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Who do you want to win?
YOUR TRIBE
40%
 40%  [ 6 ]
INDIFFERENT
20%
 20%  [ 3 ]
OTHER (explain)
40%
 40%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 15

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jodeke
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:01 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Sure, well, first of all, I would argue that the tendency for people to "root for their tribe" is based more on culture, than on skin color, although, those two are often, but not always, intertwined. That explains why even non-minority Americans will typically root for a minority American olympian before say, a non-minority Russian olympian. (Though, if they are Russian-American, they may root for the Russian over the minority American but that's a function of culture, not skin color).

As examples, you can look at community formation. Vast majority of countries are homogeneous and even when you look at diverse countries such as the U.S., once you break it down to the community level, you tend to get pockets of people living amongst those that share their culture (and incidentally, skin color for the most part).

I think one of the best examples of this is in asian communities. If it was about skin color, you'd see them generally mixed. But usually those communities are not. The communities will usually be cities heavily populated by say Japanese-Americans versus Chinese, etc. Same skin color, different culture.

For the most part, IMO, skin color only comes in to play in the absence of all other information which is rarely the case in a real world environment. This is why you are getting responses from folks that are seeking to apply other contexts.


Skin color is probably the most predominant tribal factor; what you are bringing up is what happens in the lack of that distinction; but the world over, the lighter is almost always favored to the darker.


It pains me to admit this is true in the AA community.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:02 am    Post subject:

I am instant on

Fight Bad

Please stop

I don't see who is fighting

All fighting outside of a profession or unless otherwise in clear self defense is just not right.

Even the words and terminology people use to define what they are doing needs to change.

Fight child abuse
Fight drunk driving
^^both are negatives ...

If we want to remove something support the opposite Within ourselves and others don't get violent

"Anti War rally / Pro Peace Rally"

I have read lately about why Christians gave their vengeance to God.. it can destroy you YOU if you hold it.. or act upon it..

Quote:


“Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction. So when Jesus says “Love your enemies,” he is setting forth a profound and ultimately inescapable admonition. Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies– or else? The chain reaction of evil–hate begetting hate, wars producing wars–must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.”
― Martin Luther King Jr., Strength to Love
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:03 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Sure, well, first of all, I would argue that the tendency for people to "root for their tribe" is based more on culture, than on skin color, although, those two are often, but not always, intertwined. That explains why even non-minority Americans will typically root for a minority American olympian before say, a non-minority Russian olympian. (Though, if they are Russian-American, they may root for the Russian over the minority American but that's a function of culture, not skin color).

As examples, you can look at community formation. Vast majority of countries are homogeneous and even when you look at diverse countries such as the U.S., once you break it down to the community level, you tend to get pockets of people living amongst those that share their culture (and incidentally, skin color for the most part).

I think one of the best examples of this is in asian communities. If it was about skin color, you'd see them generally mixed. But usually those communities are not. The communities will usually be cities heavily populated by say Japanese-Americans versus Chinese, etc. Same skin color, different culture.

For the most part, IMO, skin color only comes in to play in the absence of all other information which is rarely the case in a real world environment. This is why you are getting responses from folks that are seeking to apply other contexts.

Would you say tribe and culture are closely related? Skin color is something you injected, not asked. The question is One of your ethnicity the other of another.


I think we're going to need to define ethnicity. Technically, your ethnicity is your cultural association but it gets conflated a lot with skin color (there was a post above that mentioned it, which is why I mentioned it).
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject:

Wouldn't care if I saw 2 people fighting on the street. Doesn't matter what race the fighters are.

But I do believe boxing's fanbase is the most racially driven fanbase of any major US sport.

Personally, when it comes to professional boxing I root by proximity. If it's an American vs a foreign country fighter. I root for the American most of the time. If it's 2 Americans I root for whomever's hometown is closer to L.A.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:16 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Sure, well, first of all, I would argue that the tendency for people to "root for their tribe" is based more on culture, than on skin color, although, those two are often, but not always, intertwined. That explains why even non-minority Americans will typically root for a minority American olympian before say, a non-minority Russian olympian. (Though, if they are Russian-American, they may root for the Russian over the minority American but that's a function of culture, not skin color).

As examples, you can look at community formation. Vast majority of countries are homogeneous and even when you look at diverse countries such as the U.S., once you break it down to the community level, you tend to get pockets of people living amongst those that share their culture (and incidentally, skin color for the most part).

I think one of the best examples of this is in asian communities. If it was about skin color, you'd see them generally mixed. But usually those communities are not. The communities will usually be cities heavily populated by say Japanese-Americans versus Chinese, etc. Same skin color, different culture.

For the most part, IMO, skin color only comes in to play in the absence of all other information which is rarely the case in a real world environment. This is why you are getting responses from folks that are seeking to apply other contexts.


Skin color is probably the most predominant tribal factor; what you are bringing up is what happens in the lack of that distinction; but the world over, the lighter is almost always favored to the darker.


Nope. Culture is a much more dominant tribal factor than skin color. As I said, skin color is only a factor in some cases when all other factors are either absent or perceived to be the same. Which might happened in controlled settings but never happens in the real world.

For example -- rich black people (and rich people of all ethnicities) tend to live in rich communities, not specifically ethnic oriented communities. Now would they likely live in rich communities that are also more oriented to their ethnicity? Probably.

But when given the choice between lifestyle/cultural fit versus ethnicity, it's pretty clear that people are almost always more likely to choose the former over the latter.

But if skin color were predominant, then rich minorities would live in their ethnic-centric communities. I maintain that it isn't
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Sure, well, first of all, I would argue that the tendency for people to "root for their tribe" is based more on culture, than on skin color, although, those two are often, but not always, intertwined. That explains why even non-minority Americans will typically root for a minority American olympian before say, a non-minority Russian olympian. (Though, if they are Russian-American, they may root for the Russian over the minority American but that's a function of culture, not skin color).

As examples, you can look at community formation. Vast majority of countries are homogeneous and even when you look at diverse countries such as the U.S., once you break it down to the community level, you tend to get pockets of people living amongst those that share their culture (and incidentally, skin color for the most part).

I think one of the best examples of this is in asian communities. If it was about skin color, you'd see them generally mixed. But usually those communities are not. The communities will usually be cities heavily populated by say Japanese-Americans versus Chinese, etc. Same skin color, different culture.

For the most part, IMO, skin color only comes in to play in the absence of all other information which is rarely the case in a real world environment. This is why you are getting responses from folks that are seeking to apply other contexts.

Would you say tribe and culture are closely related? Skin color is something you injected, not asked. The question is One of your ethnicity the other of another.


I think we're going to need to define ethnicity. Technically, your ethnicity is your cultural association but it gets conflated a lot with skin color (there was a post above that mentioned it, which is why I mentioned it).


Again skin color isn't what I'm interested in. You're taking my intent to another level.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:48 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Sure, well, first of all, I would argue that the tendency for people to "root for their tribe" is based more on culture, than on skin color, although, those two are often, but not always, intertwined. That explains why even non-minority Americans will typically root for a minority American olympian before say, a non-minority Russian olympian. (Though, if they are Russian-American, they may root for the Russian over the minority American but that's a function of culture, not skin color).

As examples, you can look at community formation. Vast majority of countries are homogeneous and even when you look at diverse countries such as the U.S., once you break it down to the community level, you tend to get pockets of people living amongst those that share their culture (and incidentally, skin color for the most part).

I think one of the best examples of this is in asian communities. If it was about skin color, you'd see them generally mixed. But usually those communities are not. The communities will usually be cities heavily populated by say Japanese-Americans versus Chinese, etc. Same skin color, different culture.

For the most part, IMO, skin color only comes in to play in the absence of all other information which is rarely the case in a real world environment. This is why you are getting responses from folks that are seeking to apply other contexts.

Would you say tribe and culture are closely related? Skin color is something you injected, not asked. The question is One of your ethnicity the other of another.


I think we're going to need to define ethnicity. Technically, your ethnicity is your cultural association but it gets conflated a lot with skin color (there was a post above that mentioned it, which is why I mentioned it).


Again skin color isn't what I'm interested in. You're taking my intent to another level.


So what do you mean by ethnicity then? If it is not skin color.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:39 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Sure, well, first of all, I would argue that the tendency for people to "root for their tribe" is based more on culture, than on skin color, although, those two are often, but not always, intertwined. That explains why even non-minority Americans will typically root for a minority American olympian before say, a non-minority Russian olympian. (Though, if they are Russian-American, they may root for the Russian over the minority American but that's a function of culture, not skin color).

As examples, you can look at community formation. Vast majority of countries are homogeneous and even when you look at diverse countries such as the U.S., once you break it down to the community level, you tend to get pockets of people living amongst those that share their culture (and incidentally, skin color for the most part).

I think one of the best examples of this is in asian communities. If it was about skin color, you'd see them generally mixed. But usually those communities are not. The communities will usually be cities heavily populated by say Japanese-Americans versus Chinese, etc. Same skin color, different culture.

For the most part, IMO, skin color only comes in to play in the absence of all other information which is rarely the case in a real world environment. This is why you are getting responses from folks that are seeking to apply other contexts.

Would you say tribe and culture are closely related? Skin color is something you injected, not asked. The question is One of your ethnicity the other of another.


I think we're going to need to define ethnicity. Technically, your ethnicity is your cultural association but it gets conflated a lot with skin color (there was a post above that mentioned it, which is why I mentioned it).


Again skin color isn't what I'm interested in. You're taking my intent to another level.


So what do you mean by ethnicity then? If it is not skin color.


Quote:
Definition of ethnic (Entry 1 of 2)

1a : of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background


This is the Merriam Webster definition. Skin color is nowhere in the definition.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:43 pm    Post subject:

^ Yes, I know. The dictionary definition is vague, that’s the point. That’s why I asked. Its vagueness makes answering your question difficult for people. Don’t think we are all operating under the same definition of ethnicity.

An African-American and an Irish-American, per Merriam Webster, can be considered to be of the same ethnicity (common national classification).

Yet I don’t think most people would necessarily view it that way for purposes of this discussion.
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:55 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
^ Yes, I know. The dictionary definition is vague, that’s the point. That’s why I asked. Its vagueness makes answering your question difficult for people. Don’t think we are all operating under the same definition of ethnicity.

An African-American and an Irish-American, per Merriam Webster, can be considered to be of the same ethnicity (common national classification).

Yet I don’t think most people would necessarily view it that way for purposes of this discussion.

You asked my meaning I gave it to you. It's not at all vague to me. It defines the intention of my poll query. You may be operating under your definition of ethnicity, I'm using Websters. I can't speak for most people.

You mention skin color. What would you do if Black Chinese were one of the participants?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ Yes, I know. The dictionary definition is vague, that’s the point. That’s why I asked. Its vagueness makes answering your question difficult for people. Don’t think we are all operating under the same definition of ethnicity.

An African-American and an Irish-American, per Merriam Webster, can be considered to be of the same ethnicity (common national classification).

Yet I don’t think most people would necessarily view it that way for purposes of this discussion.

You asked my meaning I gave it to you. It's not at all vague to me. It defines the intention of my poll query. You may be operating under your definition of ethnicity, I'm using Websters. I can't speak for most people.

You mention skin color. What would you do if Black Chinese were one of the participants?


I thought skin color was irrelevant?

I know you gave me your meaning. My point to you is that people are going to have a hard time answering your question, to a degree sufficient for you, on a term where there is no consensus on what the term means.

Its like if I said ok you have the choice of this or that, which do you prefer?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:45 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ Yes, I know. The dictionary definition is vague, that’s the point. That’s why I asked. Its vagueness makes answering your question difficult for people. Don’t think we are all operating under the same definition of ethnicity.

An African-American and an Irish-American, per Merriam Webster, can be considered to be of the same ethnicity (common national classification).

Yet I don’t think most people would necessarily view it that way for purposes of this discussion.

You asked my meaning I gave it to you. It's not at all vague to me. It defines the intention of my poll query. You may be operating under your definition of ethnicity, I'm using Websters. I can't speak for most people.

You mention skin color. What would you do if Black Chinese were one of the participants?


Hint: you're trying to find reasonable accommodation with someone who is looking to muddy things up. It's a fool's errand.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject:

DELETED DOUBLE POST. jodeke
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Last edited by jodeke on Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ Yes, I know. The dictionary definition is vague, that’s the point. That’s why I asked. Its vagueness makes answering your question difficult for people. Don’t think we are all operating under the same definition of ethnicity.

An African-American and an Irish-American, per Merriam Webster, can be considered to be of the same ethnicity (common national classification).

Yet I don’t think most people would necessarily view it that way for purposes of this discussion.

You asked my meaning I gave it to you. It's not at all vague to me. It defines the intention of my poll query. You may be operating under your definition of ethnicity, I'm using Websters. I can't speak for most people.

You mention skin color. What would you do if Black Chinese were one of the participants?


Quote:
I thought skin color was irrelevant?

It is irrelevant to me. You're the one who made it so.

Quote:
I know you gave me your meaning. My point to you is that people are going to have a hard time answering your question, to a degree sufficient for you, on a term where there is no consensus on what the term means.

Posters have answered the question sufficient for me. Merriam Webster, a accepted source of word definition is my source consensus of what the term means.
Quote:
Don’t think we are all operating under the same definition of ethnicity.

No, we're not. I'm using Webster for a source. What's your source?
Quote:
Its like if I said ok you have the choice of this or that, which do you prefer?

I prefer fact to opinion.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:59 pm    Post subject:

Lol, U Arab, u see an Arab looking foo fightin an Asian looking foo, u don’t know them at all, who side u takin? Well, define Arab first, like Webster dictionary level... u guys are crazy arguer
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:50 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ Yes, I know. The dictionary definition is vague, that’s the point. That’s why I asked. Its vagueness makes answering your question difficult for people. Don’t think we are all operating under the same definition of ethnicity.

An African-American and an Irish-American, per Merriam Webster, can be considered to be of the same ethnicity (common national classification).

Yet I don’t think most people would necessarily view it that way for purposes of this discussion.

You asked my meaning I gave it to you. It's not at all vague to me. It defines the intention of my poll query. You may be operating under your definition of ethnicity, I'm using Websters. I can't speak for most people.

You mention skin color. What would you do if Black Chinese were one of the participants?


Hint: you're trying to find reasonable accommodation with someone who is looking to muddy things up. It's a fool's errand.


Muddy things up? He asked about ethnicity, I bring up black/white, he says that is not ethnicity. Ok, what the hell are we talking about here?!? Lol
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:07 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ Yes, I know. The dictionary definition is vague, that’s the point. That’s why I asked. Its vagueness makes answering your question difficult for people. Don’t think we are all operating under the same definition of ethnicity.

An African-American and an Irish-American, per Merriam Webster, can be considered to be of the same ethnicity (common national classification).

Yet I don’t think most people would necessarily view it that way for purposes of this discussion.

You asked my meaning I gave it to you. It's not at all vague to me. It defines the intention of my poll query. You may be operating under your definition of ethnicity, I'm using Websters. I can't speak for most people.

You mention skin color. What would you do if Black Chinese were one of the participants?


Hint: you're trying to find reasonable accommodation with someone who is looking to muddy things up. It's a fool's errand.


Muddy things up? He asked about ethnicity, I bring up black/white, he says that is not ethnicity. Ok, what the hell are we talking about here?!? Lol

Challenge! Show me where I said the bold.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ Yes, I know. The dictionary definition is vague, that’s the point. That’s why I asked. Its vagueness makes answering your question difficult for people. Don’t think we are all operating under the same definition of ethnicity.

An African-American and an Irish-American, per Merriam Webster, can be considered to be of the same ethnicity (common national classification).

Yet I don’t think most people would necessarily view it that way for purposes of this discussion.

You asked my meaning I gave it to you. It's not at all vague to me. It defines the intention of my poll query. You may be operating under your definition of ethnicity, I'm using Websters. I can't speak for most people.

You mention skin color. What would you do if Black Chinese were one of the participants?


Hint: you're trying to find reasonable accommodation with someone who is looking to muddy things up. It's a fool's errand.


Muddy things up? He asked about ethnicity, I bring up black/white, he says that is not ethnicity. Ok, what the hell are we talking about here?!? Lol

Challenge! Show me where I said the bold.


You said....

Quote:
Again skin color isn't what I'm interested in.


and

Quote:
Skin color is nowhere in the definition.


I thought when we were discussing "ethnicity" you were referring to skin color. I'm not the only one since others mentioned that as well. If not, that's fine, but let's be honest, the dictionary definition is very vague.

As I said, per the dictionary definition, a black American and a white American could be of the same ethnicity due to their shared classification of national origin, but I don't think that type of convention is something we're usually used to using.

Anyway, I like this discussion. I understand what you're trying to get at. I just think it ultimately boils down to perceived group membership, or, in simpler terms, that people tend to have a greater affinity for people who they consider to be more "like them". That can include skin color, but, I think there are enough examples in this world of people making life decisions based on a myriad of other factors such as social status.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:14 am    Post subject:

I misread the OP and would like to change my vote lol

That’s what I get for skimming. I thought this was a bout a sports competition like boxing or mma. But just seeing two random people fight on the street? I’m not pulling for either one of them unless I know who is in the right on the issue
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
^ Yes, I know. The dictionary definition is vague, that’s the point. That’s why I asked. Its vagueness makes answering your question difficult for people. Don’t think we are all operating under the same definition of ethnicity.

An African-American and an Irish-American, per Merriam Webster, can be considered to be of the same ethnicity (common national classification).

Yet I don’t think most people would necessarily view it that way for purposes of this discussion.

You asked my meaning I gave it to you. It's not at all vague to me. It defines the intention of my poll query. You may be operating under your definition of ethnicity, I'm using Websters. I can't speak for most people.

You mention skin color. What would you do if Black Chinese were one of the participants?


Hint: you're trying to find reasonable accommodation with someone who is looking to muddy things up. It's a fool's errand.


Muddy things up? He asked about ethnicity, I bring up black/white, he says that is not ethnicity. Ok, what the hell are we talking about here?!? Lol

Challenge! Show me where I said the bold.


You said....

Quote:
Again skin color isn't what I'm interested in.


and

Quote:
Skin color is nowhere in the definition.


I thought when we were discussing "ethnicity" you were referring to skin color. I'm not the only one since others mentioned that as well. If not, that's fine, but let's be honest, the dictionary definition is very vague.

As I said, per the dictionary definition, a black American and a white American could be of the same ethnicity due to their shared classification of national origin, but I don't think that type of convention is something we're usually used to using.

Anyway, I like this discussion. I understand what you're trying to get at. I just think it ultimately boils down to perceived group membership, or, in simpler terms, that people tend to have a greater affinity for people who they consider to be more "like them". That can include skin color, but, I think there are enough examples in this world of people making life decisions based on a myriad of other factors such as social status.


Nowhere did I say Black and White were not ethnicity. I said skin color is not what I'm interested in. I also said skin color was not in the Merriam Webster definition 1 of ethnic.

You were wrong in your thinking. I wasn't referring to skin color, I was referring to race. I pointed you to Webster
Quote:
Definition of ethnic (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background
you said this was vague. I mentioned nowhere in the definition was skin color mentioned. If you don't understand a age old authority on English word definition it's beyond my expertise to teach you.

How you formed the bold blue is puzzling.

It's been mentioned you're trying to muddy the waters. I'm forming the same opinion. Adopting that opinion I'm going to disengage. Have a nice day.
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Last edited by jodeke on Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:24 am    Post subject:

The waters were already muddy my friend. But yeah, trying to ascertain the subconscious through conscious means is an exercise in futility anyway.
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splashmtn
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:49 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Sure, well, first of all, I would argue that the tendency for people to "root for their tribe" is based more on culture, than on skin color, although, those two are often, but not always, intertwined. That explains why even non-minority Americans will typically root for a minority American olympian before say, a non-minority Russian olympian. (Though, if they are Russian-American, they may root for the Russian over the minority American but that's a function of culture, not skin color).

As examples, you can look at community formation. Vast majority of countries are homogeneous and even when you look at diverse countries such as the U.S., once you break it down to the community level, you tend to get pockets of people living amongst those that share their culture (and incidentally, skin color for the most part).

I think one of the best examples of this is in asian communities. If it was about skin color, you'd see them generally mixed. But usually those communities are not. The communities will usually be cities heavily populated by say Japanese-Americans versus Chinese, etc. Same skin color, different culture.

For the most part, IMO, skin color only comes in to play in the absence of all other information which is rarely the case in a real world environment. This is why you are getting responses from folks that are seeking to apply other contexts.


Skin color is probably the most predominant tribal factor; what you are bringing up is what happens in the lack of that distinction; but the world over, the lighter is almost always favored to the darker.


It pains me to admit this is true in the AA community.
it shouldnt pain you to admit it. dont fault the victim for having residual effects of 100's of years of being taught to hate him/herself and their own complexion while also pumping these same people with fairy tales about how great and beautiful white people are. therefore thinking. the lighter you are, the better you are, the smarter you are, the prettier you are, etc...you are.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Wouldn't care if I saw 2 people fighting on the street. Doesn't matter what race the fighters are.

But I do believe boxing's fanbase is the most racially driven fanbase of any major US sport.

Personally, when it comes to professional boxing I root by proximity. If it's an American vs a foreign country fighter. I root for the American most of the time. If it's 2 Americans I root for whomever's hometown is closer to L.A.
you right about boxing. but I will say this. for the most part I always rooted for the best Boxer or the guy who i liked best in the ring. I never rooted for the black guy vs a latin guy or a white guy just because the guy was black. I rooted for pacman most of his career, until he faced mayweather. why? because may was the better overall boxer(not brawler...but boxing technician). I was a klitchko Bros fan for years. I loved both of those dudes in the ring. even though the younger bro had a glass jaw those boys were great BOXERS.

Now there were times i went with the best brawler (Tyson) over anyone. There were times I went with my favorite latin boxer for his technical expertise (Golden Boy), or old school brawler never back down Chavez Sr.
I mean who wasnt a Roberto Duran fan?

Now if he ran into a better boxer and that guy was just so happen black. hey. i'm going with the better boxer.
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