| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
splashmtn
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 3961
|
 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MJST wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | I actually just went and asked my dad the same question, which of the Lakers young core are showing they're playing ready to help LeBron.
He turned away from his episode of Blue Bloods and said "The ones they sent to other teams."
I'm now enjoying an Outshine Popsicle whilst staring into the distance. |
like JC? |
Russell and Randle.
The only way we'd have Hart in that scenario though is if Ingram was the one we'd sent to Brooklyn.
Guess you could always 2K it to see if
Lonzo Ball
D'Angelo Russell
LeBron James
Julius Randle
JaVale McGee
Bench:
Rajon Rondo
Josh Hart / KCP
Lance Stephenson / Svi
Kyle Kuzma
Tyson Chandler
would have been a better team. |
so basically pops is saying the older guys. because that is truly the only difference between them. and i still say russell aint ready because he's still inconsistent and doesnt play much defense. randle i agree with. but playing alongside bron. i dont necessarily agree with would work. there would be zero spacing unless bron is beyond hot from 3 during the playoffs. or unless randle is money from 3, taking 4 of them per. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
adkindo
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | Why are we continuing to claim Lonzo is a great defender....he has just not been good on defense this year. I do not need any stats to know that. Watching the Magic game and their broadcasters, they were pointing out how the Lakers were trying to hide him, and the Magic was searching for him in matchups. D.J. Augustin looked like an All NBA player against Ball....then Hart, and was only slowed when we put Ingram on him. Ball then began defending Fournier who began to heat up.
He has some defensive ability.....he has the size and IQ to jump passing lanes, and knows when to often double down on bigs.....but overall, he is an average at best defender. I hate DRPM, so pointing it out means nothing to me.....but for those that treated it as biblical last season, it is painting a different picture this year. |
Because we disagree and believe your evaluation is way off. |
we do disagree, but how is my evaluation way off? Everything I said happened.....the stats that I mentioned are what they are if you value them. Just saying my evaluation is "way off" is saying nothing at all. |
I’ve heard you use the “they are hiding Zo on defense” thing before. It’s never been based in reality. I didn’t see the Magic game but talked to people I trust about basketball who watched the game and they said a majority of Augustine’s damage was done on Hart who couldn’t keep him out of the paint. They could be wrong and you could be right but at this point I’m going to treat your “they are hiding Zo on defense” argument like the boy who cried wolf especially considering it came after a game where he was matched up with Lillard and did a good job. But maybe it was that last time and there really was a wolf. I’m not gonna take the time to rewatch a Magic regular season game to find out.
I think your assessment that he just hasn’t been good on defense is way off and if givin an opportunity to watch film with you I could explain why. |
you do not have to watch the entire game...just 10-15 minutes when Lonzo was guarding him. Hart only defended him for maybe 2-3 minutes the entire game....he took Hart to the basket and scored on like 3 straight possessions, and then Brandon's length caused him issues for the rest of the game. To be clear, D.J. Augustin did most of his damage against Ball during the late 2nd and early 3rd Quarter....then Hart took over for a few minutes.
You still have an issue with the word "hide", but I am sorry, that is in fact what they often did at UCLA, last year KCP often defended the more dynamic offensive backcourt player and Ball has struggled this year when given a tough assignment in the back court. We "hide" Lebron all the time on defense....it is what it is. Lonzo does some things well on defense, and they work even better on a team that plays good "team defense", but this Lakers team has not played good team defense, and Ball's defensive weaknesses have been exposed this year. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRoost
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 4798
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | Why are we continuing to claim Lonzo is a great defender....he has just not been good on defense this year. I do not need any stats to know that. Watching the Magic game and their broadcasters, they were pointing out how the Lakers were trying to hide him, and the Magic was searching for him in matchups. D.J. Augustin looked like an All NBA player against Ball....then Hart, and was only slowed when we put Ingram on him. Ball then began defending Fournier who began to heat up.
He has some defensive ability.....he has the size and IQ to jump passing lanes, and knows when to often double down on bigs.....but overall, he is an average at best defender. I hate DRPM, so pointing it out means nothing to me.....but for those that treated it as biblical last season, it is painting a different picture this year. |
Because we disagree and believe your evaluation is way off. |
we do disagree, but how is my evaluation way off? Everything I said happened.....the stats that I mentioned are what they are if you value them. Just saying my evaluation is "way off" is saying nothing at all. |
I’ve heard you use the “they are hiding Zo on defense” thing before. It’s never been based in reality. I didn’t see the Magic game but talked to people I trust about basketball who watched the game and they said a majority of Augustine’s damage was done on Hart who couldn’t keep him out of the paint. They could be wrong and you could be right but at this point I’m going to treat your “they are hiding Zo on defense” argument like the boy who cried wolf especially considering it came after a game where he was matched up with Lillard and did a good job. But maybe it was that last time and there really was a wolf. I’m not gonna take the time to rewatch a Magic regular season game to find out.
I think your assessment that he just hasn’t been good on defense is way off and if givin an opportunity to watch film with you I could explain why. |
It was Hart who got burned by Augustine with the same play. It reminded me of Smush getting burned by Cassell with the same play. Hopefully Hart learned that you don’t try to pick a pocket with ballhandlers. Just play honest defense and stay in front of them |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| adkindo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | Why are we continuing to claim Lonzo is a great defender....he has just not been good on defense this year. I do not need any stats to know that. Watching the Magic game and their broadcasters, they were pointing out how the Lakers were trying to hide him, and the Magic was searching for him in matchups. D.J. Augustin looked like an All NBA player against Ball....then Hart, and was only slowed when we put Ingram on him. Ball then began defending Fournier who began to heat up.
He has some defensive ability.....he has the size and IQ to jump passing lanes, and knows when to often double down on bigs.....but overall, he is an average at best defender. I hate DRPM, so pointing it out means nothing to me.....but for those that treated it as biblical last season, it is painting a different picture this year. |
Because we disagree and believe your evaluation is way off. |
we do disagree, but how is my evaluation way off? Everything I said happened.....the stats that I mentioned are what they are if you value them. Just saying my evaluation is "way off" is saying nothing at all. |
I’ve heard you use the “they are hiding Zo on defense” thing before. It’s never been based in reality. I didn’t see the Magic game but talked to people I trust about basketball who watched the game and they said a majority of Augustine’s damage was done on Hart who couldn’t keep him out of the paint. They could be wrong and you could be right but at this point I’m going to treat your “they are hiding Zo on defense” argument like the boy who cried wolf especially considering it came after a game where he was matched up with Lillard and did a good job. But maybe it was that last time and there really was a wolf. I’m not gonna take the time to rewatch a Magic regular season game to find out.
I think your assessment that he just hasn’t been good on defense is way off and if givin an opportunity to watch film with you I could explain why. |
you do not have to watch the entire game...just 10-15 minutes when Lonzo was guarding him. Hart only defended him for maybe 2-3 minutes the entire game....he took Hart to the basket and scored on like 3 straight possessions, and then Brandon's length caused him issues for the rest of the game. To be clear, D.J. Augustin did most of his damage against Ball during the late 2nd and early 3rd Quarter....then Hart took over for a few minutes.
You still have an issue with the word "hide", but I am sorry, that is in fact what they often did at UCLA, last year KCP often defended the more dynamic offensive backcourt player and Ball has struggled this year when given a tough assignment in the back court. We "hide" Lebron all the time on defense....it is what it is. Lonzo does some things well on defense, and they work even better on a team that plays good "team defense", but this Lakers team has not played good team defense, and Ball's defensive weaknesses have been exposed this year. |
My issue isn’t with a word, it’s with your obsession with perpetuating factually incorrect statements to push a narrative which you’ve done yet again. I disagree and think your assessment is way off. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| adkindo wrote: | | Lonzo does some things well on defense, and they work even better on a team that plays good "team defense", but this Lakers team has not played good team defense, and Ball's defensive weaknesses have been exposed this year. |
Agree in part, disagree in part. I think it is less a matter of his defensive weaknesses being exposed than it is a matter of his defensive strengths being under-utilized. You say that we are hiding him on defense at times. I'm not so sure about that. I have definitely seen situations in which his assignment seemed to take him out of the play, but that's not the same as hiding him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
adkindo
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Lonzo does some things well on defense, and they work even better on a team that plays good "team defense", but this Lakers team has not played good team defense, and Ball's defensive weaknesses have been exposed this year. |
Agree in part, disagree in part. I think it is less a matter of his defensive weaknesses being exposed than it is a matter of his defensive strengths being under-utilized. You say that we are hiding him on defense at times. I'm not so sure about that. I have definitely seen situations in which his assignment seemed to take him out of the play, but that's not the same as hiding him. |
I refer to hiding someone on defense by ensuring they are defending the less dynamic option. It is like when we have Kuzma trying to defend a player that Lebron is the much better option to defend....but we have him on a player that is not much of an offensive threat. Like I said, I think Ball does some good things on defense, almost all as an off ball player.....but when a team is not playing with great effort and team defense, those attributes are diminished, and he is not good at stopping or slowing an individual dynamic offensive player. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
adkindo
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BigGameHames wrote: | | your obsession with perpetuating factually incorrect statements to push a narrative which you’ve done yet again. |
right, I am the one with an obsession in regards to pushing a false narrative relating to Lonzo Ball. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| adkindo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | your obsession with perpetuating factually incorrect statements to push a narrative which you’ve done yet again. |
right, I am the one with an obsession in regards to pushing a false narrative relating to Lonzo Ball. |
Glad we’re on the same page. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| adkindo wrote: | | I refer to hiding someone on defense by ensuring they are defending the less dynamic option. It is like when we have Kuzma trying to defend a player that Lebron is the much better option to defend....but we have him on a player that is not much of an offensive threat. Like I said, I think Ball does some good things on defense, almost all as an off ball player.....but when a team is not playing with great effort and team defense, those attributes are diminished, and he is not good at stopping or slowing an individual dynamic offensive player. |
Okay. I am not an Xs and Os guy. I haven't seen all of the games. With those caveats, I will say that I have been more impressed with Ball's on-ball defense this year than I was last year. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
adkindo
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | I refer to hiding someone on defense by ensuring they are defending the less dynamic option. It is like when we have Kuzma trying to defend a player that Lebron is the much better option to defend....but we have him on a player that is not much of an offensive threat. Like I said, I think Ball does some good things on defense, almost all as an off ball player.....but when a team is not playing with great effort and team defense, those attributes are diminished, and he is not good at stopping or slowing an individual dynamic offensive player. |
Okay. I am not an Xs and Os guy. I haven't seen all of the games. With those caveats, I will say that I have been more impressed with Ball's on-ball defense this year than I was last year. |
ok, I think it is about the same. I think this team's effort and ability to defend as a team has diminished from last season. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dumhead
Star Player
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 3286
Location: Low Post Rate
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Maybe Hart...
Everyone else is too inconsistent.
_________________
"We got a new universe coming and he's going to control all our universes. We're going to put our universes together" - Metta World Peace |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17879
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | I refer to hiding someone on defense by ensuring they are defending the less dynamic option. It is like when we have Kuzma trying to defend a player that Lebron is the much better option to defend....but we have him on a player that is not much of an offensive threat. Like I said, I think Ball does some good things on defense, almost all as an off ball player.....but when a team is not playing with great effort and team defense, those attributes are diminished, and he is not good at stopping or slowing an individual dynamic offensive player. |
Okay. I am not an Xs and Os guy. I haven't seen all of the games. With those caveats, I will say that I have been more impressed with Ball's on-ball defense this year than I was last year. |
Agreed, I think his off ball defense isn't as manic (and I suspect that accounts for the drop in his DRPM, along with the standard caveats about small sample size). But on ball I think he's been much better. I'm really impressed by how well he navigates screens, especially after watching young guys like Ingram and Russell and Clarkson absolutely die on them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
justsomelakerfan
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016
Posts: 10939
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
None of them are really ready but it’s too early to say. I think we’re seeing an adjustment period since none of the young guys really have the same leash they did previous seasons.
Giving it another month to really figure out our core.
Don’t miss DLO.
*Really* miss Randle - might have been our best prospect depending on how things unfold with Lonzo and Ingram
_________________
Austin Reaves
Tweeter: @sarah_dotbiz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Baron Von Humongous
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32979
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tox wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | I refer to hiding someone on defense by ensuring they are defending the less dynamic option. It is like when we have Kuzma trying to defend a player that Lebron is the much better option to defend....but we have him on a player that is not much of an offensive threat. Like I said, I think Ball does some good things on defense, almost all as an off ball player.....but when a team is not playing with great effort and team defense, those attributes are diminished, and he is not good at stopping or slowing an individual dynamic offensive player. |
Okay. I am not an Xs and Os guy. I haven't seen all of the games. With those caveats, I will say that I have been more impressed with Ball's on-ball defense this year than I was last year. |
Agreed, I think his off ball defense isn't as manic (and I suspect that accounts for the drop in his DRPM, along with the standard caveats about small sample size). But on ball I think he's been much better. I'm really impressed by how well he navigates screens, especially after watching young guys like Ingram and Russell and Clarkson absolutely die on them. |
And his off-ball motor/effectiveness may be affected by his lost offseason and adjusting to new teammates/lineups.
_________________
Under New Management |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
matigol
Starting Rotation
Joined: 18 Oct 2012
Posts: 664
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MJST wrote: |
Russell and Randle.
The only way we'd have Hart in that scenario though is if Ingram was the one we'd sent to Brooklyn.
Guess you could always 2K it to see if
Lonzo Ball
D'Angelo Russell
LeBron James
Julius Randle
JaVale McGee
Bench:
Rajon Rondo
Josh Hart / KCP
Lance Stephenson / Svi
Kyle Kuzma
Tyson Chandler
would have been a better team. |
Bench: Hart/KCP???
KCP (right now)>>>>DLO
Hart>DLO
_________________
White guy to white guy alley oop |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oldlakerfan
Star Player
Joined: 15 May 2001
Posts: 2146
Location: Tega Cay, South Carolina
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hart: Since he is a bench guy I would say he is ready because of his defense. If you are looking at him in a bigger role in the playoffs he is not ready. His rebounding has dropped off and he is wildly inconsistent on offense.
Lonzo: If I could guarantee he would play like he did last night I would give him 2 thumbs up but unfortunately he is wildling inconsistent. He needs to be aggressive for the whole game and look for the easy shots that are there for him. What we see in spurts needs to be every game for extended periods of time. He seems like he is figuring that out and I think come playoff time he will be ready to go.
Kuz: He needs to improve his defense and I think the is trying and last night he actually got better. I would also like to see a few more rebounds. On offense he just seems a little off and maybe he deferring to much to Lebron but he has lost his edge and needs to move to be more aggressively fighting to get a good shot. He has a bunch of stuff to fix to be ready for the playoffs.
BI: Gosh I hate to say it but his game has been kind of crappy if you ask me. He is a ball stopper on offense settling for low percentage shots, he doesn't get many rebounds or assists and his defense on the perimeter isn't that good. He seems to have regressed from last year but he has also played out of position most of the year. He seems like he has the most to figure out and the farthest go to be ready. In some ways his versatility may be hurting him as he is being asked to do a lot of different things which is stretching him considerable beyond his comfort zones. Perhaps he will master what he is stretching for now and become a real force by playoff time or perhaps not only time will tell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
al242
Star Player
Joined: 28 Sep 2012
Posts: 3120
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Dumhead wrote: | Maybe Hart...
Everyone else is too inconsistent. |
Hart is extremely inconsistent..... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dr. Laker
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2002
Posts: 17108
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
None of them are ready. They have 60 games to pull it together, but at this tick of the watch, none are untouchable and I'd move any/all if it meant getting back a transformational player.
_________________
On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AncientMariner
Starting Rotation
Joined: 29 May 2012
Posts: 261
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Dr. Laker wrote: | | None of them are ready. They have 60 games to pull it together, but at this tick of the watch, none are untouchable and I'd move any/all if it meant getting back a transformational player. |
preach |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
novadolla
Star Player
Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Posts: 3020
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Hart. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sina
Star Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2015
Posts: 1812
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ingram is learning to be the second man next to James, but his scoring skills are still raw and not efficient yet.
Ball is learning to run the offense, but overpass sometimes. His defense is good but not consistent yet.
Kuzma has sound scoring skills, but not consistent. His shooting skills especially beyond the arc next work too.
Hart is good but not consistent too.
But they’re all on the right track. We can’t ask for more for year 2-3 players indeed.
Be patient! Antetokounmpo is in his 6th year to become who he really is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
waterman40
Star Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Posts: 6287
Location: Central Coast
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
LeBron is leading a young team, and as we are now, are best hope is to play well enough to get into the playoffs. Without a second guy consistently playing at say a 20 ppg level and other decent high-starter level intangibles, we are not a deep run playoff team.
The older guys who have played 3-4 years of college ball are further ahead, so you'd have to say Hart is probably the most playoff ready. Kuzma is second, but really only on offense. Lonzo and BI can play defense but are offensive liabilities, especially if matched up against other teams starters.
I feel like this is still a year of transition, and some of our young players will either not be here next year or they will be playing more support roles, like how guys like Fisher, Fox, Horry, Shaw used to be back in the day. Between Ball, Hart, BI, and Kuzma they could all be good 4-8 guys in your team, if Lebron gets a KD, KL, Beal, or some other high producer.
If none of the current young core can be that high scoring and well rounded #2 Robin, then it will have to be acquired in a trade/free agency. Then I think the question will be who is going to be the #3 player, the Odom, Glen Rice, Toni Kukoc player? Somebody night in night out as a third wheel gives you 15-18 points (must have a jump shot), 5-7 rebounds, 3-5 assists. And any of that young core COULD take that role, its just do they have the fire in the belly to take it?
_________________
LAKERS 2019-2020: NBA World Champions! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
