if pressed, I'd say the Clippers got a little more, but paid a little more too since they gave up a real nice prospect in Shai in addition to all those picks. |
Clippers were going to trade an effective Gallinari and that would have given them enough money to sign two max guys and sign Beverly and keep SGA and all their picks
They then could have flipped those assets for another star |
Yes.
Excellent post. |
Lou, Pat Bev, Zubac, Shamet... do they have enough $ to flip for Westbrook |
I don't see it.
I think OKC extracted what they wanted out of the Clippers already, and will go shopping elsewhere with Russ.
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BadGuy
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Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 3629
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Lakers gave up more because Clippers effectively got PG AND Kawhi by making that trade. They are not gonna win the chip, but it was a no brainer move for them. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:12 am Post subject: |
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PG left OKC in part because he was getting along with Westbrook.
Now the Clippers are going to trade for RW?
Not buying it. |
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Super Mega Team
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Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 3877
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| Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | manlisten wrote: | | The Clippers sold their soul for what I believe is a 2 year championship window. After that Lou Williams will be 35 and a free agent, Beverly 33. Harrell is a free agent next season and will likely command a significant raise. . |
Kawhi and George are both under 30 and they finished 2-3 in MVP voting last year so I don't know how you can say the Clips have a two-year window. When you have two guys like that, you can find other pieces to put around them. |
Kia NBA Most Valuable Player
[WINNER] Giannis Antetokounmpo, Milwaukee Bucks
Paul George, Oklahoma City Thunder
James Harden, Houston Rockets
KL was 9th with zero first place votes, zero second place votes, 3 3rd place votes, 0 4th place votes, and 2 5th place votes.
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