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ChickenStu
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 Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Nadal easily beat Federer.
Nice run by Roger though. Incredible at his age he went to French Semi's after 4 years of no clay.
I can't think of any other player that can do what RF does.
It's not even a competition of who the GOAT is.
And Rafa, there's no question he is the most dominant clay court player ever. He deserves it, he's such a warrior and knows how to use his topspin to his advantage better than anyone I've ever seen. Many players can hit topspin now. RPMs on forehands are up to close to 4000. Jack Sock. Stefanos. Many of these guys hit topspin and heavy. It's the trajectories and the sort of geometric way Nadal uses the topspin for his advantage is what's amazing. |
Nadal and the "terre battue" is the greatest marriage in sports history LOL. It's like he's one with the clay. His shots and game fit Roland Garros so perfectly. |
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numero-ocho
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: |
It's not even a competition of who the GOAT is.
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It's Rafael Nadal.
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| numero-ocho wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
It's not even a competition of who the GOAT is.
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It's Rafael Nadal. |
I still give the nod to Federer, who will still have 2 more majors than Nadal even if Nadal does win this one. Mainly because Nadal's dominance has so largely come at one event. Still, I do at least understand the Nadal argument: in a one-on-one sport, Nadal enjoys a solid advantage in H2H vs. Federer. Though many of those battles have come on clay, of course.
If Nadal is ever able to tie or pass Federer in majors won, he's going to have an awfully strong argument, though. Even Djokovic is only 5 behind Federer right now in majors. Imagine if Novak can end up winning this event. He pulls within 4 of Fed and within 1 of Nadal. And Novak has a winning record against both Fed and Nadal. |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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LET THE RECORD SPEAK FOR ITSELF.
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numero-ocho
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | numero-ocho wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
It's not even a competition of who the GOAT is.
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It's Rafael Nadal. |
I still give the nod to Federer, who will still have 2 more majors than Nadal even if Nadal does win this one. Mainly because Nadal's dominance has so largely come at one event. Still, I do at least understand the Nadal argument: in a one-on-one sport, Nadal enjoys a solid advantage in H2H vs. Federer. Though many of those battles have come on clay, of course.
If Nadal is ever able to tie or pass Federer in majors won, he's going to have an awfully strong argument, though. Even Djokovic is only 5 behind Federer right now in majors. Imagine if Novak can end up winning this event. He pulls within 4 of Fed and within 1 of Nadal. And Novak has a winning record against both Fed and Nadal. |
It's Nadal's dominance over Federer that gives him the edge. Not only in his decisive head-to-head record (15-23), but his even more decisive head-to-head record in majors (10-3).
Roger has six Australian Open titles but Rafa has beaten him 3 out of the 4 times they've played there.
Roger is the most graceful and incredible shot makers to ever play the sport but he's clearly not a better player than Nadal.
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | numero-ocho wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
It's not even a competition of who the GOAT is.
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It's Rafael Nadal. |
I still give the nod to Federer, who will still have 2 more majors than Nadal even if Nadal does win this one. Mainly because Nadal's dominance has so largely come at one event. Still, I do at least understand the Nadal argument: in a one-on-one sport, Nadal enjoys a solid advantage in H2H vs. Federer. Though many of those battles have come on clay, of course.
If Nadal is ever able to tie or pass Federer in majors won, he's going to have an awfully strong argument, though. Even Djokovic is only 5 behind Federer right now in majors. Imagine if Novak can end up winning this event. He pulls within 4 of Fed and within 1 of Nadal. And Novak has a winning record against both Fed and Nadal. |
Unless Novak falls off a cliff over the next 3 years, he's going to end up the GOAT. I'd argue he is right now, but I respect that there's a legitimate argument that Nadal currently is (though that's mostly because of RG).
Both are also neck and neck in masters 1000's as well, well above Roger in 3rd place there.
I honestly just hope we get another 2-3 years of the 3 best players ever playing each other. This a golden age of men's tennis and is unlikely to be repeated again in our lifetimes. |
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BadGuy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Djokovic will probably overtake both Nadal and Fed for GOAT status. Right now, it's Fed. Nadal is a clay court specialist, and the GOAT of clay. Whenever Nadal faces any adversity on any other surface, he pulls out or does not even enter the competition. Surprisingly, though, Nadal almost never pulls out of clay court tournaments or RG; he's almost always fully healthy for that time of year. Must be a coincidence that he gets hurt during the times of year that competition is not held on his most advantageous surface. The H2H argument is weak because Nadal has largely dominated on clay, and he has a losing record to Federer on all other surfaces combined. When Federer is/was dominating other surfaces, Nadal is either injured or getting knocked out in the first round by scrubs. |
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focus
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:51 am Post subject: |
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GOAT - Federer, but could be either of the other two at the end if they catch him in Slams, or Djokovic gets close enough while being number one a couple more times and winning a French. I don't really see Federer buttressing his claim to it unless he ends up with more Slams than both. Nadal is the GOAT if he catches Federer (because of his head to head with him) and wins 1-2 more on another surface. His injuries probably have prevented him from being the clear GOAT, but that's the expected risk with his style. Djokovic needs to win one more this year to keep his leader of the pack status. I don't see Djokovic keeping up his dominance by the end of next year though. Nadal can easy win another French or two over the next 3-4 years. If he's healthy, he can compete for the others. Young guys like Tsitsipas and Thiem are coming though, and I think that makes it tougher in earlier rounds for the geezers to end up winning a Slam than it used to. I think by end of 2020, a breakthrough win will happen for one or more of them, if not tomorrow.
Too bad Thiem didn't have more rest for tomorrow's final. Nadal's flick forehand in highlights was brutal. Thiem's going to get mowed down, but I hope he pulls off the miracle upset. He'd have to have the match of his life to do it, probably both physically and mentally. Nadal's relentless.
Thought the women's final would be great to watch with the variety and smarts of each finalist, but the teenager was overwhelmed and looked terrible, unlike her last two matches. Good for Barty, now #2. She should be good at Wimbledon with her game, and her confidence has got to be way up there. I expect the teenager to win a Slam or more at some point, and this final should be a good lesson. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| As if beating Nadal at Roland Garros were hard enough, now Thiem is going to have to do it with no days off. Good luck, kid. Nadal is -440 for the Final and I'd expect him to win pretty easily. |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Thiem wins a set in the French Open final then Nadal kicks it in another gear and its all but over. |
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numero-ocho
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| lakersken80 wrote: | | Thiem wins a set in the French Open final then Nadal kicks it in another gear and its all but over. |
It's incredible the stamina Nadal still has playing his style for 14 years on the pro tour. Youth just isn't an advantage against him, especially on clay, where you have to hit so many shots just to stay in the point.
Thiem faced the same problem most one-handed backhand players face playing Nadal. They can only hit so many backhand returns at shoulder level before they lose power and then he's all over those short returns. Thiem tried jumping on his backhand but that didn't work.
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Nadal's won 12 majors on clay court and 6 majors on grass and hard courts.
What does this say about his career? My take:
1) Winning 18 majors and 12 on one surface is one of the greatest accomplishments ever.
2) However, it also shows how Nadal is a highly specialized player. His game is perfectly suited for the clay court but much less suited for other hard and grass courts.
Question - if Nadal ends up passing Federer with these numbers: 15 clay court titles, 6 on grass and hard courts = 21 majors. Does that make him greater than Federer? |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| numero-ocho wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Thiem wins a set in the French Open final then Nadal kicks it in another gear and its all but over. |
It's incredible the stamina Nadal still has playing his style for 14 years on the pro tour. Youth just isn't an advantage against him, especially on clay, where you have to hit so many shots just to stay in the point.
Thiem faced the same problem most one-handed backhand players face playing Nadal. They can only hit so many backhand returns at shoulder level before they lose power and then he's all over those short returns. Thiem tried jumping on his backhand but that didn't work. |
Yeah, I wonder why Federer never adopted the 2 handed backhand. What's the advantage of having a one handed backhand? |
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numero-ocho
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | numero-ocho wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Thiem wins a set in the French Open final then Nadal kicks it in another gear and its all but over. |
It's incredible the stamina Nadal still has playing his style for 14 years on the pro tour. Youth just isn't an advantage against him, especially on clay, where you have to hit so many shots just to stay in the point.
Thiem faced the same problem most one-handed backhand players face playing Nadal. They can only hit so many backhand returns at shoulder level before they lose power and then he's all over those short returns. Thiem tried jumping on his backhand but that didn't work. |
Yeah, I wonder why Federer never adopted the 2 handed backhand. What's the advantage of having a one handed backhand? |
It's not easy to change at that stage of their career and considering Roger was whipping everyone else on the tour with his one-handed backhand back then, I can understand why he didn't. The things I felt he should have done earlier in his career were switch to larger head racquet, adjust his baseline position, and develop a more aggressive backhand service return. He didn't do those things until after he was in his 30s.
I was so impressed with Rafa's net play today. He hit some pretty insane volley winners. I remember when everything at net was a swinging volley or an overhead but he's become a very solid volleyer.
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focus
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | numero-ocho wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Thiem wins a set in the French Open final then Nadal kicks it in another gear and its all but over. |
It's incredible the stamina Nadal still has playing his style for 14 years on the pro tour. Youth just isn't an advantage against him, especially on clay, where you have to hit so many shots just to stay in the point.
Thiem faced the same problem most one-handed backhand players face playing Nadal. They can only hit so many backhand returns at shoulder level before they lose power and then he's all over those short returns. Thiem tried jumping on his backhand but that didn't work. |
Yeah, I wonder why Federer never adopted the 2 handed backhand. What's the advantage of having a one handed backhand? |
The advantage is reach and consequently the footwork for the backhand too, as well as slice variety which can't be done as well consistently for two hand backhanders. Also volleying comes easier to those guys. Disadvantages as you know especially in today's game is stability and defense on that side. Typically the guys who have one hander in today's game have better than usual timing/hands/variety, and come in more. Federer, Kyrgios greek guy now come to mind. Thiem on the other hand is a bull, so strong he can muscle it back on that side, though his touch is not particularly noteworthy. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | numero-ocho wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Thiem wins a set in the French Open final then Nadal kicks it in another gear and its all but over. |
It's incredible the stamina Nadal still has playing his style for 14 years on the pro tour. Youth just isn't an advantage against him, especially on clay, where you have to hit so many shots just to stay in the point.
Thiem faced the same problem most one-handed backhand players face playing Nadal. They can only hit so many backhand returns at shoulder level before they lose power and then he's all over those short returns. Thiem tried jumping on his backhand but that didn't work. |
Yeah, I wonder why Federer never adopted the 2 handed backhand. What's the advantage of having a one handed backhand? |
The advantage is reach and consequently the footwork for the backhand too, as well as slice variety which can't be done as well consistently for two hand backhanders. Also volleying comes easier to those guys. Disadvantages as you know especially in today's game is stability and defense on that side. Typically the guys who have one hander in today's game have better than usual timing/hands/variety, and come in more. Federer, Kyrgios greek guy now come to mind. Thiem on the other hand is a bull, so strong he can muscle it back on that side, though his touch is not particularly noteworthy. |
I don't play tennis, so I'm going to debate by just the eye test.
But it seems to me that the 2 handed backhand requires less footwork so it's more advantageous.
The way I see it, you have to set your body in a certain position to hit the one handed backhand whereas, it seems like you can hit the two handed backhand from many more angles.
So, I'm thinking there's an advantage in the footwork for the 2 handed backhand because you don't have to set your feet up in any specific way to hit it.
For instance, when running, it seems that you can hit the 2 handed backhand w/ more control/precision than the 2 handed back hand.
The point about being a better volley-er is an interesting one. I have no idea how accurate that is as I don't play.
Here's a question - tactically speaking, could Federer have developed a 2 handed backhand later in his career or is that something you must develop early on? |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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^
As was stated earlier, you have more reach/wingspan if you have a one-handed backhand. But the two-hander offers more consistency. It's interesting to note that the 3 in the GOAT debate are also 3 of the best defenders who ever lived, with Fed having the one-hander and Nadal and Djokovic having a two-hander.
Nadal has lost twice in his entire career at Roland Garros. It's just remarkable. And winning 6 non-clay majors is still pretty darned good: a guy like Andre Agassi is considered an all-time great and he only won 2 more than that for his entire career. Nadal has been so good in his specialty--clay-court tennis--that you have to also factor that into the GOAT discussion. In that way, his best has been better than anyone else's best anywhere else. Federer and Djokovic still play great on clay, though, and are better threats elsewhere.
It's an entirely subjective discussion, and that's what makes it so fun. |
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